Input needed

July 13, 2020

I can so relate. I remember telling my husband that we couldn't rebuild on lies and that everything needed to be in the light. But he was a coward.

I think it's really important to know if an affair was physical or not because it means you have been exposed to a third party sexually. It's your absolute right to know that. I didn't ask for any details beyond protection (which I took with a grain of salt) because it was about my health, not about wanting to imagine what they did.

What makes anyone a safe partner is their ability to face the hard stuff without deflecting, blame shifting, falling apart, or compartmentalizing. We all need to be on top of our not so helpful reflexes and learn how to do hard things so that we can have full relationships with other people. Your husband's refusal to rebuild on a foundation of truth means there's no ability to grow in these areas. He's basically like, sorry I'm not strong enough to deal with what I did, but here's a bunch of other stuff you didn't ask for to make up for it. And so it kind of makes sense that you would be drawn to a revenge affair as a proxy for him doing the hard thing he should have done all along by giving you the truth. It doesn't make it any healthier but it explains what led you to that point.

July 13, 2020

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

Well, if you know my take on things from posts here, you probably know what I'd say about telling the BH in a case where there are kids involved and he's potentially physically abusive.

I tend to agree with the current tack of this thread that he hasn't yet been fully honest with you and that may be significant part of what's driving your current emotional state and inability to fully reconcile.

Definitely tend to agree as well with the thoughts that either leaving or fully reconciling (if possible) would probably make a lot more sense than a revenge affair that you tell your husband about. You could also unilaterally open your marriage (six of one, a half dozen of the other). But as noted by several folks above - what would be the point? If your end goal is to reconcile, it'd almost certainly be counterproductive; if your end goal is to leave, why bother monkeybranching when you could just do it.

Yes @mark Clemson, first of all Thankyou for giving your input and I know what your stance is and as a former BW I will tell you that my life is infinitely better knowing what happened. That is how crappy I felt when H was distant and I was gaslighted. I would ask him daily on what was bothering him and he would say it is work stress. And I would try to think of ways on how to make his life less stressful. I took on full share of responsibility of the house, kids, relatives.
And then I got sick. I developed a skin condition due to underlying stress. I was almost driven crazy.
But as much as my life sucks now, it sucked infinitely more when I didn’t know. Therefore, I have always wanted to give the OBS the same opportunity to heal.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Subversa

July 13, 2020

1 hour ago, heartwhole2 said:

I can so relate. I remember telling my husband that we couldn't rebuild on lies and that everything needed to be in the light. But he was a coward.

I think it's really important to know if an affair was physical or not because it means you have been exposed to a third party sexually. It's your absolute right to know that. I didn't ask for any details beyond protection (which I took with a grain of salt) because it was about my health, not about wanting to imagine what they did.

What makes anyone a safe partner is their ability to face the hard stuff without deflecting, blame shifting, falling apart, or compartmentalizing. We all need to be on top of our not so helpful reflexes and learn how to do hard things so that we can have full relationships with other people. Your husband's refusal to rebuild on a foundation of truth means there's no ability to grow in these areas. He's basically like, sorry I'm not strong enough to deal with what I did, but here's a bunch of other stuff you didn't ask for to make up for it. And so it kind of makes sense that you would be drawn to a revenge affair as a proxy for him doing the hard thing he should have done all along by giving you the truth. It doesn't make it any healthier but it explains what led you to that point.

Thankyou @heartwhole2, I got tested for STD’s anyway when this came out and thankfully was in the clear.
You are absolutely correct in saying that facing the hard stuff and owning up to your mistakes makes someone safe. It makes the betrayed partner trust and get vulnerable with their spouse.
The reasons are there but I lack the will to do it. It isn’t basically isn’t in me to step out. Hence, I am conflicted. And it makes me angrier realizing that H could so easily do it. It is a vicious cycle.

The longer I can’t muster courage to step out, the angrier I get with my spouse.

July 13, 2020

Just now, Subversa said:

The reasons are there but I lack the will to do it. It isn’t basically isn’t in me to step out.

That’s not a bad thing. It actually says a lot about the person you are and your character.

