I Don't Understand How to Escalate

[doriansmelts1]

I'm looking for actual advice from women. I would appreciate your perspective.

Context: I'm a 30 year old heterosexual guy. 

I don't understand how to escalate/flirt in a way that shows women I'm interested in them. I prefer saying it. I like directness because innuendo doesn't make sense to me (no I'm not on the spectrum just bad at wit). When I'm on a date, I can relax and have fun and talk about whatever but I never get a second date. I've since asked women I dated (years later) why and they said that they thought I wasn't interested because I never escalated sexually or they enjoyed the date, they thought I was attractive but I didn't do anything to turn them on. 

My point is I don't know how. I've asked friends but they don't really help. I can't outright say anything sexual because that's just creepy, but I'm not smooth. One of my friends told to be direct and just tell my date that I wanted to kiss her. I did. She got noticeably uncomfortable and that made me uncomfortable so I kept my distance. Others told me to go on Tinder and practice sexting, but again whenever a woman seemed like she wanted to sext I always said the wrong thing and they stop messaging me. 

Normal conversation is easy. Making friends is easy. Escalating is difficult and at 30 I feel like I'll never learn. 

So here are my two questions to women:

What does a woman actually want me to say when she wants me to escalate sexually, either in person or via text?

If the quickest way from point A to point B is a straight line, why doesn't directly voicing something like, "I'd really like to kiss you" ever work? 

 

I do understand that maybe the women I dated weren't all that into me to begin with, but I can't do anything about that. I can change my behavior, so I'd like to understand from a woman's point of view. I've read dating books, I've searched the internet for practical advice from dating coaches, but all of that confuses me and is contradictory. For example, I read that if a woman says no to kissing you or a second date, it just means she's not ready at that moment but would like to eventually. But how am I supposed to get a second date if she said no or ghosted me? And why would I try to kiss her again if she says no. She said no. If she wanted to kiss me or go out with me, but she just wasn't ready yet then why wouldn't she say: "I'm not ready but would still like to see you?"  I'm hoping someone says something and maybe it'll click in my head. 

 

Thank you.

 

--Clueless Idiot

[ccas93]

I know you're asking for women's advice, but as a guy what always works for me is if the date is flowing well, start decreasing the physical distance between you and her and see how she responds with her body language. Esp if you're sitting somewhere. Read her body language and if she seems to enjoy being closer, try touching her (keep it to patting her shoulder or arm or something, not her leg or anywhere that seems sexual) or putting your arm around her. If she likes this, then you pretty much have the green light to kiss.

what you said about yourself reminds me a lot of myself, as women I've seen have sometimes told me they have trouble reading me and my interest levels. Do not start saying sexual stuff or asking for kisses. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by ccas93

[Maldives]

Your dating the wrong woman lol

[doriansmelts1]

5 hours ago, ccas93 said:

I know you're asking for women's advice, but as a guy what always works for me is if the date is flowing well, start decreasing the physical distance between you and her and see how she responds with her body language. Esp if you're sitting somewhere. Read her body language and if she seems to enjoy being closer, try touching her (keep it to patting her shoulder or arm or something, not her leg or anywhere that seems sexual) or putting your arm around her. If she likes this, then you pretty much have the green light to kiss.

what you said about yourself reminds me a lot of myself, as women I've seen have sometimes told me they have trouble reading me and my interest levels. Do not start saying sexual stuff or asking for kisses. 

I mean that's my issue.  How am I supposed to do all that without knowing she wants me to?  Reading body language can be wrong. Like with the woman I told I wanted to kiss. It's why I'd like to ask because then I know I have permission.  But asking apparently ruins it. I also don't understand l why asking is such a bad thing.  We do it in all other parts of our lives. 

Do you want coffee? Can I have a hug? Can you open the door? Will you help me with my homework? I just don't understand. 

 

2 hours ago, Goodguy05 said:

Your dating the wrong woman lol

Yeah, some probably. But I've asked some of them after the fact and they said they were interested but couldn't tell that I was. Regardless, there are things that I can improve upon and that's what I'm trying to do.  

