After connecting over video I bombed the 1st Date

[808Traveler]

Today I caved and sent her a good morning text.  Then she asked what changed my mind to talk to her.  

I told her that I realized I was moving too fast and wanted to take the time to get to know her.  She appreciated the message and said she was happy we were talking again.  As it stands I'm in the friend zone with this girl because I'm going to try and raise her attraction level. 

[d0nnivain]

You can't raise somebody's attraction level.  It's there or it's not.  

She knows as her friend you will buy her expensive things.  This is a bad path for you. 

[balletomane]

OP, you are making the same mistake as you have made previously - acting as if this is some kind of strategy game, and if only you do and say the right things and act the right way, you'll get the outcome you want with any woman you want. I know there are a lot of sites out there that promote this way of thinking, but it doesn't work. Trying to "raise her attraction" is just going to lead to another sequence of cringeworthy moments.

You need to learn not to analyse and overthink everything, e.g. interpreting a woman's wish to be home by five as her being "dominant" and needing to be in control. You were assuming that she was overthinking and planning and strategizing in the same way you were, when in reality she was letting you know her schedule. It's not unreasonable not to want a second date to stretch out for hours and take up the entire day. But you reacted by calling her a powerhouse and commenting on her perceived need to be in control, instead of taking it as the perfectly normal and unremarkable comment it was. I think you need to try and take things more at face value.

You can't strategise and scheme your way into someone's affections. My boyfriend can be shy around women (he'd never even been on a date until his mid-twenties), but he is very comfortable with who he is as a person, and I found his sincerity appealing. To have a successful relationship you really don't have to be constantly charming/funny/adventurous/dominant/whatever else some Reddit relationship guru says, and in all likelihood it won't work if you try.

[Fresh_Start]

You just said this:

30 minutes ago, 808Traveler said:

I've learned that paying for expensive outings when the person is not your partner is a no go.   I've learned that I need to take some time to work on myself to raise my insecurities and confidence.  I need to learn how to set up proper boundaries and what my boundaries are.  I need to learn how to read a person and their attraction level with me.  I need to develop more self love so as not to be ok with being in the friend zone.

And then did this:

27 minutes ago, 808Traveler said:

Today I caved and sent her a good morning text.  Then she asked what changed my mind to talk to her.  

I told her that I realized I was moving too fast and wanted to take the time to get to know her.  She appreciated the message and said she was happy we were talking again.  As it stands I'm in the friend zone with this girl because I'm going to try and raise her attraction level. 

So it appears you haven't really learned anything at all and are just offering lip service. 

Don't tell us what you think we want to hear.  This is about you and changes that you need to make in order to ensure that you don't continue to make the same mistakes.   Commit yourself to actually working on the things you said you would and it will pay off in the long run.  Overcoming your insecurities and building self confidence will improve every aspect of your life.   

Edited June 23, 2020 by Fresh_Start

[introverted1]

Am I the only one who thinks this woman's character is questionable?  I know I would not accept an expensive date (or any date, tbh) with a guy I just wanted to be "friends" with, especially if it was clear he wanted more.  Seems pretty uncool on her part.

[808Traveler]

So your advice would be to just walk away.

No contact and just quit responding if she messages me?

[rjc149]

18 minutes ago, 808Traveler said:

So your advice would be to just walk away.

No contact and just quit responding if she messages me?

You don't seem too keen on following advice lol. 

As you were told, and as you've now learned, elaborate production "dates" intended to impress the girl and test compatibility under stress DO NOT WORK. Yes, taking her on a 2nd date where she was expected to celebrate your birthday by jumping out of a plane and kissing you destroyed her romantic interest in you. Too much dude. Way too much. 

At this point, this girl is exploiting your romantic interest in her for free validation and a good time. Stop being a chump already. Unplug your mind from Disney TV. 

Don't reach out anymore, but don't ignore her. That shows you're butthurt. Respond politely, just don't ask her out anymore. At this point, your grandiose, elaborate romantic overtures have been soundly rejected twice. She's not interested.

Going forward, plan normal, regular old dates over drinks or coffee. Stop it with the desperate, needy attempts to 'wow' her. It really turns women off. 

 

[ExpatInItaly]

2 hours ago, 808Traveler said:

As it stands I'm in the friend zone with this girl because I'm going to try and raise her attraction level. 

No, that's not how this works. 

Look, there's either some chemistry or there isn't. It's not something that can be manufactured. It's not there for her. Don't press it. 

