I want to save my marriage

[Ghent]

Hello,

 

My wife and I are currently seperated for 1.5 months. I have been moved out for about 45 days, and until last Friday, we hadn't spoken in about 20 days. I am 28 and she is 26, and we have been together for 4 years and 10 months, married for just over 2 years. She is (to my knowledge) actively seeking a divorce. I am not certain of the progress of the divorce, but she has told me that she has spoken to lawyers. We have not been speaking much lately, but when we do speak, all she wants to talk about are the logistics of getting a divorce ("Do we want lawyers?", "Do you need to come by and get some stuff?")

 

To make a long, long story short, my wife left me because I neglected her heavily. Our communication was very poor and I was not an attentive husband. I would frequently spend all my time playing video games (I'm a computer geek) and working, while she was a stay at home wife and full time student. I would ask sometimes if I spent enough time with her and she would always placate me. I realize now I should've read between the lines and understood that if I had to ask, then I wasn't.

 

The week before the seperation, we started fighting pretty heavily. Then that fateful weekend, we got into a massive argument in front of other people, and we both flew off the deep end, me moreso than her. I humiliated and embarrassed her in front of friends and neighbors, and completely disrespected her. It was all the anger and pent up frustrations from the week of arguing.

 

That night, she never came home. The next day, she came home, packed a bag and said we needed to seperate and probably divorce. I have been torn apart since. She tells me now that she's always been unhappy because I didn't spend enough time with her, and that we can't be together because she can't trust me to change and that I have issues that can't be solved when we're together. She also claims that she was an 'enabler' in these behaviors.

 

The day she left I started therapy, once a week, but she will not come. I know she is angry, deeply hurt, and probably feeling betrayed and disrespected. I've also given up and gotten rid of all computers except my work laptop. I no longer want to live that lifestyle now knowing that it was causing such emotional distress in our relationship. I have been reading any and all relationship help books and learned a lot about the mistakes that both she and I made. I've done Dr. Phil's Relationshipp Rescue and Gary Smalley's various books as well as several others. I see so many ways to improve our relationship, and I truly believe that if she can just open up once more I can be the man she needs me to be. The man I want to be.

 

I spoke to her for the first time in awhile last Friday. She said she wants to get together but really only to talk about divorce issues. I am torn apart. I believe she still loves me, but hasn't forgiven me. I don't know what to do. Generally I would try to give her as much space as she needs, but now I wonder if I've given her too much. I feel that time is running out because she is in the process of talking to lawyers and possibly filing, but at the same time I don't want to pressure her with constant advances. All the books say to work on my core, which I have, and to show love and affection to her as I want it to be. So I want to talk to her and tell her I love her, and write her letters and cards, and make her gifts. But I am terrified that by doing all this that I will make it worse. I truly believe that she just hasn't dealt with it and has pushed it aside. She goes out all the time with her friends and doesn't wear her ring and calls herself divorced.

 

My heart is torn out and destroyed. I am losing hope and faith. I believe this woman loves me and if she can just forgive me a little bit I can make amends and show her that I can support and love her in the manner that she needs, but I do not know how to open her up. I can't think of much else right now, so I will write more after responses. Thank you.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Hey Ghentje,

 

I'm really sorry to hear about your situation. I don't have expertise with marriage. But I'm gonna share my thoughts from my own relationship experience to give you something to go along with until a real expert comes along.

 

From what you say, you're in the right frame of mind to make this work. A good dose of repentance and humility goes a long way.

 

I don't think chasing her is going to do any good though. If you lose your dog or your cat, chasing is the worst thing you can do. You have to entice them back. And part of this is looking safe and attractive.

 

And abusive men always swear they'll do better. Wise women are wary of big promises.

 

So don't chase. Instead, let her do the contacting.

 

And don't make extravagent promises or start saying what you'll do. You could ask her what it would take to put this back together. But do this in a way that is businesslike. Not "desperate and I'll promise anything now", because it reduces the credibility of you delivering.

 

In the meantime, continue to work on your issues. Given time and space, she will cool down. And become curious.

[slubberdegullion]

...I would ask sometimes if I spent enough time with her and she would always placate me. I realize now I should've read between the lines...

If I understand this correctly, you were trying to be attentive, or at least aware that she may have concerns that you and she weren't spending enough time together. But when you asked her, she either said something like, "Oh, everything's fine" or "Yes, I'm OK," which, in wimmenspeak, means "I'm really pissed off and you have to guess why."

 

Now, in anticipation of the flaming, yes you probably should have been more attentive. After all, why diddle about on the computer when you've got a warm, loving partner waiting for you with open arms (and other appendages, hopefully )?

 

In short, from where I sit you're both at fault; you, for not spending quality time with her, and she because she essentially lied about her needs.

 

But it is not too late.