[Wiseman2]

If they're interested, you'll get a second date. If not you won't.

You'll need some social skills to date, not just a game plan to "escalate".

Never ask women who rejected/ dumped you for dating advice.

Be pleasant on dates and don't come off as a horndog so soon 

Try to stand out in thier minds. Horny creeps who want to "escalate" asap are a dime a dozen.

[doriansmelts1]

20 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Be pleasant on dates and don't come off as a horndog so soon

I agree. I'm saying I don't understand what to do in the moment. Most of my dates end up with us having a conversation. I'm fine with that, but women have told me that they expected me to be more physical and I can't tell when because they don't tell me during the date. I'd rather talk about it because it eliminates confusion.

 

So now I just show up and have a good time, which is what I always did before taking advice from my friends and the results are the same.

20 minutes ago, Wiseman2 said:

Try to stand out in thier minds. Horny creeps who want to "escalate" asap are a dime a dozen.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't understand how to create sexual tension. The advice that I read and get tells me it's on me to create it and it makes me uncomfortable. If I don't do it then women lose interest. If I do try to create sexual tension I feel creepy and most likely she does too. So I don't try. If I tell them how I feel they'll lose interest.

 

So I go out and have a good conversation for an hour or so and then ask them out on a second date within a week. No response. It feels like an endless loop. 

People have told me it is just a dry spell or bad luck, but 12 years is a long time. I can't help but think it's need  me.

[Wiseman2]

You don't "create sexual tension". Either they are attracted to you or not.

Make sure you are in decent shape, have good grooming and hygiene and wear some up to date clothes.

Learn some social skills and stop read all the " get in her pants quick"  websites.

You'll have to have some conversational skills. Your theory of skipping the small talk and rushing in for the sexual talk is why you're not getting second dates

Women get that stuff all the time and most find it creepy.

[d0nnivain]

This will sound silly but go watch the movie Hitch.  He offers some insight into body language. 

You do need to ask permission to kiss someone but you have to do it without words.  It follows eye contact & smiling.  You notice her lips & you notice her noticing yours.   You move closer, breeching her personal space.  You keep gazing into each other's eyes.  You lean in & stop.  That is the Q.  You wait for her to lean in too.  That is the affirmative answer. Then you kiss.  

Before you get to the kiss you break the touch barrier in other subtle ways.  Open doors for her & touch the small of her back lightly as she walks through.  Hold her hand across the table.  Hold hands as you walk or tuck her arm through yours.  Brush a flyaway strand of her hair from her face.  Notice her reaction to all of those things.  If she appears relaxed & happy, all is good.  If she's uncomfortable or pulling back, back off.  If those things go well, you can think about going for the kiss later.  

End a 1st date with at least a peck on the cheek & start the 2nd date that way too. 

[introverted1]

3 hours ago, doriansmelts1 said:

I mean that's my issue.  How am I supposed to do all that without knowing she wants me to?  Reading body language can be wrong. Like with the woman I told I wanted to kiss. It's why I'd like to ask because then I know I have permission.  But asking apparently ruins it. I also don't understand l why asking is such a bad thing.  We do it in all other parts of our lives. 

Do you want coffee? Can I have a hug? Can you open the door? Will you help me with my homework? I just don't understand.

Woman here.

When a man asks me if he can kiss me, it makes things so awkward.  Do I say yes and pucker up?  The very asking takes all the romance and sexiness out the moment, possibly because kissing is not the same as getting coffee or doing homework!   Maybe it's just me, but I would much rather he just go for it. 

During the date, OP, touch her hand or forearm or shoulder, and gauge her reaction.  Does she pull back?  Does she reciprocate and touch you at all?  I am not referring to sexual touch!  If she is leaning in to you, accepting and responding to your light touches, odds are good that you can go for the kiss.

All that said, I feel that there is something else/more going on here.  You get a first date but never a second? I have been on first dates that did not include a kiss but still went on the second date (which typically did). If you "never get a second date" as stated above, then my guess is that there is something more to it than just your lack of escalation. Where do you find the women you date?  Are they from OLD or do you meet them organically?  What do you do on a date?