As the others have said - this was all too much for a couple dates. Keep it more low-key next time, until you get to know the woman better and understand if the attraction is indeed mutual. Skydiving on your birthday was over-the-top. Sure, it's a fun activity but not for a second date. And definitely not on your birthday. That's something an established couple might do, not two folks who have just met. 

I don't think you're going to have much success until you work on liking yourself more. You don't trust yourself to impress a woman enough with your natural charms, so you're pulling out all the unnecessary stops and party tricks. It's not going to work long-term. You have to get comfortable with who you genuinely are and what you offer without having to put on some performance.

And ditch whomever this dating mentor of yours is - he (she?) has been totally misguiding you. 

[808Traveler]

35 minutes ago, rjc149 said:

You don't seem too keen on following advice lol. 

As you were told, and as you've now learned, elaborate production "dates" intended to impress the girl and test compatibility under stress DO NOT WORK. Yes, taking her on a 2nd date where she was expected to celebrate your birthday by jumping out of a plane and kissing you destroyed her romantic interest in you. Too much dude. Way too much. 

At this point, this girl is exploiting your romantic interest in her for free validation and a good time. Stop being a chump already. Unplug your mind from Disney TV. 

Don't reach out anymore, but don't ignore her. That shows you're butthurt. Respond politely, just don't ask her out anymore. At this point, your grandiose, elaborate romantic overtures have been soundly rejected twice. She's not interested.

Going forward, plan normal, regular old dates over drinks or coffee. Stop it with the desperate, needy attempts to 'wow' her. It really turns women off. 

 

Yeah, and because I'm not following advice it's costing me. 

I see what you mean and I'll be sure only to respond and not hang out.

Going forward I'll be sure to tone down the grandiosity and the dates normal.

Thanks for the advice 

[808Traveler]

31 minutes ago, ExpatInItaly said:

I don't think you're going to have much success until you work on liking yourself more. You don't trust yourself to impress a woman enough with your natural charms, so you're pulling out all the unnecessary stops and party tricks. It's not going to work long-term. You have to get comfortable with who you genuinely are and what you offer without having to put on some performance.

 

How would you suggest I do this?

[ExpatInItaly]

11 minutes ago, 808Traveler said:

How would you suggest I do this?

You have to begin by addressing what fuels your insecurity. What is it you think women won't like about you, when you're just being yourself? What triggers your anxiety, and how do you cope when you have anxious feelings?

You then also need to identify what makes you feel good about yourself: what are you natural skills, your innate abilities? 

Reading your posts, I can see a lot of posters (understandably) cringing at your approach here. But I also a guy who probably has quite a sensitive side and is earnestly looking for love. That can be a big advantage too, if you learn how to reign in your insecure and anxious thoughts. I have a feeling that when you learn to be more confident in yourself, women will be charmed by that genuine tendency toward affection and romance you seem to be harboring. You just have to get better at learning how to pace yourself and how to lead with confidence rather than anxiety. 

[rjc149]

Good rule of thumb OP, is that being romantic is how you keep her once she's your girlfriend, not how you attract her when dating. 

When you're too romantic up front, this tends to come off as needy as it places expectations on women to reciprocate. It makes women uncomfortable. 

Women want to date guys who are laid-back, secure, funny, charming, and who have no expectations. Guys who come off as "take it or leave it." It makes them feel safe, and free to come and go as they please without consequence. Their guard comes down, and they open up to you. Then, the romance develops organically. 

A woman on a 2nd date hasn't earned the opportunity to see your romantic side. She hasn't earned spectacular, flashy dates. She's not your girlfriend. You're not a couple. Don't place that expectation on her. 

She needs to earn your love. You don't just give it freely. Free things have no value. Hence why she happily agreed to take your skydiving ticket without any romantic interest in you. Your eagerness to please her was never earned, so she has no reason to respect it. Your love is free. Sure, I'll take it, she thought. Why not. It's free. 

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

4 hours ago, introverted1 said:

Am I the only one who thinks this woman's character is questionable?  I know I would not accept an expensive date (or any date, tbh) with a guy I just wanted to be "friends" with, especially if it was clear he wanted more.  Seems pretty uncool on her part.

I think she may have agreed to the date, then been taken aback by what it was...but OTOH, the OP says they both jump as kind of a hobby.

I do think it's uncool to agree to a super-expensive date (or even just an "I know he's really into me" date, money isn't always the issue at all) if you KNOW you don't want more with the guy. Did she actually know that yet, though? Was she trying hard to give it all another chance because the OP seemed like a decent guy?

Or...did she already "know" she wasn't into him romantically, period? If so, then I agree with you...

