Needing some strength/clarity

May 24, 2020

Hey everyone,

As some of you know my story I’ll try to spare the details. I have been with my AP for about 4.5 years now. I finally had enough and called it off in February this year but then he came back to me and told me he and BS had separated which was mid April. Between feb and April it was this constant “we are going to split” and then it happened mid April. Because he had made progress, I went back to him. Now I’ve been dealing with a lot of self doubt with that decision. Since the split in February, I began IC and my counselor has been incredibly helpful.

I think what I’m struggling with most is that I expected things to be different now that they’re separated, but the only thing that has changed is the amount of time I get to be with him. I still have this sense of instability, which is difficult to explain. We are making plans to start our life together but for some reason it still feels like empty promises. He has always been unrealistic and would make grand promises or statements prior to separation such as “we are getting a divorce this summer” in the summer of 2018 etc. His latest promise or statement (whatever you want to call it) is that we will be living together by the end of the year.

These statements seem so grand and almost feel like he says this stuff to make me feel like we are having progress when in fact we are not. As for D, he has been working on the final details he claims and he continues to be vague on what the next steps are. I know they are working on dividing finances etc currently, but he has been vague with WHEN they actually plan to file for divorce. Supposedly it has been very amicable and she has been agreeable with most matters. I can’t help but feel stuck in the same situation as before. He drug out the separation for more than 4 years, and I’m fearful he will do the same thing with filing for divorce, especially since he has me back.

My other issue with how things have been going is that I am having troubles trusting him (big surprise huh?). One day I went to his place and it looked like he had slept in the guest room so I asked him if he slept there and he said “no” and then quickly changed his answer to “oh yeah, I forgot I fell asleep on the couch and then must have made my way here.” This was also the night that he left out that he “went over to a buddy’s” and also didn’t send me his usual good night text. The other day he got a text from BS and he quickly jumped to cover his phone, then walked out and said he needed to return a work call (I don’t think he knew I saw who the text was from).

The last thing I had happen that was weird was he tried to video call me on WhatsApp (we communicate on whatsapp and email). I called him back right away and he declined my call. Then 30 min later he called me and I asked him what happened earlier and if he meant to call me earlier and he said “I think so, probably”. I then asked why he declined my call then when I immediately tried to return it and he said he was on the phone with his friend. I dk why but his “I think so” response bothered me. He’s very intelligent and I’d like to think a person knows if they tried to call their SO? It was such a weird response.

This last piece has to do with IC. Ever since I’ve been in therapy he’s been complaining that it makes me more negative, my therapist is bad for me, and that it makes me have a pessimistic view of my life. I’ve always thought of this as a red flag, especially because my close friends have told me how different I have been and in a good way. On top of it, my therapist last week told me given the above stories she thinks he has another OW or that he’s still seeing BS. I have to say how much of a complete mind screw it is to have the person you love say that your therapist is bad and then the “bad therapist” tell you you can’t trust the person you love.

Clearly I am feeling like I don’t know who to trust these days. I’m feeling lost right now. I thought I’d be so happy to have him actually progressing to a divorce. I’m also feeling like if I ask him to not come back to me until he’s divorced it will seem like I’m one of those people who can’t just be happy with the progress being made. However, I know that separation does not equal divorce and that is making me unhappy and feel unstable in our relationship. Thoughts?

Edited May 29, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

May 24, 2020

Best way for you to get clarityis to take a big step back. Possibly/probably he has another OW (or BS). The fact he's not being transparent does not bode well for starting anew. Imagine if this was a guy you just started dating a couple months ago. Would you put up with this? Also, for the mind f part, consider agendas when deciding what to believe. Your friends (esp if more than one) most likely have your best interest at heart, know you well, and want to envisage your happiness. Your therapist is there to support you, you are her client, she is trained and experienced in recognizing people's motives, etc. What would she gain by misleading you? Now your AP is likely to have the most selfish agenda of all. You are his soft place to land if BS or OOW relationships don't pan out. You've proven to him time and again that you'll be on standby. That puts you in low status position to him because he believes no matter what he does you'll always be waiting for him. That doesn't motivate him to treat you well or consider your feelings/needs. It's tough when your emotions are wrapped into it, which is why you should do the tough thing and step away. Tell him when the ink has dried on the divorce decree and he's ready to explore a long-term, committed relationship with you, and only you, to see if you're still available.

May 24, 2020

I don't know exactly what's going on with him but I 100% trust your gut that there's something going on. I really feel for you. I remember how I felt when I was trying to figure out my husband's weird and contradictory behavior and he was always trying to mislead, deflect, and omit. I was going crazy trying to make the puzzle pieces fit together.