[doriansmelts1]

1 hour ago, Wiseman2 said:

You don't "create sexual tension". Either they are attracted to you or not.

Make sure you are in decent shape, have good grooming and hygiene and wear some up to date clothes.

Learn some social skills and stop read all the " get in her pants quick"  websites.

You'll have to have some conversational skills. Your theory of skipping the small talk and rushing in for the sexual talk is why you're not getting second dates

Women get that stuff all the time and most find it creepy.

I'm not skipping small talk. And I'm not talking about sex. My dates end up being conversations about hobbies and interests.

My friends told me to make a move so I asked a woman if she wanted to kiss me once. It didn't work out. So I never did it again.

The women that I did ask about what happened years later said that they expected me to be more physical. 

[doriansmelts1]

7 minutes ago, introverted1 said:

Woman here.

When a man asks me if he can kiss me, it makes things so awkward.  Do I say yes and pucker up?  The very asking takes all the romance and sexiness out the moment, possibly because kissing is not the same as getting coffee or doing homework!   Maybe it's just me, but I would much rather he just go for it. 

During the date, OP, touch her hand or forearm or shoulder, and gauge her reaction.  Does she pull back?  Does she reciprocate and touch you at all?  I am not referring to sexual touch!  If she is leaning in to you, accepting and responding to your light touches, odds are good that you can go for the kiss.

All that said, I feel that there is something else/more going on here.  You get a first date but never a second? I have been on first dates that did not include a kiss but still went on the second date (which typically did). If you "never get a second date" as stated above, then my guess is that there is something more to it than just your lack of escalation. Where do you find the women you date?  Are they from OLD or do you meet them organically?  What do you do on a date?

I see what you mean, my problem is that I don't want to try to touch her (hand on forearm or shoulder etc...) without her permission. But I can't ask either. 

I mainly meet my dates online. I don't really ask women out in real life because its never organic to me. I talk to women at the gym, store etc...I talk to everyone. That's why conversation is easy for me. Its all the other parts of dating. I like OLD because everyone comes in with a certain level of understanding that people are looking to date. Again, its going back to permission. 

[doriansmelts1]

1 hour ago, d0nnivain said:

This will sound silly but go watch the movie Hitch.  He offers some insight into body language. 

You do need to ask permission to kiss someone but you have to do it without words.  It follows eye contact & smiling.  You notice her lips & you notice her noticing yours.   You move closer, breeching her personal space.  You keep gazing into each other's eyes.  You lean in & stop.  That is the Q.  You wait for her to lean in too.  That is the affirmative answer. Then you kiss.  

Before you get to the kiss you break the touch barrier in other subtle ways.  Open doors for her & touch the small of her back lightly as she walks through.  Hold her hand across the table.  Hold hands as you walk or tuck her arm through yours.  Brush a flyaway strand of her hair from her face.  Notice her reaction to all of those things.  If she appears relaxed & happy, all is good.  If she's uncomfortable or pulling back, back off.  If those things go well, you can think about going for the kiss later.  

End a 1st date with at least a peck on the cheek & start the 2nd date that way too. 

Not knocking the advice, and I will watch it. My concerns are everything leading up the kiss...I don't like invading peoples personal space. I wouldn't touch someone's hand or forearm without explicit permission, but asking is weird. 

I think that's what women mean when they say that they can't tell if I'm interested. 

[ExpatInItaly]

6 minutes ago, doriansmelts1 said:

I see what you mean, my problem is that I don't want to try to touch her (hand on forearm or shoulder etc...) without her permission. But I can't ask either. 

Woman here. 

We're generally not going to get upset if a date touches our hand, forearm, shoulder, lower back and so on. We're on a date with you, so some degree of physical contact isn't likely going to come out of left field and cause offense. Most are of us are not expecting you to ask for explicit permission to make light touches, OP. 

How we respond to those light touches will indicate to you whether we liked it or not - do we lean in? Touch you back? Pull away? Remain immobilized? Even if it's the latter two, you'll know that she probably isn't feeling the chemistry. If she is, though, you will likely sense it in the way she signals her enjoyment at your touch. 