 

IMHO, ReluctantRomeo is right on the money. Making promises at this stage will probably do more harm than good. But if you make a plan - for instance, get her input (truthful input this time) on what her expectations are, and what your work and other needs are as well - then you'll be well on the way to a positive reconciliation.

 

As for making contact, this is where RR and I disagree. Women tend to read meanings into things that may or may not be there, so if you cease all contact she may interpret that as if you've shut her out of your life and don't want her anymore.

 

My suggestion would be to maintain regular contact - not daily, unless there's some sort of emergency - and when doing so work on a schedule to contact each other. It sounds very Aristotilean and not very romantic, but it's probably the only way to bypass the bogeyman of misinterpreted meanings.

 

There IS hope here. Lots of hope. So stay positive.

[Ghent]

If I understand this correctly, you were trying to be attentive, or at least aware that she may have concerns that you and she weren't spending enough time together. But when you asked her, she either said something like, "Oh, everything's fine" or "Yes, I'm OK," which, in wimmenspeak, means "I'm really pissed off and you have to guess why."

 

Now, in anticipation of the flaming, yes you probably should have been more attentive. After all, why diddle about on the computer when you've got a warm, loving partner waiting for you with open arms (and other appendages, hopefully )?

 

I fully agree, I won't pretend to have been anything less than stupid for making the choices I did. Warm, loving wife vs computer games with friends... hrm, decisions, decisions...

 

In short, from where I sit you're both at fault; you, for not spending quality time with her, and she because she essentially lied about her needs.

 

But it is not too late.

 

IMHO, ReluctantRomeo is right on the money. Making promises at this stage will probably do more harm than good. But if you make a plan - for instance, get her input (truthful input this time) on what her expectations are, and what your work and other needs are as well - then you'll be well on the way to a positive reconciliation.

 

As for making contact, this is where RR and I disagree. Women tend to read meanings into things that may or may not be there, so if you cease all contact she may interpret that as if you've shut her out of your life and don't want her anymore.

 

My suggestion would be to maintain regular contact - not daily, unless there's some sort of emergency - and when doing so work on a schedule to contact each other. It sounds very Aristotilean and not very romantic, but it's probably the only way to bypass the bogeyman of misinterpreted meanings.

 

There IS hope here. Lots of hope. So stay positive.

 

The problem is twofold (and cyclical):

 

1) I'm scared to make contact for fear of making things worse (appearing desperate, etc)

2) When I do make contact she only wishes to talk about topics concerning divorce. In my opinion, she feels hurt and betrayed and thus closed off. She has convinced herself there is no other option and therefore won't speak of it.

 

Situation 2 leads to situation 1 which leads back to situation 2... etc etc.

 

Now, I'm trying to sound more confident and such when we speak, and to be more positive, but honestly, it's all for show. Inside I am desperate and hurting. I know I hurt her deeply and I want her forgiveness and for her to stay with me and work through this. I feel she is just giving up.

[slubberdegullion]

1. I'm scared to make contact for fear of making things worse (appearing desperate, etc)
   
2. When I do make contact she only wishes to talk about topics concerning divorce. In my opinion, she feels hurt and betrayed and thus closed off. She has convinced herself there is no other option and therefore won't speak of it.
   

OK, I think I understand.

 

You're making an assumption that, as you wrote, "she feels hurt and betrayed and thus closed off. She has convinced herself there is no other option." It may be true, but it may not; that's not something I could possibly know. Has she actually said that in one way or another?

 

I'm sensing a real communication disconnect here. First, she assumed that you knew her feelings about spending time together, and now you're assuming that you know what her reasons are for the divorce talk.

 

I still believe that there's lot of hope, though. But both of you need to gather up the courage to drop your guard and really communicate on a deep, almost spiritual, level.

 

It's hard. Very hard. But if you want to turn this around, you're going to have to take a chance and step up to the plate.

 

A good marriage counsellor can be an enormous assistance in this area. A good one - and not all are good, so you'll have to do some research first - will generate an aura of safety and trust in his/her office, to ensure that when strong emotions are expressed, they are treated with respect.

 

You can do this.

[loony]

Are you sure she is not seeing someone else? I find it a bit strange that she is willing to give up so quickly despite your great efforts to change and to win her back.

[Ghent]

OK, I think I understand.

 

You're making an assumption that, as you wrote, "she feels hurt and betrayed and thus closed off. She has convinced herself there is no other option." It may be true, but it may not; that's not something I could possibly know. Has she actually said that in one way or another?

 

I'm sensing a real communication disconnect here. First, she assumed that you knew her feelings about spending time together, and now you're assuming that you know what her reasons are for the divorce talk.

 

I still believe that there's lot of hope, though. But both of you need to gather up the courage to drop your guard and really communicate on a deep, almost spiritual, level.

