Did he manipulate me into a date?

[lana-banana]

17 minutes ago, Emilie Jolie said:

I agree with you on most things Lana, but not on this. 

I've seen it too many times in both my previous and current job - young, vulnerable women putting themselves in crazy risky situations time and again and takimg no responsibility for it.

Should we in theory be able to trust anyone's word? Yes. Is it realistic or even sensible? No. Is it fair? Also no.

Violetstar put herself in an incredibly vulnerable situation on a thousand different levels. This too needs to be unequivocally spelt out. 

What did happen is that she didn't even check where the concert was and put her safety in the hands of a vague work acquaintance. It is not victim-blaming or lack of empathy than to put it down in black and white.

At no point did I say she bears no responsibility, it's just that she went ahead and did it, and it's over now, and needs to deal with the consequences. I would really hope she's learned her lesson here. 

[poppyfields]

24 minutes ago, balletomane said:

The problem with this is that women are statistically much more likely to be raped by men we know - family, friends, colleagues. Stranger rape is comparatively rare. Unfortunately many people act as if it's the other way round, presumably because it's easier to protect ourselves against strangers, and it would be impractical (not to mention painful) if we started to treat every man we know as a potential rapist. But that is what "taking responsibility" would look like.

Not quite sure what you mean and how it relates to violet's experience or mine, but in any event, taking responsibility for my role helped me tremendously.  As I said, allowed me to feel more in control, less like a victim. 

I did also say in my post that there are many situations in which we have no control over.  Like stranger rapes on the street or a stranger breaking into our home.

But when it's a situation that involves us making a choice, I think it's important to own that choice, it's how we learn for next time to make better choices and protect ourselves.

Worked for me and other women in the group therapy I attended after it happened.

Edited July 14, 2020 by poppyfields

[Emilie Jolie]

21 minutes ago, lana-banana said:

At no point did I say she bears no responsibility, it's just that she went ahead and did it, and it's over now, and needs to deal with the consequences.I would really hope she's learned her lesson here. 

Then we're on the same page . Your 'so what' threw me a little, that's all. 

I've seen it a couple of times when lessons were harshly learned too late, after a lucky escape that was not taken seriously, and would hate for the OP to be in that situation too.  

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Emilie Jolie

[elaine567]

I think there is a tendency to see rejected guys as neutered, neutralised, we friend zone them, we see them as harmless. We tend not to take them seriously.
But as the OP found this guy was far from being out of the game, as far as he was concerned he was very much in the game...

[balletomane]

5 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

Not quite sure what you mean and how it relates to violet's experience or mine, but in any event, taking responsibility for my role helped me tremendously.  As I said, allowed me to feel more in control, less like a victim. 

My point is that Violet didn't get in a car with a stranger or invite a stranger into her home. She accepted an invitation from a colleague, which he couched as her doing him a favour. Most people in that situation would be inclined to trust that their colleague wouldn't lie to them, and they're certainly unlikely to think, "What if he sexually harasses me in the car?" We feel more of a sense of security around people we know. "Taking responsibility" in Violet's case would mean acting as if there is a link between his behaviour and her decision to go to the concert, and there isn't. Should she refuse all invitations from male colleagues unless she's chaperoned? After all, choosing to go anywhere alone with a man could lead to assault.

Telling ourselves that we had some responsibility in situations of rape and abuse is comforting, because it enables us to believe that if only we do the right things next time, we can stop it from happening again. This belief was certainly a huge comfort to me when I was living with domestic violence. It took me a long time and a lot of therapy to realise I couldn't have stopped it no matter what I did. The responsibility for abuse lies with the perpetrator, always. Our responsibility is to take good care of ourselves. With that in mind, I do think OP needs to work on assertiveness, so in future she can walk out of situations that are uncomfortable for her. But this is different from suggesting that his behaviour was linked to her decision-making.

[poppyfields]

@balletomane fair enough, I think I get what you mean.

Not sure I agree all the way, because even though she did know him from work and had developed a level of trust, I still saw some poor decision making, as others on this thread have already discussed.   

Not disputing the fact the guy acted deplorably though, borderline criminal, she should make HR aware and stay away from him!  