You have to distinguish being cautious and respectful from being afraid. You're leaning too heavily into the fear factor, which probably makes you appear uninterested or unattracted. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by ExpatInItaly

[d0nnivain]

Maybe you need to take a class about body language.  It's not the clearest communication tool but some things are obvious.  You can usually see the extremes -- anger or joy -- on someone's face.  But if you get a bit better at it, you might pick up on the non-verbal permissions.  

Look a single ask or 1 casual touch is not an all out assault.  Being persistent when your presence is clearly unwelcome is another story.  Nobody is advocating that you make a pest out of yourself. 

Because you don't like invading somebody's space maybe your self confidence could use a boost.  

[introverted1]

15 minutes ago, doriansmelts1 said:

I see what you mean, my problem is that I don't want to try to touch her (hand on forearm or shoulder etc...) without her permission. But I can't ask either. 

I mainly meet my dates online. I don't really ask women out in real life because its never organic to me. I talk to women at the gym, store etc...I talk to everyone. That's why conversation is easy for me. Its all the other parts of dating. I like OLD because everyone comes in with a certain level of understanding that people are looking to date. Again, its going back to permission. 

When a man touches my hand/arm/shoulder without permission, it does not offend me. If I pull back or otherwise signal that I don't want him to, then I expect him to read that signal and proceed accordingly. But a light touch on my forearm across the table as he makes a point is fine.  It lets me know he's attracted to me and it gives me an opportunity to signal my interest (or not).

You seem hyper-focused on permission.  Has something happened in your past to make you feel you need to ask for this? Would you be offended if a woman lightly touched your shoulder in conversation?

Edited August 28, 2020 by introverted1

[ExpatInItaly]

27 minutes ago, introverted1 said:

You seem hyper-focused on permission.  Has something happened in your past to make you feel you need to ask for this? 

I was wondering the same thing. 

OP, in all my years of dating, I don't think a man I'm on a date with has ever once asked permission to lightly touch me. It wouldn't even occur to me that he should. If I'm on a date with him, I'm not going to freak out over some light grazes. 

Where did you get the idea that you need permission for this sort of thing on a date? 

[doriansmelts1]

43 minutes ago, introverted1 said:

You seem hyper-focused on permission.  Has something happened in your past to make you feel you need to ask for this? Would you be offended if a woman lightly touched your shoulder in conversation?

No, nothing has happened in my past. I've just always been like this for some reason, since I was a kid. I was also super quiet and shy to the point that I'd could go an entire day without speaking. I've since gotten out of my shell and I have a great life, but dating scares me for some reason. 

 

I wouldn't think anything of it if a woman touched my shoulder or hand. I'd just think she's being friendly.

 

I also do a lot of theater and all physical interactions are super orchestrated, like fight or dance choreography. We do ask for permission and agree to any sort of touching before we do the scene. I'm sure this has perpetuated whatever thats wrong with me, but I know that's not how real life works.

Edited August 28, 2020 by doriansmelts1

[kendahke]

10 hours ago, doriansmelts1 said:

I've since asked women I dated (years later) why and they said that they thought I wasn't interested because I never escalated sexually or they enjoyed the date, they thought I was attractive but I didn't do anything to turn them on.

See, that's subjective.  You can't know a woman's mind and how she will react to you being forward.

I've read countless threads on this site where a guy did attempt to show sexual interest on a first date and each of those women said they were creeped out by it--and they got loads of validation on here from other women.

It's really a hit or miss kind of thing. If they didn't feel you were attracted it's because they weren't attracted to you. If they were, they would have appreciated that you didn't try to jump them on the first date and would have wanted to see you again because they felt safe with you. Going by the numbers of women, as I said above, who recoil at the whole showing sexual interest on a first date, you're  going to have to keep on feeling your way through the dark until you find the woman who doesn't like that kind of banter on the first date.