I wouldn’t have it in me either. I would sooner keep my dignity and divorce than have a revenge affair. I just don’t see that it solves anything - it takes something that’s messy and make it even messier...

If anything, it is an outward expression of the pain you are feeling.

July 13, 2020

5 hours ago, Subversa said:

When I asked him that why don’t I get honesty from you, he said he wants to salvage what was left of our relationship.

Because he knows/suspects that if he was truly honest the marriage would be over.
So instead of risking that, he trickle truths and dodges the questions.
Whilst he rug sweeps, you are left in limbo.

July 13, 2020

2 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Because he knows/suspects that if he was truly honest the marriage would be over.
So instead of risking that, he trickle truths and dodges the questions.
Whilst he rug sweeps, you are left in limbo.

Correct. Yes, that’s my conclusion too. He feels as if it will be the final straw and I will leave. So he tries to win me back trying everything else in the world.

Whereas, it will have the opposite effect actually. I will finally see that he respects me enough to tell me the truth. I am asking this to shame him, I ask so I can start rebuilding.

He has never understood this and never will. I have communicated this openly over and over in the past years.

July 13, 2020

17 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

That’s not a bad thing. It actually says a lot about the person you are and your character.

I wouldn’t have it in me either. I would sooner keep my dignity and divorce than have a revenge affair. I just don’t see that it solves anything - it takes something that’s messy and make it even messier...

If anything, it is an outward expression of the pain you are feeling.

Thanks @BaileyB, for saying that. But I, myself, feel like a coward though.

July 13, 2020

By knowing the truth you can also learn to trust again.
How are you supposed to trust a man who withholds the truth?

Of course he may be right, if you did know "everything" then you may not see any reason to stay...

July 13, 2020

18 minutes ago, Subversa said:

Thanks @BaileyB, for saying that. But I, myself, feel like a coward though.

I wouldn’t. I think the fact that you will not hurt him the way he hurt you/despite the pain you are feeling shows great strength of character.

And, there is a BIG difference between knowing the nature of the relationship and knowing all the details... He can most definitely tell you about the nature of the relationship without telling you all the dirty details...

Edited July 13, 2020 by BaileyB

July 13, 2020

16 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

By knowing the truth you can also learn to trust again.
How are you supposed to trust a man who withholds the truth?

Correct. I will start respecting him. Even if he were to tell me it was a PA.

Again correct, I might not see a reason to stay. However, I should have the truth so I can decide that for myself. As bad as deciding to unilaterally break wedding vows is, withholding truth from me and thus leaving me in limbo is equally bad. I suspect there has been PA, I don’t know for sure.
The decision to stay or leave should be left upto the betrayed spouse. No one should be guilting, lovebombing or manipulating them into staying. They WS lost that privilege the day they stepped out.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Subversa

July 13, 2020

6 minutes ago, Subversa said:

However, I should have the truth so I can decide that for myself.

Of course.
But it is not uncommon for the cheating husband to want the betrayed wife to just forget all about it and move on...
"Not this again, surely you must be over it by now..." can be the attitude, spoken or unspoken.

Edited July 13, 2020 by elaine567

July 13, 2020

2 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Of course.
But it is not uncommon for the cheating husband to want the betrayed wife to just forget all about it and move on...
"Not this again, surely you must be over it by now..." can be the attitude, spoken or unspoken.

But he doesn’t have that attitude. He is open to talk about it, discuss my feelings everytime. Takes care of triggers. It isn’t a topic we don’t often discuss.

July 13, 2020

3 minutes ago, Subversa said:

But he doesn’t have that attitude. He is open to talk about it, discuss my feelings everytime. Takes care of triggers. It isn’t a topic we don’t often discuss.

Yes he is open to talk about it but only on his terms and skirting around the real issue.
How much support do you have outside the marriage?
Is leaving so awful that you are willing to stay with a man who cheated on you for two long years and who refuses to put you out of your misery regarding details and for who you no longer feel any spark.
A man who cheats so early on in a marriage, is probably not that into you.
What reason did he give you for doing it?

