Tearing down statues

[mark clemson]

I'm confused. What makes you think that was done by BLM protesters, as opposed to, say, white supremacists.

IF it actually was BLM protesters that did that, it certainly shows a lack of understanding of what they were doing.

[mark clemson]

Food for thought...

https://news.yahoo.com/divisions-threaten-america-pressure-cancel-090012379.html

[stillafool]

20 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Black lives matter protesters tearing down statues of Frederick Douglass. Priceless. 

OMG!  This has taken a completely new low.

Edited July 6, 2020 by stillafool

[sothereiwas]

22 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

'm confused. What makes you think that was done by BLM protesters

No one else has been defacing statues for fun and profit as far as I know, take another example, Col. Hans Christian Heg, abolitionist who actually died to end slavery. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by sothereiwas
Phrasing

[mark clemson]

I think it's well recognized that some far-righters have been acting out in conjunction with the BLM protests. E.g. the "boogaloos", some of whom were caught genuinely planning acts of mass murder against both cops and protesters. So it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that some far-right folks were the ones who took down that statue "in retaliation".

Act against the BLM folks by taking down a statue they'd keep up. Some folks blame it on them and ignorance, so it makes them look even worse. Very clever.

Yay humanity!

Edited July 6, 2020 by mark clemson

[sothereiwas]

1 minute ago, mark clemson said:

I think it's well recognized that some far-righters have been acting out in conjunction with the BLM protests.

This might be true. It's also well documented that more than one abolitionist statue has been defaced by rioters who were clearly self identifying as BLM or other leftist groups. Based on the shear weight of numbers, the latter seems a lot more likely but I doubt we'll see a lot of enthusiasm for digging in and reporting facts on this one. 

[Ellener]

3 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Who was that?

 

[siren8272]

its a lot of bigotry on this thread smdh

[Prudence V]

On 7/4/2020 at 11:40 PM, mark clemson said:

We're so used to that as the de facto standard now, that when we see the negative sides of our "heroes" we forget that in their day practices that we now find extremely negative and appalling were commonplace.

Chris Patton made a similar argument against the statue of Cecil John Rhodes being removed from Oxford Uni. He didn’t count on people being historically literate enough to prove him wrong, citing letters and publications from Rhodes’s own time and place of people who considered him racist, vulgar, offensive, etc. I can’t speak about American historical figures, since I’ve been spared American history, but I imagine that’s true for many other figures in many places. “The mores of the time” were seldom universal; Contestations and debates are pretty normal in any age, and it’s likely no one was regarded as a hero by 100% of the people of their time. 
 

Especially slave owners. I very much doubt their slaves, or any other slaves, thought they were the epitome of virtue. But then, I suppose, many people don’t consider slaves to have been people, and so don’t regard their views as being on a par with the white beneficiaries of slavery. 🙄

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Especially slave owners. I very much doubt their slaves, or any other slaves, thought they were the epitome of virtue.

I think it's reasonable to suppose that that was often true. The folks who are keeping me in captivity are "wonderful" - nah.

There were americans who opposed slavery as well for sure, even I think in Washington's time (well before the US civil war). For example, I believe the Quakers, at the time a very influential religious group in the US, strongly opposed it on moral grounds starting from around the 1750's.

The flip side is that at the time, slavery was legal, many people thought as you indicate. There are even biblical passages that seem to support slavery. So, someone from that time seeing things that way is no real surprise.

Plenty of people today oppose hunting, but it's no surprise to find someone who practices it. Nor does it make them unqualified to be a leader or mean that they don't deserve credit if they happen to make important contributions to the gradual progress of civilization. In 300 years folks may see it differently (there may be no animals left), but I think there will be those who recognize that, just like any human being, they're in part a product of their time. Although it's hard to accept, you or I might be bigoted if we had been raised or educated differently.

[sothereiwas]

There's a pretty good chance some of my ancestors were actually brought over as slaves. The great irony and ignored bit of history is that it was actually a black slave owner who was instrumental in ushering in the doctrine of making black slavery a perpetual, unindentured state of being. It was not uncommon for people to sell themselves into slavery for a set period of time in those days. The idea that it was forever and included entire family trees was an innovation for America, but was common other places. 

America didn't invent slavery, but we did more than anyone else, sooner than most, to uninvent it. 

[mark clemson]

18 hours ago, enigma32 said:

It's funny how that works. The media brags about the thousands of people that show up for BLM peaceful protests, but the moment something bad happens, it was always that one white guy that did it. 

So, first of all it's not "one white guy". Plenty of BLM protesters are white or other races. A lot of people detest racism, particularly when it's overt, myself included.

Second, I'm not sure which media you're referring to. Although I don't often watch MSM TV news (cuz internet), I did during the protests. The main channels did not appear to be shying away from, e.g. showing some of the protesters looting, or burning police cars, or from interviewing a black business owner who's biz had been burned down by BLM protesters. They were reporting both on protester violence and on police violence, and eventually when it become clear - that some extreme far righters were causing additional violence. So not only one or the other.