[d0nnivain]

16 minutes ago, doriansmelts1 said:

I also do a lot of theater and all physical interactions are super orchestrated, like fight or dance choreography. We do ask for permission and agree to any sort of touching before we do the scene. I'm sure this has perpetuated whatever thats wrong with me, but I know that's not how real life works.

Using your passion for theater, go find the script for a romantic play that you have never acted in.  Go to the love scenes & read the scene.  Now in your mind figure out how you would stage what you are reading, especially any kissing.  Hopefully while you were thinking about it, you saw fluid movements, what the audience would see, not the preparation where the scenes were being choreographed.  Try to make your dates more like the finished production.    

[lurker74]

When I first started dating after divorce, I had some of the same issues as you. Now, not so much. I have no problem escalating these days (well, not these days since I am now in what I hope is my last relationship ever!). Sometimes I would escalate too quickly but I found it better to err on the side of too quickly than too slowly. My ability to escalate started small, so here are a couple of tips.

• Escalation starts when you transition from OLD to text or from meeting to phone number. Have a charming way to ask for her digits. Most of the time, that means putting her on a pedestal. So online it's telling her that you feel like you need to get to know her better and saying, "My number is ___-___-_____ if you want to continue this in real life. In person, I ALWAYS give my number, not ask. If she's not interested, she doesn't text and I don't waste my time on someone who is not interested. If she insists, then I hand her my phone, let her put it in, and then text her while I am there. The no BS attitude is a great way to display confidence and confidence is the first escalation.
• When you set up the first date, determine what night (and it should ALWAYS be night) she is available. Then don't ask her what she wants to do. Tell her, "Great, 7:30 at Bar XYZ. We'll grab a drink or five and see how things go."  Be presumptive. Many guys ask what she wants, if such and such works. Again, this confidence will tend to escalate things. Just ask your female friends about this and most will say that a man who plans the date presumptively is 60% of the way into their bed!
• If you've not met her before (OLD), you need to call her before the first date. This is another escalation. My trick was to wait until we were texting back and forth and then ask her what she's doing right that second. If she says nothing much, I would call. I would tell her that I just figured we should make sure we're actual human beings. When she sees your number coming up as a phone call, it will usually cause her heart rate to accelerate because most people don't call. Again, ask your female friends about this. They will say that they don't like getting calls but MOST of the time, what they mean is that it's kind of uncomfortable...but it's uncomfortable because it's unusual.
• On the date...pay attention to her mannerisms. Is she laughing? Is she having a second drink / app / whatever? At some point, you have to break the touch barrier. But don't be boorish. The best place to touch her at first is the shoulder or forearm. Talk with your hands and tell a funny story and at some point, touch her forearm to emphasize a point. 
• Forecast your intentions. If the date is going well, you should probably pursue a kiss at the end to confirm or deny what you've been feeling. Yes, many women do not kiss on the first date but then again, many of those women do if they've felt like it was a great date. So how do you get over the nervousness? Try telling her. Again, don't be boorish...but if the date is going well, try saying something like, "Well, figuring out how to do this should be interesting..." When she asks, "Figuring out what?" Tell her, "The first kiss." Again, telling her in this way can be confident (as long as you're not arrogant about it). And if she doesn't want to, she'll tell you, in which case you now know.

A note about permission. A date does not mean that you have permission to touch or kiss her. But it does (or at least should) mean that you have permission to consider it. The idea that you would "never" touch someone's hand or forearm without their permission is not useful. You have to read the room and understand when it is appropriate and when it is not. If you feel like the date is not going well, then touching her is gross, even on a hand. But if it is going well and you do not escalate, she will inevitable doubt whether or not you are interested. She won't think, hey, he didn't touch me so he's not interested. But the overall vibe she will get is that you are not interested. 

The bottom line is that you need to walk a line of confident but not arrogant. 

[Wiseman2]

Have you considered a few sessions with a therapist to polish some social skills and overcome some barriers to successful dating? You don't have to lie on a couch discussing anything deep, but you could address whatever is making this awkward or uncomfortable for you.

[doriansmelts1]

Hey guys,

Thank you for the advice! This was very helpful. @Wiseman2 I think you're right about the therapy. I've never been. 