But you do make an interesting point, so let me think on it. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by poppyfields

[d0nnivain]

The responsibility does lie with the bad actor.  But when faced with decisions, make good ones.  Speak up.  Don't stick around.  

[rjc149]

Violet -- 

It's been established that you seem to have narrowly avoided date rape. I am glad you did. 

I'm curious -- genuinely curious -- knowing that this guy is sexually interested in you and has been persistently ignoring your repeated rejections-- why did you agree to go to a concert alone with him, and what did you honestly expect to happen?

You, someone with a boyfriend, were just going to enjoy an evening, alone with another man, seeing your favorite band?

He wasn't going to pull any funny stuff? 

He was going to revert to a well-behaved, 100% platonic friend?

The painful awkwardness and incompatibility between you would suddenly disappear?

Because other than you being slightly flattered by his attention and indulging in the validation just a little bit, I'm simply unable to understand why, given all you've stated about him and your view of him before this date, and given that you know he's interested, and given that you have a boyfriend, this would be an appealing and ethical recreational activity. 

This is not shifting the blame on you or trying to chastise you, but as others noted, there is an element of responsibility you have for yourself and your choices. 

A clear message would have been sent to this guy by declining his invitation. 

A clear message would have been sent by ending the night and going home as soon as he started prevaricating about going to the concert. 

A clear message would have been sent by calling an Uber rather than spending more time with this creep in his car. 

In the future, know that you have agency over yourself and the situations you find yourself in. Exercise that agency. Because if you don't, you could end up in a wooded area near a highway rest stop. 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by rjc149

[ShyViolet]

This guy is a total creep, no question about that.  Not to victim blame... but why did you go along with this "date" for as long as you did?  Why did you go to drinks and dinner with him?  You shouldn't have gone out with him at all..... if you were interested in the concert you should have turned down his invitation and then gone to the concert by yourself.  Next time, do not feel like you have to go along with things when they don't feel right.  

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

See, for me, this type of thing is a grey area, because I have done this same thing and have it work out perfectly.. Typically, as guys, when we find success with women in whatever we do, we tend to stay doing whatever grants us success; for a lot of guys, this means lying to you and keeping you at a distance, so you cannot dispel the lies.

If he believes, however, that you too are so far a long that he can be grabbing you, hugging you, this is a problem for me because its the first date and clearly, he has sensed some romantic or sexual undertones at work that you have been oblivious too or he is just misreading you or idk, but its not normal and speaks to him trying to keep you so close, that you dont ask questions or pry for information, you two are "OH WERE JUST IN LOVE!!!" and all of a sudden you stop asking all the intelligent questions you need to be asking.

People who try to keep you too close at first, or at a distance, later on, tend to be trying to horde information so that you can't use said information to see what the truth really is... Regular relationship patterns are honestly difficult to spot, people exist in a place of context, what one person finds sexy, another might find traumatizing, but there are always commonalities that we can see in negative behavior, its always there and people are much more akin to each other than they would like to think.

[elaine567]

56 minutes ago, ShyViolet said:

but why did you go along with this "date" for as long as you did?  Why did you go to drinks and dinner with him?

Because at that time she was 2 and a half hours away in his car..

[poppyfields]

12 hours ago, Violetstar said:

On the drive home, he kept rubbing my legs and my knees and putting his hands all over me and I was just praying for it to be over. I wanted to go home so bad. And, when we got to my house 2 1/2 hours later, he tried to pull me in and force me into a kiss but I pushed him off...

Violet, in no way was this your fault, just wanted to be clear on that.

But if I'm to be honest, knowing what I know now after experiencing what I did, I would have demanded he stop the car, I would have gotten out and immediately called the police.  They would have made sure you got home okay. 

Some might say that's over reacting but I don't think so.  I know the law pretty well and what he did was in fact a form of sexual assault. 

The law defines sexual assault as "any sexual contact or behaviour that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient."

Which this was, no question. 

And it could have been much worse like he could have actually raped you.  As balletomane said, most rapes occur by someone we know (and trust).

Again, not your fault, just something to be aware of going forward. 

Hope you're okay!

Edited July 14, 2020 by poppyfields

[Violetstar]

I'm surprised this post took off the way it did in such a short amount of time. 