July 13, 2020

I can sustain myself. My family would be supportive in any case. My kids love him more than anything in the world. He is an extremely attentive and involved dad. He is a caring husband and day to day we get along well. There are no other issues aside from this. Our families get along amicably. We are both loved by respective families.

We had a great courtship. But had communication issues in the start of marriage. I didn’t put my fair share of trying to solve it and neither did he. Early on in marriage, we faced some financial stress. We faced health crisis with a child. My response to everything was trying to communicate more, I was often impatient and moody. His response was to shut down and limit communication. That infuriated me. I have apologized for my behavior many times.
He might not be that into me. I suppose that could be another reason. His actions have been saying otherwise. Thus, my hesitation.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Subversa

July 13, 2020

5 minutes ago, Subversa said:

My response to everything was trying to communicate more

Is that something to apologise for?

July 13, 2020

Earlier when I talked about your husband not taking ownership by blame shifting, I meant when he blamed the OW for being "manipulative." I'm sure she is, but the question isn't how she acted in the inappropriate relationship they were having.The question is why he chose to have an inappropriate relationship with her or anyone. I try to help OW see this from their end . . . why are you expecting self-awareness and honesty and follow-through from the guy who, if he had these things, surely wouldn't be having an affair at all?

As a BW, to have your husband come to you all indignant that he's realized just how toxic the person he was having an affair with, like, "Honey! Can you believe the woman willing to cheat with me with lied and manipulated sometimes?" is adding insult to injury. Actually, yes, let me introduce you to how affairs work . . .

And I get it. It's really hard for the WS to look in the mirror and realize you weren't the exception to the rule and you weren't having a wonderful, healthy relationship, just in secret. It's hard to see that the affair was a symptom of issues you and the AP have in common rather than an understandable response to not liking certain aspects of your life.

My husband said the OW "seduced me with sweetness." So what, he actually thought to himself, "Poor me, if OW hadn't come along and been so SWEET then I would have been a faithful husband. Damn her and her sweetness. I'd better share this with my wife so she can see just how not responsible I am."? The rationales that people come up with the justify doing what feels good are really sad and ridiculous.

To be clear, these are human tendencies. We all do this on some level. I don't believe that cheaters are some kind of alien species. We all need to work on our self-awareness and ownership.

July 13, 2020

The fact that he cheated so early into the marriage is also concerning to me. This is supposed to be the honeymoon phase of a relationship - the time when he only has eyes for you. But, the reality is that the first few years of marriage can be hard for all of the reasons you have shared above. And, you had some additional challenges.

The red flags here are - when the going got tough, he turned away from you and was easily seduced... And, there are still two really big things he has not admitted/fessed up to - 1). That he had the ability to say no to the manipulative woman who worked so hard to gain his attention 2). That it was potentially more than an emotional affair.

Do you hold his feet to the fire and demand that he understand those two things - maybe. I’m assuming you have been to counselling together to discuss this? If you have, and it’s been this long and he is still unwilling to give you what you need to heal, the chance that he will someday just change his mind and spill the beans are probably slim. Maybe, if you served him divorce papers - that may be what it takes from him to realize just how serious you are...

There are lots of men who are wonderful fathers but terrible husbands. And, it doesn’t even sound like he is a terrible husband. He has tried to make amends and be transparent - but as Elaine says, only on his terms... Only you can decide if this is enough...

Edited July 13, 2020 by BaileyB

July 13, 2020

I have a friend whose husband cheated when their oldest was a baby, and another whose husband cheated when they'd been married one year. They're both doing well in reconciliation. I think that people can grow and change at any point in life, but the older you are, the more set in your ways you might be, and the less en vogue it may be to do self-help stuff or speak openly about adultery.

And I bristle at the idea that feeling in love should keep someone from cheating (the honeymoon phase idea) because that's a fallacy that cheaters use to justify cheating. And after the affair, when I asked my husband why I should trust him not to have another affair, he would say, "Because I feel so in love with you now!" And I would point out that if his fidelity is based on how he feels then that's not very reassuring at all.