I still cringe at the idea of assuming when to get into someone's personal space, but that is really a "me" problem. Its hard for me to wrap my head around it. 

 

@d0nnivain that's a good idea. Its easy in my imagination. I will say that the explicit permission given by each person before acting makes it easier for me to not be afraid. So maybe continuing to use my imagination along with therapy and learning better social skills will help.

 

@lurker74 thank you for the tips. I think I need to take it even slower than what you've suggested. I hate being presumptuous because I feel like I'd make other people uncomfortable. And I'd never respond to someone telling me I have to be someplace without asking me. Thats why I ask instead of telling, if that makes sense. Not saying it is the right way to go about it. I don't want to tell people what to do and I don't think is shows confidence. To me its just bossy/pushy but I'm not a woman trying to date me so I'll trust you guys know more than me. 

@kendahke your post helped me understand that maybe I'm not completely crazy. I've got my issues, for sure. But I get that I'm not everyone's cup of tea and I'd definitely prefer not to do anything sexual on the first date because it makes me uncomfortable. I think if I can get to the point of familiarty, it'll be easier for me. Like, I sometimes end up doing scenes with actors I know and we don't give each other permission to touch each other everytjme because we trust and know the other well. Plus we trust that if someone feels uncomfortable they'll speak up and the other will stop. 

I'm very slow at getting that comfortable with new people and by the time I do women lose interest. So I feel stuck. Again, therapy might be the best course of action. I hope for the best. Who knows, maybe in ten years I might be able to shake someone's hand (joking, its not that bad).

 

Thank you again everyone 

[snowcones]

The word "escalate" in reference to dating a girl originated with PUA (pick-up artists) so maybe you should go back to them and ask how to do it.

[Lotsgoingon]

First of all, you cannot escalate without some risk. You can't know 100 percent that the woman wants you to touch her ... but you can always lightly touch a woman's hand when you're out with them ... friends do that ... the key is to how she reacts. If she likes the touch, she'll grab your hand. If she's not interested, she'll not grab your hand. And she won't give it a moment's thought as long as your tought is light. In fact, the uncertainty of courting is part of the thrill, the thrill is that you don't fully know this other person is into you like you are into them--but you feel it ... and you might feel some fear along with excitement when you're making a move on someone. 

So here's what you need to figure out. The way we guys know it's time to touch someone's hand on whatever is because we feel a nervousness, a tingle, an excitement and we pick up that the woman is in sync with our wit, our talk, our smile ... If you're really working hard in conversation, likely there is no chemistry or spark. Can you remember a time you talked to someone and it felt like heaven? 

I wonder if you've ever really felt the tingle of excitement, the electricity of attraction, because when you feel that, you really don't have to do much but look at the person across from you. 

When I was younger, I would struggle with escalating because I was trying to make a move on women who now I can see ... I had no electricity with and they had none with me. 

Your first step is to figure out when you have experienced a buzz in talking to someone. Just say hello to someone when you feel the electric tingle. Women are very good at responding if they are interested. 

BTW: dating escalation ain't that different from network escalating or making friends. At some point, you meet someone you want to try out as a friend, one of you has to say, "hey this has been great talking. Let's get together. sometimes." And the other person has to say, "great.that would be cool." Someone has to initiate a phone number exchange or email exchange. 

I really think you're going out with people that you are NOT interested in. You're intellectually interested--they look good on paper--but you're not feeling anything when you're out with these women. If you felt something, you would talk about hobbies in a different way than you are apparently doing now. When you are excited, you talk about hobbies with a special energy that shares who you are with the other person and you'll know you're in a flow because you'll feel like the other person is really enjoying your share. 

 

[doriansmelts1]

@ExpatInItaly @introverted1 Thank you for sharing your perspective.  I actually signed up for some online counseling today.  We'll see how it goes.  In the meantime,  I'm not going to be dating anymore and just focus on work. I want to buy a place within the year so I should focus on that. I honestly don't know if I'll change or figure out how to cope, but you sharing your experience and perspective helped me understand a little and gave a glimpse into what a woman might be thinking.