So, I keep seeing the word "stranger" thrown around. I want to reiterate this wasn't a stranger, this was someone I've known for 1.5 years and who I've gone out with AS FRIENDS about 3x BEFORE the concert. I took his word at face value that we would be going to a concert and he literally said "My friends don't want to go. If no one can go, I will go alone." So, I felt bad and took the ticket and I took his word for face value not thinking he was LYING about the damn concert. 

Ironically, he's a marriage therapist by the way!! I wouldn't have thought his actions would've been so manipulative and skeevy, 

Now, there are 2 points brought up in these responses that are good.

#1, is I shouldn't have accepted a concert ticket from someone who has asked me out on dates previously. I'm NOT exclusive with ANYONE right now. I was dating 2 different guys and seeing where it goes. I recently dropped one of them so now I've just been focusing on the other one. This is something I have TOLD this co-worker. I told him I'm actively seeing someone, although obviously not exclusive so what I did isn't any form of cheating to those arguing this. I'm no one's girlfriend and I'm no one's wife. But, I also don't think this allows anyone permission to grope me in their car. And, this guy said, he was talking to someone too (which I now believe is A TOTAL LIE), so it was my assumption we would be going as friends because "NO ONE COULD GO WITH HIM," as he previously stated, TWICE.  I don't think I'm ANY kind of victim of assault. But, I don't think it's my fault he started groping me either. In hindsight, I shouldn't have gone out with him and I'll never go out with any man I have no interest in again.

Ironically, I've gone out with guys who I DO have interest in who have NEVER done anything like this. 

#2, being more vocal. I'm kind of quiet person, very introverted with serious anxiety. I think I was just a little bit scared it would go further so I thought by physically brushing him off multiple times, he BEING A THERAPIST, would understand my cues. And, we were going to San Diego where this alleged concert was with a co-worker I thought I could trust. 

But, I want to reiterate, although I SHOULD NOT HAVE GONE TO SAN DIEGO and I NEVER will go out with this guy EVER AGAIN, he KNOWS I have rejected him multiple times as well. And, he still did this. Yes, I shouldn't have put myself in this position which is why I don't see myself as ANY VICTIM but AGAIN, he LIED about taking me to a concert, manipulated the entire event, and then proceeded to put his hands all over me despite the fact that I have told him, repeatedly, I have NO interest in him ROMANTICALLY. And, I see that as him intentionally ignoring everything to get what he wanted from me. 

I blocked him on IG and stopped responding to his messages. I'm not going to report this to HR because again he unfortunately is much more useful than I am to our hospital and I'd like to just forget about it honestly. 

 

[ShyViolet]

46 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Because at that time she was 2 and a half hours away in his car..

Yeah, no.  This is not a reason to go along with this bizarre, creepy date.  You get out of his car and run away, you call a cab, you even maybe call the police.  We all make decisions all the time and we have to take responsibility for our decisions.

[ShyViolet]

10 minutes ago, Violetstar said:

I'm not going to report this to HR because again he unfortunately is much more useful than I am to our hospital and I'd like to just forget about it honestly. 

 

This is what's wrong with our society.  Why are you letting him make you feel like he's "more important"?  You should report his ass.  

[Violetstar]

2 hours ago, balletomane said:

My point is that Violet didn't get in a car with a stranger or invite a stranger into her home. She accepted an invitation from a colleague, which he couched as her doing him a favour. Most people in that situation would be inclined to trust that their colleague wouldn't lie to them, and they're certainly unlikely to think, "What if he sexually harasses me in the car?" We feel more of a sense of security around people we know. "Taking responsibility" in Violet's case would mean acting as if there is a link between his behaviour and her decision to go to the concert, and there isn't. Should she refuse all invitations from male colleagues unless she's chaperoned? After all, choosing to go anywhere alone with a man could lead to assault.

Telling ourselves that we had some responsibility in situations of rape and abuse is comforting, because it enables us to believe that if only we do the right things next time, we can stop it from happening again. This belief was certainly a huge comfort to me when I was living with domestic violence. It took me a long time and a lot of therapy to realise I couldn't have stopped it no matter what I did. The responsibility for abuse lies with the perpetrator, always. Our responsibility is to take good care of ourselves. With that in mind, I do think OP needs to work on assertiveness, so in future she can walk out of situations that are uncomfortable for her. But this is different from suggesting that his behaviour was linked to her decision-making.