They are also not shying away from reporting weekend shooting numbers over the 4th of July (much of which is probably inner city black on black violence, although I haven't seen stats). Nor are they shying away from reporting on the shooting of an 8 year old girl in Atlanta (black on black) which the Atlanta mayor is reacting strongly to.

I guess I'd wonder - do you actually watch the "media" you are criticizing? At least during the protests they seemed reasonably even-handed to me.

The verdict is still out on the Douglis statue. It didn't happen during a protest, it was done in secret at night. Not so much the "style" of the BLM folks. But - truth is you never know until they figure it out (if that happens). I was responding to an assumption above that it was BLM folks. There are certainly reasons to think it might have been them - but not to conclude that IMO.

[Prudence V]

On 7/7/2020 at 10:06 PM, mark clemson said:

Although it's hard to accept, you or I might be bigoted if we had been raised or educated differently.

But I was. I was raised under the most racist system of modern times (possibly excluding Israel, but that’s a separate debate). I was taught to be racist in my schools. My family were / are hardened racists, and bigots of all kinds (sexist, heterosexist, anti-trans, ableist - you name it). Having been brought up like that, schooled to be that, in a society that supported that in every way - did that condemn me to have to be that? Of course not. I have a brain, and my own eyes and ears. 

[mark clemson]

5 hours ago, Prudence V said:

But I was. I was raised under the most racist system of modern times (possibly excluding Israel, but that’s a separate debate). I was taught to be racist in my schools. My family were / are hardened racists, and bigots of all kinds (sexist, heterosexist, anti-trans, ableist - you name it).

Fair enough and I'm very sincerely very glad you are able to see past the distortions and stereotypes! I guess my point would be that, given how others in your community turned out, having what it takes to be non-racist is by no means a foregone conclusion.

[Prudence V]

So the Police, Crime, Courts and Sentencing Bill (which has been put on hold for a while, it seems) will make punishment for attacking a statue more severe than punishment for raping an actual, living woman. And we saw that in action at the Sarah Everard vigil, where at least one woman was badly manhandled by police, and another reported approaching police at the vigil to report harassment by a man on the fringes - and being brushed off, as police were told to protect the statue of Churchill 🙄. 

[elaine567]

I believe that there is a serious problem with maintaining law and order in the UK at the moment. The Clapham Common vigil was an unlawful event and had been cancelled due to Covid yet no-one paid a blind bit of notice, showing up in their hundreds and some were spoiling for a fight... The police stood back until they could stand back no longer and removed some of the troublemaking women and attempted to disperse the crowd.
Then we had the "Kill the Bill" protests in Bristol, again showing that the general public will not obey the law, they know better... they showed up in their thousands and it led to rioting on the streets of Bristol, with police vans being set alight and policemen injured. I am sure these were guys from rent a mob causing the serious problem, but with no protests then they would not have been there in the first place.
Protests rarely if ever translate into action, so basically a waste of time... the protests in Bristol merely proved the Bill is needed and soon. 

[Shining One]

4 hours ago, Prudence V said:

So the Police, Crime, Courts and Sentencing Bill (which has been put on hold for a while, it seems) will make punishment for attacking a statue more severe than punishment for raping an actual, living woman.

What are the sentencing ranges for both offenses?

[Fletch Lives]

Okay, I have not read this whole thread, but I have an idea.

Some of these statues are offensive. Yet, they are also history and should be saved. maybe they should be moved to a museum where people can choose to view them or not.

Another thing - I always thought displaying or depicting a rebel flag was dumb - that army was abolished over a hundred years ago.

[Prudence V]

21 hours ago, elaine567 said:

no-one paid a blind bit of notice

No-one? You mean, the hundreds (if not more) of us who participated in the online vigil from our homes don’t exist? 😱

[Prudence V]

17 hours ago, Shining One said:

What are the sentencing ranges for both offenses?

The Bill has proposed “up to 10 years” for damaging a statue. It’s still a Bill at this stage, rather than actual legislation, so we don’t yet know the final outcome. 

Rape can carry a sentence anywhere between 3 months and life, depending on many, many factors (in England and Wales. Scotland and NIreland have their own systems). I can’t find current figures for average sentencing, but previous claims were either 5 years or 8 years (both contested). And, of course, conviction rates are incredibly low, of those prosecuted. Prosecution rates are low, of those reported. Reporting rates are low, of those we know about through other sources (research, counselling, and of course anecdote - most of us know several women who were raped but elected not to report). 

[Shining One]

7 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Rape can carry a sentence anywhere between 3 months and life, depending on many, many factors (in England and Wales. Scotland and NIreland have their own systems).

Three months does seem really low for a minimum. It should be considerably higher. However, lifetime max is certainly more than 10 years max. I suppose we'll have to wait and see what the proposed minimum will be. If damaging a statue has a higher minimum than rape, then something is definitely off.

UK rape laws needs an overhaul in general. Last I heard, women can't rape men (legally speaking) over there.