why avoid marriage

[GeorgiaPeach1]

34 minutes ago, Happy Lemming said:

And where did your degree in psychology?

Pretty average through my childhood.  I talked to her this morning, as a matter of fact.

I did leave home on my 18th birthday, but that was based on my desire to be nomadic. 

I have a street degree, thank you very much lol Does she know how you feel about her gender?

[GeorgiaPeach1]

2 hours ago, Woggle said:

Where do I begin? She is just a genuinely all around great person. If I listed the things that make her great I would be here all day.

Aww that is so sweet! 

[basil67]

6 hours ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

With all due respect, shacking up is not the same thing as married.

I have done both.  Marriage quickly failed vs legally recognised, respectful and loving "shacking up" as you disrespectfully call it has lasted 30 years.    I would say that the proof is in the pudding.

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by basil67

[mark clemson]

FWIW I shacked up with my wife for 11 years before marrying. Honestly it was probably the best part.

[Happy Lemming]

5 hours ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

I have a street degree...

That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at a 7-11.

As far as my mother, I don't care what she or anyone else thinks of me.  And I'm sure she feels the same way about my opinion.

[poppyfields]

11 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

I tend to agree. The appeal to me is that it's a spiritual union telling the entire world that you've vowed to love one another through thick and thin for eternity. It's a high ideal to strive for, and I'm all about high ideals. 

In more practical terms, for most, it's a sensible arrangement for raising children, because most people don't want "bastard"/illegitimate children, want to provide a stable framework in which children can thrive.

I agree about children Ruby, but if I may ask, why do you care what the entire world (i.e society) thinks?  

I'm not necessarily referring to you Ruby, but that's one of the problems imo -  people caring too much about what society thinks, and less about what they think (and feel), and as such getting married for all the wrong reasons.  

And then spending the rest of their lives or until they get divorced, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and making each other miserable in the process.  

The happiest couples I know, the most committed, remain unmarried.  

One couple who used to live down the road from me until I moved owned two separate houses right next to each other, they've been together something like 20 years and to look at them you'd think they just met, they were all over each other!  

How many married couples can you say that about, not many.

And to whomever said "shacking up" is not the same as married, shacking up is a very crude way of describing a couple choosing to spend their lives living together and committed, perhaps even more committed than married couples, as they remain together because they choose to versus remaining together because a marriage certificate requires them to.  

Might sound odd, but for me, I feel more emotionally secure in my relationship unmarried than married for that very reason!

My boyfriend remains with me by choice versus requirement, as do I.

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by poppyfields

[Woggle]

We have been married fourteen years and are even more in love now than when we first met.

My in laws who have been married 51 years still act like lovesick teenagers.

It is the level of commitment and not the piece of paper

[Ruby Slippers]

23 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I agree about children Ruby, but if I may ask, why do you care what the entire world (i.e society) thinks?

I don't care all that much. For me, I still want to have kids if it's possible, and I'd only want to do that in the framework of marriage, mainly to create a stable, secure environment for them. In that case, I care about the kids' reputation. I wouldn't want them to be "illegitimate" or to be treated in that way by anybody. If I'm not able to have kids, perhaps we'll adopt, or foster kids.

Even though I'm not religious, I'm very spiritual, and the spiritual union of marriage feels, to me, like the highest ideal in love. It's not really about how I'm perceived - more that I'd like to say to the whole universe: this is my man and now we are one. A "boyfriend" is just not on the same level as a "husband" - to me.

Now, I wouldn't stay married and wouldn't expect him to stay married if we did something really bad, like cheated on each other, murdered somebody, you know, the crazy stuff. I'd probably want to write my own vows that said something like... I'll love you forever, as long as you honor our love.

I'm totally fine with other people not getting married if that's what they want.

[gaius]

6 hours ago, basil67 said:

I have done both.  Marriage quickly failed vs legally recognised, respectful and loving "shacking up" as you disrespectfully call it has lasted 30 years.    I would say that the proof is in the pudding.

Is that because you two at some point both decided that you were it for each other, or is it because you got together, it's worked well enough that you've got comfortable and no other more appealing situations that would be worth upending your lives for have come along in 30 years?