YES! That's my point. It's a colleague who is a LICENSED MARRIAGE THERAPIST who I have known for 1.5 YEARS, and who I have gone out with on 3 separate occassions with NOTHING LIKE THIS happening ever before.

I took his word that we would be attending a concert. I felt very comfortable accepting his invitation and on the drive there. Although I ALWAYS BRING MACE, I didn't think I would ever need to use it on him. 

And, again I have told him BEFORE that I am NOT romantically interested in him and I'd like to keep us as casual friends. Something he obviously didn't care to hear.

And, for those saying I have a boyfriend. I DO NOT HAVE A BOYFRIEND. I have gone out on 3 dates with someone I like but it's not exclusive because I'm not in middle school where 1 date means you're automatically exclusive.

But, again, I told him I'm dating someone, not interested in him, only interested in friendship, and this happened. 

And, the thing is EVEN IF WE WERE ON A FIRST DATE, this still IS NOT something I'd be totally comfortable with. Not unless I gave the ultimate green light.

[Ellener]

@Violetstar one of the first things you wrote is you do not like the person. Don't go off alone with someone you don't like- trust your feeling, be honourable and honest too.

41 minutes ago, Violetstar said:

I see that as him intentionally ignoring everything to get what he wanted from me. 

You were intentionally ignoring everything you know about him to get to go to a concert. 

You say he is a marriage counsellor valued to your hospital so I doubt he has zero knowledge of social skills or reading human behaviour, so unless he is a sexual predator ( in which case you need to inform HR as a duty ) you somehow let him think he finally had a chance at a relationship, even if it was the last thing you meant to do.

45 minutes ago, Violetstar said:

I blocked him on IG and stopped responding to his messages.

Good idea.

[d0nnivain]

14 minutes ago, Violetstar said:

Ironically, he's a marriage therapist by the way!! I wouldn't have thought his actions would've been so manipulative and skeevy, 

 

I'm not going to report this to HR because again he unfortunately is much more useful than I am to our hospital and I'd like to just forget about it honestly. 

 

If he's a therapist & was so horrible to you, telling the hospital may save them from a lawsuit if he behaves this abhorrently with a patient.  The hospital may not do anything but at least your complaint will be on record. 

Do not forget about this event.  You will always have to be on guard around him.  Plus you learned some lessons here, I hope.  The biggest one being speak up when you feel uncomfortable.

I get why you initially trusted him.  You work together & he wasn't a stranger but at the 1st off putting event you needed to speak up.  Unfortunately rather then seeing your silence as reluctance  & disapproval, he took your failure to say no as acquiescence. 

 

PS you can't use mace in a confined space like a car.  You get sprayed too & incapacitate yourself. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by d0nnivain

[ShyViolet]

2 minutes ago, Violetstar said:

YES! That's my point. It's a colleague who is a LICENSED MARRIAGE THERAPIST who I have known for 1.5 YEARS, and who I have gone out with on 3 separate occassions with NOTHING LIKE THIS happening ever before.

I took his word that we would be attending a concert. I felt very comfortable accepting his invitation and on the drive there. Although I ALWAYS BRING MACE, I didn't think I would ever need to use it on him. 

And, again I have told him BEFORE that I am NOT romantically interested in him and I'd like to keep us as casual friends. Something he obviously didn't care to hear.

 

Ok but in the beginning of your first post you said that you didn't even like this guy as a friend, he was creepy, he had asked you out multiple times and refused to stop, even though you had clearly said no,, and that you had no chemistry with him even as friends and there was an awkwardness between you and him.  So why would you go anywhere with this person even as friends?  Honestly it was a bad decision to go anywhere with him.  (NOT taking blame off of him.  IF he was posting here, we would rip him a new one)

[Violetstar]

3 minutes ago, ShyViolet said:

Ok but in the beginning of your first post you said that you didn't even like this guy as a friend, he was creepy, he had asked you out multiple times and refused to stop, even though you had clearly said no,, and that you had no chemistry with him even as friends and there was an awkwardness between you and him.  So why would you go anywhere with this person even as friends?  Honestly it was i a bad decision to go anywhere with him.  (NOT taking blame off of him.  IF he was posting here, we would rip him a new one)

I never said he was creepy in my initial post?