I've yet to see you share anything that makes it seem like this guy is full of empathy and concern for you. Whenever you ask for what you need, he calls you selfish and manipulates you into doing what he wants. He's fine with telling you it's a work call when it's BS. I agree with HadMeOveraBarrel . . . you need a big step back to see this clearly. You've invested so much that you're worried about your sunk costs. What if you're "this close" to getting your happily ever after?

Only . . . I don't see anyone living happily ever after with as he is now.

May 24, 2020

I would put money on it that he's shacking up with the BS, otherwise known as his wife. There are lots of ways for divorcing couples to justify it. One more for the road... One last time... Being there for each other. It's actually pretty common.

May 24, 2020

Maybe just ask him if he’s seeing his wife or another woman?

May 24, 2020

3 hours ago, heartwhole2 said:

I don't know exactly what's going on with him but I 100% trust your gut that there's something going on. I really feel for you. I remember how I felt when I was trying to figure out my husband's weird and contradictory behavior and he was always trying to mislead, deflect, and omit. I was going crazy trying to make the puzzle pieces fit together.

I've yet to see you share anything that makes it seem like this guy is full of empathy and concern for you. Whenever you ask for what you need, he calls you selfish and manipulates you into doing what he wants. He's fine with telling you it's a work call when it's BS. I agree with HadMeOveraBarrel . . . you need a big step back to see this clearly. You've invested so much that you're worried about your sunk costs. What if you're "this close" to getting your happily ever after?

Only . . . I don't see anyone living happily ever after with as he is now.

The sunk cost fallacy is really getting me. I do feel like I’m on the brink of having everything we talked about but I also know it’s my inner child desperately clinging to the fantasy world that love conquers all. My biggest fear and the reason I haven’t taken a step completely back from this is that I don’t want to lose him for good. But maybe I need to take that risk so that I can see more clearly. It’s helpful to hear others say to listen to my gut and that something seems off because I have a tendency to explain the red flags away and have little trust in my gut feelings which I’m working on.

May 24, 2020

2 hours ago, RebeccaR said:

Maybe just ask him if he’s seeing his wife or another woman?

I’ve asked him about each instance and he just recreates the past. For example I told him he never mentioned he was going to a buddies house that night (we had talked multiple times and not once did he mention leaving his house, he was purposely vague in what he was doing that night). He claimed that we talked about it the previous day which I know 100% didn’t happen. He had mentioned the buddy trying to reach out to him but never said he was going to his place.

Whenever I do ask pressing questions he get super defensive and says I’m accusing him of being a liar. If I were to ask him he will probably just get angry with me about it and honestly I don’t think he would tell the truth..

May 24, 2020

It must be very threatening for him that you are speaking with a counsellor. There is the fact that you discussing your intimate secrets with this person, and he could be wondering how that reflects on him... But more likely, he wants to maintain the power dynamic in the relationship. Affairs are by their very nature, one sided relationships. One person holds all the cards, makes all the decisions, and has all the power. Things are shifting, if he has left his marriage. Things are becoming a little more balanced, and the more self aware you get, the more empowered you feel, the more self-determined you become... well, that doesn’t bode well for him. He’s putting down your counsellor and attempting to manipulate you such that you will stop going to counselling in an attempt to regain his control.

Again, I think you are wise not to trust him. You know from past experience that he is not to be trusted. Listen to your intuition. Listen to to your friends. Listen to your counsellor. This man should not be trusted.

Edited May 24, 2020 by BaileyB

May 24, 2020

21 minutes ago, Husbandssecret said:

I also know it’s my inner child desperately clinging to the fantasy world that love conquers all.

Only in Disney movies... There are no conflict avoidant, dishonest, and unfaithful princes in Disney movies.

May 24, 2020

I'm really sorry that you are having a hard time and you have my sympathy.

Having been through something similar about 2 years ago with Xmm I would bet 100% that it was BS he met or maybe she came over to his place to discuss the divorce, dividing the assets and she may have stayed over. I wouldn't trust him at all and personally I would think about backing away and tell him that you want to be with him but not like this. He needs to go through the divorce without his emotional crutch supporting him. You are in a weak position and he is still holding all the cards.

Yes you may be worried because

1 hour ago, Husbandssecret said:

I don’t want to lose him for good.

however

1 hour ago, Husbandssecret said:

Whenever I do ask pressing questions he get super defensive and says I’m accusing him of being a liar. If I were to ask him he will probably just get angry with me about it and honestly I don’t think he would tell the truth..

If he really loves you and wants to be with you then he will do the right thing to make that happen. If you take a step back and leave him to sort things out with BS and he doesn't proceed with the divorce or he stalls then I think you have your answer. We discussed something similar on another thread today and tbh being needy and clingy is not attractive. Show him that you are holding some of the cards and that you aren't going to wait around forever. You walked away in Feb and less than 2 months later he had separated and moved in to his own place.

Be that strong and determined person again and stand your ground.