One of the reasons Happy Lemming is a great poster is he's open and honest, he's been with his girlfriend for a long time but while they're exclusive and there seems to be a lot of good there they don't seem to be particularly committed to each other. Which there's nothing wrong with at all but that's the vibe I get from most long term relationships that don't end in marriage. Not all, but most.

[basil67]

@gaius we're totally 'it' for each other and we knew this pretty early on too.    Honestly, having children together was a much bigger commitment than my first wedding.   It's not hard to get out of a marriage, but breaking up a family is devastating for all concerned.  Good parents take the responsibility of parenthood and all it entails seriously. 

Also, it's said that parents of a special needs kid have an 80% divorce rate.  I don't know if it's true, but I know a heap of divorced parents who have SN kids.  But rather than let it rip us apart, we've been each other's strength.

Edit to add: would you ask this question of a couple who got officially married?    Because they too can coast along together just being comfortable....or barely civil.

Edited August 14, 2020 by basil67

[jspice]

54 minutes ago, basil67 said:

@gaius we're totally 'it' for each other and we knew this pretty early on too.    Honestly, having children together was a much bigger commitment than my first wedding.   It's not hard to get out of a marriage, but breaking up a family is devastating for all concerned.  Good parents take the responsibility of parenthood and all it entails seriously. 

Also, it's said that parents of a special needs kid have an 80% divorce rate.  I don't know if it's true, but I know a heap of divorced parents who have SN kids.  But rather than let it rip us apart, we've been each other's strength.

Edit to add: would you ask this question of a couple who got officially married?    Because they too can coast along together just being comfortable....or barely civil.

 It’s very weird that your relationship is being judged like this when marriages are falling apart left right and centre. 
 

You’re far more civil than I would be. 

[basil67]

It's OK.   @Gaius simply asked a question - which I'm happy to answer.   I'm going to trust that he will take the time to listen and understand rather than retort.    There was  previous post which was phrased in a far more judgemental way and I did have to be careful with my response to that.

 

 

[Wiseman2]

What about the wedding/divorce cost ratio?

Does an expensive wedding mean an expensive divorce?

[basil67]

@Wiseman2 not sure if you're being facetious - but divorce costs represent the hostility of the divorcing couples.   If a couple can be amicable and sort it all out with mediation, little is needed in the way of lawyers.   I've done it that way.

Edited August 14, 2020 by basil67

[SolG]

1 hour ago, basil67 said:

@Wiseman2 not sure if you're being facetious - but divorce costs represent the hostility of the divorcing couples.   If a couple can be amicable and sort it all out with mediation, little is needed in the way of lawyers.   I've done it that way.

@basil67 I think a lot of posters here live in areas where marriage is the only 'legal' union. Unlike here in Aus where common-law marriage from cohabitation can be just as legally binding, or even more so.

My own circumstances are a case in point. My xH and I are actually still legally married - separated for more than 10 years now. Six months after separation we went through the mediation process and filed consent orders that legally dissolved and separated all our assets and ties, including all claims to each others' future income or retirement benefits. We never subsequently filed for divorce because there didn't seem to be a point - all the important stuff was done from our perspective. We made a pact to divorce if either of us ever decide to remarry.

He has a common law spouse he's been living with for about four years now. While I'm technically still married to him, she actually has the legal status of being his spouse. And the social status of being his spouse as well. They are very happy and deeply committed, and everyone accepts that his spouse is his spouse, and that I'm his xW. They're about to retire together and move to a very beautiful part of the country.

I personally don't believe that traditionally getting married is the best or only way to successfully express commitment for everyone. I certainly know lots of people in deeply committed long-term relationships sans marriage, but with all the normal trappings that would entail. Each to their own!

 

[basil67]

@SolG my breakup with my ex was the same as yours.  We divided all the assets and I moved on.  But the official marriage meant so little to me that I didn't bother getting formally divorced until well and truly after I'd moved on and was established, complete with new wills and being next of kin with my now partner.   Many here would say that I was holding on to the past in case I ever wanted to return, but the truth was that I felt it was just a bit of paper and I couldn't be bothered.   Had he initiated, I would happily have signed the divorce earlier, but he didn't bother either.