I don't want to add to your feelings of shame over not leaving. As a mother of young kids it made sense to me to see if things could be restored and rebuilt. I also would never say "he's just not that into you." He was just more into himself. The question is whether he's changed.

July 13, 2020

50 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Is that something to apologise for?

No.

Okay. It is tough to even admit this infront of internet strangers. I was sometimes short, rude, inattentive and dismissive. I apologized for that (that isn't to say I gave him a pass for cheating). I have asked him to work more on communication and we have made some progress. (He admits that cheating should never have cheated, despite how many issues we had).

42 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

The fact that he cheated so early into the marriage is also concerning to me.

Cheating occurred about five years into our relationship. Short time after marriage. I have deliberately left out exact timelines for privacy sake. I am sorry about that.

He has admitted that he was weak and just fell for her. Says it is inexcusable and he blames no one but himself. He doesn't admit to the PA though and it is a huge bone of contention between us.

He denied the PA during counselling as well. I asked him if he is willing to take a polygraph test to answer that question. He said he is and willing to take me up on that anytime. I didn't schedule the test because I got so frustrated with him. I now realize it was a mistake and I should have taken him up on that.

July 13, 2020

1 hour ago, heartwhole2 said:

The question is why he chose to have an inappropriate relationship with her or anyone.

Its comical how they try to blame the AP for their own shortcomings. I feel I haven't explained myself fully, i apologize I was typing on phone earlier and don't do well with typing long sentences on it.

I rejected this notion that the MOW being manipulative had anything to do with his deceit. At first he did try to blame her but when I didn't let him shift the blame on her he stopped. This was initial days after discovery. Later on, he said that he no longer knows who he is since he though he was never capable of doing this. Whatever the reason. He has since maintained that he has lost a part of his identity, a part of himself and that he wants to build himself to be better.

July 13, 2020

2 minutes ago, Subversa said:

He has since maintained that he has lost a part of his identity, a part of himself and that he wants to build himself to be better.

But he has not fully done this. If so, you would be in a better place.

I too find it funny that the blame switches to the AP. As if no choices have been made. But good on you on keeping it real with him!

July 13, 2020

9 minutes ago, Subversa said:

He has admitted that he was weak and just fell for her. Says it is inexcusable and he blames no one but himself. He doesn't admit to the PA though and it is a huge bone of contention between us.

He must admit to it. He has already been caught cheating on you and admits to it. Would the PA make a whole world of difference? An affair is an affair. Seems like an easier way to help soothe you and begin repairing the damaged done. Baffled, truly baffled that he will not confess all to you. Seems that you will not get full honesty ..

July 13, 2020

26 minutes ago, heartwhole2 said:

And after the affair, when I asked my husband why I should trust him not to have another affair, he would say, "Because I feel so in love with you now!"

First want to thankyou for your extremely compassionate reply. I just felt a little less alone. Prayers your way.

Its funny he should say that. Did you ask what he planned to do when you grew older together as a couple? Did he tell you that he realized you are infinitely better than his AP?

I agree that feelings/limerence/being in love has as little to do with fidelity as cheating has to do with the fault of your spouse/partner.

When I ask him how can i trust him now after all this, he says that he wants to be better. Not just for me but for himself. He says he will show me that I can trust him with his actions.

July 13, 2020

2 minutes ago, Stevnx3 said:

He has already been caught cheating on you and admits to it. Would the PA make a whole world of difference? An affair is an affair.

Some men(usually) believe an emotional affair is not really cheating and that only a physical affair is a real affair.
By not admitting to Subversa he had a physical affair, then he thinks she will view him in a better light, and he can pretend it never really happened.
He is not that man...
Of course it may not have been physical but 2 years... unlikely IMO.

July 13, 2020

10 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

Some men(usually) believe an emotional affair is not really cheating and that only a physical affair is a real affair.
By not admitting to Subversa he had a physical affair, then he thinks she will view him in a better light, and he can pretend it never really happened.
He is not that man...
Of course it may not have been physical but 2 years... unlikely IMO.

I agree. I am sure that he was physical with her at some point. I mean, he traveled to her country for crying out loud! But whether physical or emotional an affair is an affair.

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