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 hour ago, ExpatInItaly said:

You have to begin by addressing what fuels your insecurity. What is it you think women won't like about you, when you're just being yourself? What triggers your anxiety, and how do you cope when you have anxious feelings?

You then also need to identify what makes you feel good about yourself: what are you natural skills, your innate abilities? 

Reading your posts, I can see a lot of posters (understandably) cringing at your approach here. But I also a guy who probably has quite a sensitive side and is earnestly looking for love. That can be a big advantage too, if you learn how to reign in your insecure and anxious thoughts. I have a feeling that when you learn to be more confident in yourself, women will be charmed by that genuine tendency toward affection and romance you seem to be harboring. You just have to get better at learning how to pace yourself and how to lead with confidence rather than anxiety. 

Personally I think the OP needs to address the ADD (known) or possibly BPDII (which it really seems like he's describing, but who knows) first. These can cruelly take away a person's confidence too when untreated, and they can also cause the person to really not be able to fully control himself. It's a tricky place to be in and it works against you constantly. Deal with that, OP. It's going to plague you for every date until you do.

[Grey40]

Dude you have a lot to work on. Man, this was a brutal read, but I’ve been in your position at some point in the past too. 

first thing you need to do is stop listening to so many other people telling you what to do. You need to act more from your gut instinct because all of your behavior comes off as inauthentic. Date from the heart, not from someone else’s mind. 
 

Stop talking to this girl. Tell her you had a good time but you’re not interested in being just friends. then wish her good luck and don’t contact her ever again. If you need to block or delete her number to ensure that then do it. You will waste incredible amount of time trying to force things with a girl who’s put you in friend zone. Much better off learning from this bad starting with a clean slate with someone new. 

obviously you need to work on your inner confidence so you don’t get so nervous and insecure around women you find attractive. Figure out why you don’t feel high value.

[regine_phalange]

From your description it seems that she was interested at first and didn't mind that you were nervous/feeling insecure. I think a lot of people find that endearing (I know I do, because it's relatable - I am a nervous wreck when I'm interested). But I think your texts afterwards and your conversation in the car came across as if you were dumping your insecurity on her and were fishing for validation and good words. What if she thought 'he is just using me to feel good about himself'? I'm not saying that this is the case by any means, but she may have felt insecurity as well in different ways.

Bottom line, I don't think she was turned off by the nervousness but by the way you kept talking about it as if it's something really bad (it's not). Maybe next time you feel nervous on a date you can text 'did you know you make me nervous ;)' or something like that. Take the nervousness and turn it into a compliment  

[Miss Spider]

Of course it’s not right, but women accept favors from guys they’ve friends zoned all the time.

Edited June 26, 2020 by Cookiesandough

[CaliforniaGirl]

On 6/23/2020 at 12:00 PM, 808Traveler said:

How would you suggest I do this?

Listen...I rarely go for "duuuude!"-style advice but this one piece I have found to be a gem (for both men and women):

Don't think of it as: you have to impress her. Think of it as: what does she have to offer me?

I don't mean to treat it like a job interview, or to puff out your chest and be "an alpha" (that never works, sorry, it's so transparent) and act superior or generally be an A-hole. (In fact, that screams insecurity...and women can tell.) But isn't the point that you're looking for a relationship that will make you happy? Yes, the other person's happiness is obviously paramount. It takes two. But she's already concerned with and focusing on whether you're the right one for her. So YOU don't have to do that. Instead, you need to be concerned with and focus on whether she's the right one for you.

You're not interviewing for a job or trying to show a person all the circus tricks you can jump through and you shouldn't be trying to convince someone else you're worthwhile. You ARE worthwhile. Do you have a fun and caring personality? Do you have a job? (She should too, BTW, before anyone yells about that, LOL.) Are you interesting, with a few interesting hobbies? (It seems like you do have hobbies.)  Do you take care of yourself, stay clean and smelling nice (fresh-showered guy scent FTW...they need to bottle that...I'd spray it everywhere), stay in shape? Well, then...what's not worthwhile?

On your dates don't be an ass, don't try to put her down or neg or anything...that's the backward PUA way to try to convince a girl she's "less" than you are. Instead, go from the other direction: you're a cool dude. Here's a girl who's attractive...is she the right fit for you? You don't know that yet. That's what you're on the date to find out.

It does take the edge off of thinking you have to somehow "perform" or measure up. There are some people you'll never measure up to in their eyes, and there are some people who will worship you but you're not interested, and then there's that one girl who's going to be neither of these...just a good fit. You can't force any of these. You can only keep dating, like everybody else, and barring something extraordinarily bizarre in your makeup (I'm not seeing it but you SHOULD address the ADHD if you feel it's a problem in your daily life) you're going to find that person who is right for you, not that person that you measure up to. That latter attitude would sink anyone's confidence, male or female...how could it not?