May 24, 2020

There is truth to the old saying - people who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

There is awful lot of blame shifting in what you are saying (if you ask him, he gets angry and turns the blame back to you), and manipulation (we talked about this yesterday, don’t you remember), and just plain avoidance (when you ask any questions, he recreates the past without answering your question or he gives you a vague response).

How in the world do you trust a man who can’t give you a straight answer?

May 25, 2020

I'd just look at it as . . . it doesn't matter what he's hiding because you know he's hiding something(s).

May 25, 2020

op,

what do you feel you need him to do for you to be able to trust him? Given everything he's asked you to take on for him, you have every right to ask him to do what you need him to do for you to feel comfortable. If he can't do that, then he really should step away- if he can't (won't), then you may have to bite the bullet for him.

May 25, 2020

3 hours ago, Husbandssecret said:

My biggest fear and the reason I haven’t taken a step completely back from this is that I don’t want to lose him for good.

If you focus too much on fear of losing him, you'll lose yourself in the process. That's a very high price to pay!

May 25, 2020

39 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

what do you feel you need him to do for you to be able to trust him?

My question is, what would he have to do for you to say - this isn’t working. This is too much. This is not what I want for myself.

Edited May 25, 2020 by BaileyB

May 25, 2020

I read this post the other day.. someone posted on reddit that her grandmother said, "when a man marries his mistress, he creates a vacancy." I do think there's some truth to this saying. Don't you think the distrust, the evasiveness and gaslighting that you are experiencing and feeling now is probably also what his wife felt and experienced for the past 4.5 years? You are getting a taste or glimpse of what it's like really being with this man in a "proper" relationship. Is this the kind of life you want to lead for the next however many years you get stuck in this? You need to focus on this more, than the fear of losing him.

May 25, 2020

The most interesting story on this board has to be expatinItaly who shared that when her father in law finally divorced his wife to get with his mistress, he then continued to have an “affair” with his ex-wife. So yeah, when he married his mistress he created a vacancy... one that in this case, the ex-wife was happy to fill...

This is the risk you take when you get with a man who has a history of cheating... you will always have to sleep with one eye open.

The key for me here is the lack of transparency, the defensiveness and manipulation that he shows when she asks for transparency - something that anybody in a relationship should be willing to demonstrate for their partner, PARTICULARLY if there has been infidelity. Yes, you are more than likely getting a taste of what his wife has experienced during their marriage - now you know, why he probably described her as a controlling woman, difficult to live with - she was trying to nail jello to a tree. Perhaps, he was just as evasive with her, when he was cheating with you.

Relationships simply shouldn’t be this hard...

May 25, 2020

I am of the opinion that some men like having two women, some would have more if they could get away with it.
This man for more than 4 years had 2 women, and that I guess was no coincidence. He liked it.
He could have chosen to be with one years ago but he didn't.
I also think that people who get themselves in a "torn between two lovers" situation, stay in that situation, because neither "lover" is actually "good enough" for them to choose one over the other.
They thus continue with both, one provides one level of needs , the other provides a different level of needs.
Once they dispense with one lover, there is a big gap that the other used to fill, so I am not surprised that IF the ex wife is amenable then the "affair" continues with the roles reversed as in the case of expatinitaly's FIL ...

May 25, 2020

I've been meaning to reply to your last thread. I think your gut has been telling you for some time that you should step back.

You want to trust him, but you can't because you already lost it.

To make demands now might mean that he might use your lack of trust as a excuse to go back, but to not question it doesn't sit well with you either because your needs are not met.

You want to step back, but in doing so, you might lose him completely.

The suck cost fallacy is in play here, because 4.5 years is a long time to be in an affair. You have to ask yourself honestly here: Do you still love him? Or are you just afraid of losing him, or afraid of letting go of a relationship that you know is not fully healthy for you?

It's true that affair relationships often fail, but sometimes it's not for the reasons that most people think. In order to have a real relationship with your MM, it would require all the same ingredients that goes into a loving relationship. That means you can be totally honest with each other (an irony to some on the outside looking in) but only you know if that have that kind of relationship. Do you? If you can't even bring up your worries with your MM without fearing that you're going to lose your relationship, there's a problem.

It's worth to figure out what's holding you back in IC. If you don't want to throw everything down the drain, I would say take baby steps and go to couples counseling when the time is right. I would say that given your descriptions of your MM and how risk averse he is even of your going to IC, that might be a rough patch ahead. I don't think he's in the same place as you. And it's not the right time nor do I think he's at the same place as you, because he still has to yet to sort out his own marriage.

The next move is yours. Forget what he wants for a minute. What is it that YOU want? (There's no need to reply to this question to me; just something to think about)

Edited May 25, 2020 by spiritedaway2003

May 25, 2020

1 hour ago, spiritedaway2003 said:

You want to trust him, but you can't because you already lost it.