 

It's hard. Very hard. But if you want to turn this around, you're going to have to take a chance and step up to the plate.

 

A good marriage counsellor can be an enormous assistance in this area. A good one - and not all are good, so you'll have to do some research first - will generate an aura of safety and trust in his/her office, to ensure that when strong emotions are expressed, they are treated with respect.

 

You can do this.

 

I want to do this; to date she's been unwilling (thus my opinion that she's feeling very hurt and betrayed.) About a year before we got married we broke up for about 3 months over issues that were somewhat similiar to this (situation was vastly different of course, being that we had only been together for about 2 years, and only bf/gf, plus other stuff) but she has said "this happened then and you haven't changed even now," so I interpret that to mean that she thinks that its never going to change. I'm certain she thinks that I'm just trying to get her back and that I'm not really making any "real" changes. Again, while this is supposition, I'm confident that's how she thinks of it.

 

I would love for her to join me in counseling. I've asked her and she won't come. She refuses to open up. I want to believe that it hasn't been enough time and I'm just being impatient, but she seems to be loving her new life without me.

 

Are you sure she is not seeing someone else? I find it a bit strange that she is willing to give up so quickly despite your great efforts to change and to win her back.

 

Well, the thing is, as far as I can tell, since we barely have any contact, she can't see the changes I'm making. She's not looking and she doesn't want to look, as far as I can tell, which is very daunting and painful. I have changed immensely in the past 1.5 months. My attitude and outlook on life, and my goals, desires and needs have all been defined within myself due to all these relationship books I've been reading. But, ultimately, if she never looks, she'll never see. I believe she still loves me inside, where she won't admit it. She hasn't said she doesn't love me (though she did say near the beginning that she wasn't sure anymore). I don't know. I am just confused. The woman married me and committed to me, so obviously I was worth having at one point. I just want her to see that I can be that again.

 

I don't believe she's seeing anyone else. I have no evidence of this, and in my past I've had a few girls cheat on me, so she knows this is a very sensitive issue for me. She's a very moral person with high integrity. Does my evil little inner voice scream that she's in the throes of ecstacy with another man every night? Most certainly. But I need to have more faith and trust than that.

 

However, this does lead into another topic I had not yet mentioned:

 

Before my wife and I split, my best friend who is very gay needed a place to stay. We had a spare guest room (which was destined to become our nursery soon) and we let him crash with us. Both she and I had a great time with him staying with us so after about a week we extended an invitation for him to move in for 6 months or so, which he happily accepted.

 

I thought (stupidly again) that this would be fantastic. Living with my wife and my best friend sounds like lots of fun, right? It was... until I realized that she and I were never home alone. I felt very contained by this and it was one of the elements that led to our arguing. We weren't fighting over the fact that he moved in, but it was brought up as a contributing factor to the sense of distance and disconnect we were feeling.

 

Now I've moved out, he is still there. They've bonded heavily (he's now one of her best friends) and they hang out all the time. He, in my opinion (and my therapist's) fills all the spots in her life that I wasn't. He'll do chores with her, cook dinner with her, hang out and watch TV with her, go dancing and clubbing with her, etc etc.

 

I've become very estranged to not only my wife but my best friend too. He claims to not want to get involved but he doesn't make any effort or even acknowledge that his presence there is probably hindering the situation between my wife and I. I fight with the desire to tell him because I know if I were to tell him to leave, it would piss my wife off, thus forming a "unit"... those two against me. I definitely don't want that. My friends and I all agree that he's being completely insensitive. I don't think (I've known him a long time, since childhood, really) he's doing it intentionally, he's just lazy and to him he's just "hanging out with his roommate". Very frustrating.

 

I want to have hope that she'll come around. She is as stubborn as I am. Some days I feel okay, some days (like this past weekend and today) I feel like I should just give up.

[Razorback05]

Your chance will come, whether on your terms or not. Just keep this as your life's mission for the time being and really work on yourself. Could you fail? Possibly. This is your wife, though, and worthy of the biggest fight you are capable of mustering. By fight, I mean the fight to regain YOURSELF.

 

It will be ALOT easier for her to divorce the man she left, than to divorce the man she married.

 

Don't betray yourself by giving up.

[Ghent]

Well, I just spoke for awhile on the phone with my wife and she has said that she is not changing her mind and that she does not love me anymore. She only wants to move on. I'm crushed. I don't know what to do.

[tms510]

she wants to hurt you back for the pain you've caused her, and this might be the only way she knows how to hurt you back, since she is still angry and hurt. See if she would be willing to hold off on the divorce and stay separated for a while (another 6 months or so) and talk about the divorce later (let things cool down). She says she probably wants a divorce, which doesn't mean she wants a divorce for sure, and even if she does, she can change her mind once the high emotions settle down and time allows her to heal and recover.