Edited June 26, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl
Two. Geez, that is embarrassing.

[808Traveler]

On 6/26/2020 at 10:50 PM, CaliforniaGirl said:

Listen...I rarely go for "duuuude!"-style advice but this one piece I have found to be a gem (for both men and women):

Don't think of it as: you have to impress her. Think of it as: what does she have to offer me?

I don't mean to treat it like a job interview, or to puff out your chest and be "an alpha" (that never works, sorry, it's so transparent) and act superior or generally be an A-hole. (In fact, that screams insecurity...and women can tell.) But isn't the point that you're looking for a relationship that will make you happy? Yes, the other person's happiness is obviously paramount. It takes two. But she's already concerned with and focusing on whether you're the right one for her. So YOU don't have to do that. Instead, you need to be concerned with and focus on whether she's the right one for you.

You're not interviewing for a job or trying to show a person all the circus tricks you can jump through and you shouldn't be trying to convince someone else you're worthwhile. You ARE worthwhile. Do you have a fun and caring personality? Do you have a job? (She should too, BTW, before anyone yells about that, LOL.) Are you interesting, with a few interesting hobbies? (It seems like you do have hobbies.)  Do you take care of yourself, stay clean and smelling nice (fresh-showered guy scent FTW...they need to bottle that...I'd spray it everywhere), stay in shape? Well, then...what's not worthwhile?

On your dates don't be an ass, don't try to put her down or neg or anything...that's the backward PUA way to try to convince a girl she's "less" than you are. Instead, go from the other direction: you're a cool dude. Here's a girl who's attractive...is she the right fit for you? You don't know that yet. That's what you're on the date to find out.

It does take the edge off of thinking you have to somehow "perform" or measure up. There are some people you'll never measure up to in their eyes, and there are some people who will worship you but you're not interested, and then there's that one girl who's going to be neither of these...just a good fit. You can't force any of these. You can only keep dating, like everybody else, and barring something extraordinarily bizarre in your makeup (I'm not seeing it but you SHOULD address the ADHD if you feel it's a problem in your daily life) you're going to find that person who is right for you, not that person that you measure up to. That latter attitude would sink anyone's confidence, male or female...how could it not?

Thanks for all of this.  I own a 5 year old small IT International business, travel often, work out 5 times a week, and practice self love on a daily. 

We started talking again, because of how sad it made her knowing that we would never see each other again.  She invited me to her house last night and when I went to kiss her she pulled away because I had went on a date and kissed on a girl on Monday.  I asked her if kissing was off the table completely and she said "Is that what I said".    We chatted about everything, and she explained that if she was interested in someone then there wouldn't be any kissing with anyone else.  She was ok with me putting my arm around her and holding her hand.  I've decided to put dating on hold others for the moment to see how this works out with her.   

I've found that by not chasing her and letting things happen naturally she is contacting me every other day and insisting on hanging out.  I'm just going to stay focused on my personal well being and business.  

I really like how you suggesting to ask myself is she is a good for me.  Right now I can't say for sure but I can say it's worth exploring more because we spend 2 hours on the phone  regularly and when we hang out it's fun and time flies. 

[CaliforniaGirl]

6 hours ago, 808Traveler said:

Thanks for all of this.  I own a 5 year old small IT International business, travel often, work out 5 times a week, and practice self love on a daily. 

We started talking again, because of how sad it made her knowing that we would never see each other again.  She invited me to her house last night and when I went to kiss her she pulled away because I had went on a date and kissed on a girl on Monday.  I asked her if kissing was off the table completely and she said "Is that what I said".    We chatted about everything, and she explained that if she was interested in someone then there wouldn't be any kissing with anyone else.  She was ok with me putting my arm around her and holding her hand.  I've decided to put dating on hold others for the moment to see how this works out with her.   

I've found that by not chasing her and letting things happen naturally she is contacting me every other day and insisting on hanging out.  I'm just going to stay focused on my personal well being and business.  

I really like how you suggesting to ask myself is she is a good for me.  Right now I can't say for sure but I can say it's worth exploring more because we spend 2 hours on the phone  regularly and when we hang out it's fun and time flies. 

I'm glad you're working on being happier with yourself! It sounds like you have a lot going for you. This is not a cliche or a stroke: you're a catch. Look around you, how many guys have their ducks in a row like this at a young age? I'm impressed, actually. Businessowner...super active...that is cool.