This is it. This is the bottom line...

And how do you regain trust, with a man who is still spending hours each day in his family home and will not give you a straight answer for anything. You can’t.

May 25, 2020

6 hours ago, elaine567 said:

I also think that people who get themselves in a "torn between two lovers" situation, stay in that situation, because neither "lover" is actually "good enough" for them to choose one over the other.
They thus continue with both, one provides one level of needs , the other provides a different level of needs.

This is really interesting. I'm going to interject the highly narcissistic qualities here applied to this. It's like he can't accept the shortcomings of his partner and feels entitled to 'have it all' so he gets an OW. Between the two of them (two mommies!), he gets everything he wants without compromising. In healthy relationships we accept our partners have flaws just like we do. But a cheater, whether a narcissist or in an entitled narcissistic state, feels entitled to not compromise (on partner flaws) and entitled to have all whims catered to so they cheat (OW compensates). Possibly the perceived flaws are imagined by the cheater; for ex. BS might be reacting to cheater shady behavior, but rather than take responsibility for acting shady, cheater projects onto spouse that spouse is overreacting. Meanwhile, the cheater is unable to see their own flaws. (The irony!)

You did it again, Elaine. You made me think! ☺

May 25, 2020

I tend to agree there's a high chance he's either with his wife or possibly looking to sleep around a bit. It's possible with the prospect of divorce looming she has become much more "accommodating" than she was back when he didn't seem to have the gonads for that, or she is simply trying to keep him. Divorce is a big deal. Also many newly divorced men date around a bit so interest in that would be no surprise. If they are a "good catch" things are often very different for them than they were in their 20's.

It sounds like you'll really need to keep an eye on him, and even so you can't generally fully control what a person will do if it's what they really want to do, unfortunately.

19 hours ago, BaileyB said:

There are no conflict avoidant, dishonest, and unfaithful princes in Disney movies.

This was funny. But then I realized - Aladdin, Beast, Hans from Frozen...

Edited May 25, 2020 by mark clemson

May 25, 2020

18 hours ago, BaileyB said:

My question is, what would he have to do for you to say - this isn’t working. This is too much. This is not what I want for myself.

If I knew he was for sure seeing BS still or another OW. He’s told me that they are filing for divorce next month, that they have everything basically squared away. He claims to have the parenting agreement done and most of the finances agreed upon including that their account splits into their own separate accounts on 6/1. That’s why I’m struggling! He’s giving me very convincing details that they really are close to being done. But I still have this fear that something will come up and before I know it, they will have been “working on divorce” for another several years. That sounds dramatic but his old ways have been to drag things out. But now recently he’s meeting his timeline. He told me she would be moved out by end of April and she was gone mid April. I’m tired of being in this state of mind of waiting for the other shoe to drop. It’s like because of the past, feeling like I was led on, I’m not ready to believe 100% that won’t happen with the divorce. I know taking a step back and waiting for the ink to dry on the divorce papers is what is best for ME. But I can’t shake this feeling that I’m going to give up us for good by putting myself first. And maybe that’s the part that should tell me this absolutely isn’t working. The fact that I feel like I have to choose between myself and our relationship.

May 25, 2020

4 hours ago, BaileyB said:

This is it. This is the bottom line...

And how do you regain trust, with a man who is still spending hours each day in his family home and will not give you a straight answer for anything. You can’t.

Right! And he’s always vague with his day. He rarely tells me what the day consists of for example he says he practiced sports with one of his kids and then I asked if he saw the other kid and he said well yeah. But the way it was presented was he only saw one of the kids and I had to dig to even find out that both kids were present as well as BS. When he’s with his kids it’s rare for me to get updates on the day until the end of the day when he sends me a long summary of the day.

May 25, 2020

4 hours ago, HadMeOverABarrel said:

This is really interesting. I'm going to interject the highly narcissistic qualities here applied to this. It's like he can't accept the shortcomings of his partner and feels entitled to 'have it all' so he gets an OW. Between the two of them (two mommies!), he gets everything he wants without compromising. In healthy relationships we accept our partners have flaws just like we do. But a cheater, whether a narcissist or in an entitled narcissistic state, feels entitled to not compromise (on partner flaws) and entitled to have all whims catered to so they cheat (OW compensates). Possibly the perceived flaws are imagined by the cheater; for ex. BS might be reacting to cheater shady behavior, but rather than take responsibility for acting shady, cheater projects onto spouse that spouse is overreacting. Meanwhile, the cheater is unable to see their own flaws. (The irony!)

You did it again, Elaine. You made me think! ☺

My counselor thinks he’s actually love avoidant and that he needs multiple lovers because he can’t show his full self to one person. Therefore he gets each of his needs met through each relationship he has.

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