 

See may not see the changes now, but she will see the changes later. She probably doesn't even care about the changes you've made, she's mad and angry. Also changing yourself takes time, it doesn't happen over night. It will take months, if not years to truly be able to change your ways and behaviors.

 

 

 

When my and my ex broke up for the first time, we were separated for about 8 months. She said she would never see me again and we would never be together again. But I made some changes over those 8 months and she saw those. We started to talk again, she started inviting me over to spend the night at her house, and we eventually moved back in together. -- Now I'm back in the situation as I was when we broke up, and we now have a child together. There is hope for you guys, but it will just take time to let the fog clear.

 

I wish you the best of luck and just TRY to take it easy. The only thing that can resolve this is time. And don't try to get her to come back to you, this will only push her further away. When she is ready, she will let you know.

 

Be strong, be patient, let her do her own thing, and work on bettering yourself.

 

God Bless

[tonyp56]

The only advice I can give is to be her friend. Don't let it look too fake, but if she wants to talk about divorce only, then talk about the divorce. Bring up some movie, or song or something, but keep it about something that has nothing to do with your love for her. Don't say I love you, don't say I miss you, don't say I don't want a divorce, etc... Keep the conversation light, keep it about something other than you and her as much as possible, however, don't just change the subject if she brings something up that you don't want to hear, listen to her, give her a response when she ask you, but listen to her. Try not to get mad, getting mad is going to do nothing but show her that you are angry. Call no more than every other day, and always start off with "is this a good time?"

 

If you happen to get together for something, don't push her, show her how you've changed, if the change is for real she will notice it, but don't shove it down her throat, don't say "look I cleaned your dishes". Show that you respect her, don't argue with her, if she says something you don't like, listen, and then say ok or I'll think about it. Tell her that you want to come over to look over your stuff, so that you can figure out what you have there, or tell her you want to come over to talk about the divorce. Then go, and do what you said, but joke with her and/or keep the conversation as light as possible, don't get upset, and don't tell her how you feel for her, but show it by how you act, be nice, and don't act like you are eager to get a divorce, but don't act like it is killing you either. That is the only advice I have, what I would say is, what you're doing now, isn't doing any good, so why not shift gears.

 

It sounds hard, but that is your only choice. What you would be doing is building on the foundation that you already have with her. Let her fall in love with you again, but don’t push her. Tell her, that you need a little more time to accept the idea of divorce, and ask her to please give you a little bit of time, ask her to be patient with you. That should buy you a little bit of time, but if she says no, say ok, I understand. Don’t get upset, that is the biggest thing you’ve got to remember. You can’t make her love you, or make her accept you back, but you can show her that you’ve changed. Phone calls, in person, it doesn’t matter, let her put her guard down, the more you fight her, the harder she will push you away.

 

Good luck,

[hooghie]

Sorry to say this, but I don't think there is much hope for your guys. She sounds like she is done. Once I told me ex I was leaving and meant it- he started to change into what I had wanted for years, but it was way too late as my love for him was gone.

 

Try to move on. Your next relationship will be much better if you learn from this one.

[Woggle]

Face it man it's over. Just move on and be happy on your own. Maybe if she sees you being haooy without her things can turn around. Believe me it works. Don't beat yourself up over it. You tried to communicate with her and she acted like nothing was wrong. You are not a mindreader and she should not expect you to be. Don't beg her though. Never give up your dignity for a woman.

[Spurned]

Unfortunately for you, you're in the situation where you're going to have to make the changes on your own. Currently, your wife is not around for you two to work on it together.

 

I'll be honest with you, I don't think it's completely as hopeless as everyone suggests, although your relationship does seem to be circling the drain. Some things just take some time to pan out. I'd make some drastic changes to yourself, such as you've already done. Mix it up, do all the great things you always wanted to do. Party, travel, revisit old friends. Definitely date. You deserve some happiness, too.

 

But don't contact her any more. I mean it. In ANY way. If there is anything in her heart for you, her curiosity will force her to contact you at some point. Answer the phone, tell her you'll have to call her back because you were just on your way out the door about to climb K2 or something unexpected, and that you'll have to get back to her.

 

Live a full and exciting life without her, man! As tough as it is, it'll give you some self-respect, strength, and enrich your life.

[bkz]

I really feel for you, its the hardest thing ive ever had to deal with in my life. 3 months ago my wife said she wasnt in love with me anymore and has been unhappy with me for too long. Like you I neglected her (computer and tv) and failed to meet her needs/expectations as a husband and a father. Its crushing and really puts things in perspective when you have to go throught something like this but it has helped me grow tremendously and things are looking much better for me today. If you havent allready read my thread, it may help you and if you still love her and want to save your marriage you should try everything possible to do so. If it doesnt work out you know you tried and you'll be a better person for it in the long run. Heres the link to my situation and good luck, I hope things work out for you.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t71713/