I'm going to say it before anyone else does. You're not making progress with this girl. You're just a satellite, and a sounding board. She's controlling you. She won't kiss you "because you kissed a girl on Monday" - why did you tell her you kissed a girl on Monday? Why is that her business? She forfeited your daily life being her business.

She knows how badly you want her; you keep trying to pull the moves.

She's using you. And she's NOT attracted. The reason she didn't kiss you isn't because you kissed someone else. 

Please...stop talking to this girl. Two hours a day...you're her bestie. Like any of her female friends. For your own self-esteem, please stop being around all the time for the phone calls. Just don't call her back...I don't know, I don't want to say play games, but you NEED to communicate to her that the idea was dating, and if it's not dating, well, you're 100% cool with that, but since that was your interest you two won't be talking anymore, but you do wish her lots of happiness. I mean that latter would be the ideal thing to do and say, just cut it off, but I feel like you won't.

This whole association will erode your self-esteem, not boost it. 

Move forward...move away from a situation where for two hours a day every day your subconscious is yelling at you, "this is a girl who doesn't think you're enough." You're going to undo ALL your progress if you keep this up with her.

Please just do this...rip off the Band-Aid. You are more than this. You're a young guy in his prime, you're a business owner - which is no mean feat in these times, you're active, you're fun, you're caring, you are SO much more than this. So so so much more. She can't see it because she's broken. Non-broken people don't toy with people's emotions like a cat idly offing a mouse piece by piece. 

*** WHO is this other girl??? Fess up! That's exciting - what happened with this new girl (the Monday kisser)?????

Edited July 2, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[ExpatInItaly]

Please be careful with your heart here, OP. 

People who only want you when you pull back are generally not the wisest emotional investments. 

[808Traveler]

On 7/2/2020 at 8:47 PM, CaliforniaGirl said:

I'm glad you're working on being happier with yourself! It sounds like you have a lot going for you. This is not a cliche or a stroke: you're a catch. Look around you, how many guys have their ducks in a row like this at a young age? I'm impressed, actually. Businessowner...super active...that is cool.

I'm going to say it before anyone else does. You're not making progress with this girl. You're just a satellite, and a sounding board. She's controlling you. She won't kiss you "because you kissed a girl on Monday" - why did you tell her you kissed a girl on Monday? Why is that her business? She forfeited your daily life being her business.

She knows how badly you want her; you keep trying to pull the moves.

She's using you. And she's NOT attracted. The reason she didn't kiss you isn't because you kissed someone else. 

Please...stop talking to this girl. Two hours a day...you're her bestie. Like any of her female friends. For your own self-esteem, please stop being around all the time for the phone calls. Just don't call her back...I don't know, I don't want to say play games, but you NEED to communicate to her that the idea was dating, and if it's not dating, well, you're 100% cool with that, but since that was your interest you two won't be talking anymore, but you do wish her lots of happiness. I mean that latter would be the ideal thing to do and say, just cut it off, but I feel like you won't.

This whole association will erode your self-esteem, not boost it. 

Move forward...move away from a situation where for two hours a day every day your subconscious is yelling at you, "this is a girl who doesn't think you're enough." You're going to undo ALL your progress if you keep this up with her.

Please just do this...rip off the Band-Aid. You are more than this. You're a young guy in his prime, you're a business owner - which is no mean feat in these times, you're active, you're fun, you're caring, you are SO much more than this. So so so much more. She can't see it because she's broken. Non-broken people don't toy with people's emotions like a cat idly offing a mouse piece by piece. 

*** WHO is this other girl??? Fess up! That's exciting - what happened with this new girl (the Monday kisser)?????

Thank you!   You’re correct I will undo my progress and my self esteem will erode if I don’t act in my best interest with the Brazilian.  I will just walk away, keep my answers short if she messages me and  hang out again.

 

The girl I kissed, call her Princess Leia, is sweet, kind, funny and is showing me large amounts of interest.  We have another date Sunday and I’ll keep you posted!

[808Traveler]

Sorry and never hang out with the Brazilian again.

[LynneVicious]

1 hour ago, 808Traveler said:

Sorry and never hang out with the Brazilian again.

I think this is your best bet. It’s already too complicated and you don’t want to spend all of your energy trying to claw your way out of the friend zone. Wish her good luck and don’t speak with her again. 

[TheDao]

On 6/26/2020 at 12:56 PM, Cookiesandough said:

Of course it’s not right, but women accept favors from guys they’ve friends zoned all the time.

Have you?