Everyone else said he was creepy lol.

I would NEVER hang out with someone I had BAD VIBES with. What's the point? 

What I said was that I am NOT physically attracted to him and that even if I WAS PHYSICALLY ATTRACTED TO HIM, our personalities aren't entirely compatible. Basically, I'm saying we don't connect enough to DATE EACH OTHER.

As friends, we do fine. We like the same exact music, we both own guns and go shooting, and we both love scary movies. So, there's enough for us to talk AS FRIENDS.

My comfort level around him WAS a LEVEL 10. 

I think that might be the misunderstanding here. I LIKED HIM AS A FRIEND, NOT AS A ROMANTIC PARTNER. 

And, I felt comfortable enough to be alone with him a few times. If I hadn't hung out with him, if I EVER felt creepy vibes, I would've never gone out with him. 

[Violetstar]

I probably should've pointed that out in my initial post. 

I'm cool with his friendship but that was it. 

[Ellener]

13 hours ago, Violetstar said:

I really, really, really hope this doesn't come off mean but... he's severely overweight and our personalities aren't compatible whatsoever. There's a lot of awkward silences between us and we just don't get each other.

I think this is what people interpreted as creepy.

 

[Violetstar]

4 minutes ago, Ellener said:

I think this is what people interpreted as creepy.

 

The awkward silences, I'm guessing? 

I don't know, I wouldn't label that as creepy myself. I think everyone's getting information from other comments and assuming it was part of the initial thread. But, that's okay. Just, he was cool as a friend, we had some stuff in common, leading me to hang out with him one-on-one a few times, and then landing me in San Diego in an uncomfortable situation.

But, I'm never, ever, ever, going out with any guy unless he's a relative or I WANT something to happen. And, I do have to be more verbal and assertive. Truthfully, I could've yelled at him and told him to knock it off. I could have embarrassed him and said, "You know this isn't a DATE, RIGHT?!"

I guess I felt a little bit bad for him.

[Emilie Jolie]

30 minutes ago, Violetstar said:

Everyone else said he was creepy lol.

 

How I interpreted creepy was taking you on a car journey 2 hours away from your home under false pretences, on the promise of a concert that was never there, trying to hold your hand, putting his hands all over you and basically acting like you were on a date when you weren't. 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Emilie Jolie
typo

[rjc149]

12 hours ago, Violetstar said:

I have this male co-worker I have known for over a year.  I'm not physically attracted to him whatsoever.....our personalities aren't compatible whatsoever. There's a lot of awkward silences between us and we just don't get each other.  So, even if I WAS attracted to him, we wouldn't be compatible.

Now, he's asked me out a few times and I've said no quite a few times 

Okay, but then

37 minutes ago, Violetstar said:

so it was my assumption we would be going as friends...

...despite the fact that I have told him, repeatedly, I have NO interest in him ROMANTICALLY. 

I felt very comfortable accepting his invitation and on the drive there.

Sorry OP, there are a number of contradictory statements and flip flops throughout your replies. You have nothing in common with him, you can't relate to him, you know fully well he's got the hots for you, it's awkward being around him -- but then you  enjoy his friendship, you're very comfortable around him etc.

It's really kind of hard to gauge how you're really assessing this guy, so, it's still unclear why you agreed to go on this outing with him. 

I guess the conclusion you've arrived at, however, is all that matters. When a guy is into you, and the feelings aren't reciprocated, don't agree to go out alone in the evening with him or do anything alone with him as friends. It wasn't okay for him to feel you up. But let's say he wasn't a creep, and he was a sweet, respectful guy who has feelings for you, it's not right for you to take advantage of that for a free concert ticket or your own ego stroking and excuse it with "I just see him as a friend." 

You leave your bike unlocked and it gets stolen, the thief is the perpetrator and you are the victim of a crime, but telling you to lock your bike is not victim-blaming.