[GeorgiaPeach1]

14 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at a 7-11.

As far as my mother, I don't care what she or anyone else thinks of me.  And I'm sure she feels the same way about my opinion.

Not exactly. It's helped me greatly in situations. 

Mommy issues. I'm sorry to hear that :(

[GeorgiaPeach1]

17 hours ago, basil67 said:

I have done both.  Marriage quickly failed vs legally recognised, respectful and loving "shacking up" as you disrespectfully call it has lasted 30 years.    I would say that the proof is in the pudding.

 

I'm not saying one is better than the other per say, but let's call it what it is. There is no such thing as "considering" yourself married. Either you are or you aren't. Either a woman is pregnant, or she isn't. Either someone is a doctor, or they aren't. 

[Happy Lemming]

10 hours ago, gaius said:

One of the reasons Happy Lemming is a great poster is he's open and honest, he's been with his girlfriend for a long time but while they're exclusive and there seems to be a lot of good there they don't seem to be particularly committed to each other.

As other posters have already pointed out, I think our relationship ("V" and I) works because we want to stay together.  We don't have to... we want to.

If either of us decide we don't want to continue our interaction, we can easily say "good bye and good luck".  I think the ease of dissolving the relationship kind of endorses the fact that we care very much about each other and both want this relationship to continue.

Many years ago, a close friend of mine consulted an attorney about getting divorced.  After getting all of the information, he decided against divorcing his wife.  He cited complete and total financial ruin.  His response... it was "Cheaper to keep her", so he continued to live a miserable life with "the shrew" (his words, not mine).  He didn't want to stay... he had to stay.

 

 

[Happy Lemming]

4 minutes ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

Mommy issues. I'm sorry to hear that

Nope... wrong again, no mommy issues here. 

I don't care about anyone's opinion of me.  (Relative or not)

 

[poppyfields]

56 minutes ago, GeorgiaPeach1 said:

I'm not saying one is better than the other per say, but let's call it what it is.

There is no such thing as "considering" yourself married. 

I missed where anyone posted that.  If they did, perhaps they were referring to the mindset -- both representing commitment.

One from the heart, the other from a piece of paper. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by poppyfields

[Acacia98]

On 8/12/2020 at 5:50 PM, Ruby Slippers said:

Clearly I offended you with my commentary on the way you treated women in the past, given your little counterattack here.

I apologize for offending you, and will leave it at that. 

Wow. I thought you were pretty gentle. If he took offense at THAT, Lord have mercy!

Edited August 14, 2020 by Acacia98
Comma, comma, comma!

[Acacia98]

On 8/13/2020 at 3:42 AM, rjc149 said:

Nearly half of all marriages end in divorce. 70% of divorces are initiated by women, who are then entitled to half their husband's assets, often leaving the man both financially destitute and heartbroken. 

These are American stats, right? They can't possibly apply to the whole world.

[Ruby Slippers]

The stats about divorce are misleading. There are a handful of factors that are strong predictors of a lasting marriage, based on large-scale studies. A couple's likelihood of divorce drops more and more with each of these factors:

• Both graduated from college
• Couple doesn't live together prior to marriage
• Couple doesn't have kids prior to marriage
• Couple has an agreed value system and attends religious/spiritual services together
• Household income over $50K a year
• Both your parents stayed married

Essentially, good decisions of both people in the couple and even their families of origin accumulate, as do bad decisions.

As for common law marriage, most first-world societies seem to be more accepting about recognizing common law marriages. In the U.S. there still seems to be a stigma about it and legal marriage is generally viewed as more legitimate, perhaps because of our fairly strict Puritan roots. 

[rjc149]

20 minutes ago, Acacia98 said:

These are American stats, right? They can't possibly apply to the whole world.

Yes, American stats and probably similar in other Western English-speaking societies (UK/Canada/Australia). In the US, marriage and divorce both work primarily in the woman's interest (hence why both are more desirable to women).