For post affair BS who chose to reconcile

[Amethyst68]

Quote

Although I fell in love with my EAP I never acted on that (to the extent of a PA). That distinction may mean little to you, but it means a LOT to me, as some boundaries (the most important ones in my personal view) were not crossed.

For some reason I had the idea your AP was the one who ended the affair and stopped the EA progressing to a PA by moving away with her husband. I must have your story mixed up with someone else.

Do you think your wife would share your idea about these boundaries? It doesn't matter what a bunch of strangers on the internet think. It should matter very much what your wife believes, if she sees it as much of a betrayal.

[mark clemson]

24 minutes ago, Amethyst68 said:

For some reason I had the idea your AP was the one who ended the affair and stopped the EA progressing to a PA by moving away with her husband. I must have your story mixed up with someone else.

Do you think your wife would share your idea about these boundaries? It doesn't matter what a bunch of strangers on the internet think. It should matter very much what your wife believes, if she sees it as much of a betrayal.

I made no mention of how it ended above, but correct, you are mixed up. She had no husband, a "perma-fiancee". She got a new job so we were unable to see each other. I do believe she felt "done with me" by the end. The way it ended or did not has little bearing on my point, though.

I have not told my wife and never intend to. I don't care to take risks with my marriage by telling her or experience the consequences of telling her. That is unethical, but that's what I've chosen to do.  I'm 99% sure Ive actually mentioned that before in response to you specifically, Amethyst, but as it was over a year ago I guess I can forgive you for forgetting that.

I see you've turned this line of discussion to my personal ethical decisions and of course made it all about what my wife might or might not hypothetically think.

What's the least ethical thing you've ever done and never lived down in real life? Care to give a full and completely honest accounting?

Edited June 30, 2020 by mark clemson

[Amethyst68]

No, I remember you didn't tell her and I could make the point a general one, I didn't mean to derail the thread. I've been trying to figure out how to put. I guess I try to make sure my actions are both true to myself and also harm anyone else. It shouldn't  that my SO wouldn't find out about an affair be it an EA or PA, I would know it hurt them to their very soul so it would be another reason not to do it. 

Believe me I'm no saint, cheating is just something that's a hard no for me. In real life I can be extremely sarcastic at times but also very helpful too. 

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Amethyst68

[pepperbird]

3 hours ago, mark clemson said:

While there's certainly nothing wrong with behaving ethically and responsibly, and it's in fact commendable, you seem to be conflating "love" and "morality" in this post.

Maybe your point is that if you love someone you wouldn't risk hurting them? That's a reasonable view. Not the only possible one, but a reasonable one.

Clearly you didn't love your wife enough to never have occasion to make a conscious decision not to stray, since you directly refer to making that decision.

I think some would say that if you TRULY loved your spouse, you'd never even THINK about straying - ie, there's be no interest to the point where a decision would even need to be made. However, I think that's not realistic. People are human and feel attraction and marriages and LTRs have ups and downs. Some folks I think have idealistic and high minded ideas about love that aren't actually realistic, or possibly some folks simply experience it differently than many others do. Or perhaps in a few cases they're the lucky few where their marriages are SO fantastic they never would even think about anyone else. Good for them, I guess.

Or maybe, just maybe, they either are monogamous or they have ethics and values that won't allow them to cause that level of hurt to someone else. Just because some people can't keep their proverbial zipper in the upright position doesn't mean everyone else has that same issue.

Most people can still feel an attraction to others, even if they are married. They key is they choose to not act on those feelings.   It's just like how people can see things they want in a store and not steal them. If they were starving, they'd go to the food bank or find other  community resources. They wouldn't steal and then blame anyone and everyone else for what they did.

[pepperbird]

2 hours ago, mark clemson said:

A fair question. I would point out that my "conscious decision" was initially to flirt only. Feelings developed and as I saw the person regularly in the course of my workweek they intensified. I did not consciously avoid talking to them. Neither did I consciously have sex with them. In fact I never told her I loved her or actually even touched her at all.  Although I fell in love with my EAP I never acted on that (to the extent of a PA). That distinction may mean little to you, but it means a LOT to me, as some boundaries (the most important ones in my personal view) were not crossed.

I don't think love equates to morality. I actually feel that limerence is being fully "in love". However since it doesn't last and is actually a brain chemistry phenomenon, LTR "love" is what many of us actually do/experience, e.g. to raise children. That is a reasonable compromise and IMO what most people can reasonably expect from life. There should be love in that LTR, but it won't be the same heady love that we experience the first 6 months of a relationship (NRE) or especially in limerence.

Morality is a separate issue.

While you may not particularly like this answer, I think we can "love" two people. For example one in the LTR of a marriage and another in the NRE of a PA or strong emotional connection and/or limerence of an EA. Those are actually two different forms of love. (And I believe they are different from a brain chemistry perspective.)

Obviously in a situation like that, one or both will be hurt or betrayed. Hence morality must be separate from (the emotion of) love.

BTW, I'm not try to suggest that my emotional connection justified my actions. Affairs are inherently unethical (they involve deception) and I concede that mine was as well.

you try really hard to nationalize cheating, then come back from the brink. Why?

[pepperbird]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

I

What's the least ethical thing you've ever done and never lived down in real life? Care to give a full and completely honest accounting?

so now we're at " you can't get mad at me, look what you did!"?

[pepperbird]

1 hour ago, Amethyst68 said:

No, I remember you didn't tell her and I could make the point a general one, I didn't mean to derail the thread. I've been trying to figure out how to put. I guess I try to make sure my actions are both true to myself and also harm anyone else. It shouldn't  that my SO wouldn't find out about an affair be it an EA or PA, I would know it hurt them to their very soul so it would be another reason not to do it. 

Believe me I'm no saint, cheating is just something that's a hard no for me. In real life I can be extremely sarcastic at times but also very helpful too. 

 

I think a lot of people who have never had their spouse cheat on them don't see it as that big of a deal. Lack of experience, I guess?

[mark clemson]

One your first post, you seem to be reiterating the point I made in my second sentence. Perhaps we are actually in agreement.

As for rationalizing - I call things how I see them. I've always been very much a shades of gray person, in many areas of life. I'm blessed/cursed with the ability to see both sides of things generally.

On your third point, I've been through my story on these boards before. I had NO intention of making this thread about me - others took it there. Must I reiterate my story again and again? I already conceded that my actions were not ethical. At some point I think it's fair to ask they they own up to things too rather than just conveniently "judging me". I respect Amethyst for admitting she's no saint, but yes we are "there". I'm tired of having to justify decisions I've settled on. In fact, others have no real business questioning them in a thread that isn't about them to begin with. So yes, let's make it about someone else please.

Edited June 30, 2020 by mark clemson

[DKT3]

5 hours ago, mark clemson said:

A fair question. I would point out that my "conscious decision" was initially to flirt only. Feelings developed and as I saw the person regularly in the course of my workweek they intensified. I did not consciously avoid talking to them. Neither did I consciously have sex with them. In fact I never told her I loved her or actually even touched her at all.  Although I fell in love with my EAP I never acted on that (to the extent of a PA). That distinction may mean little to you, but it means a LOT to me, as some boundaries (the most important ones in my personal view) were not crossed.

I don't think love equates to morality. I actually feel that limerence is being fully "in love". However since it doesn't last and is actually a brain chemistry phenomenon, LTR "love" is what many of us actually do/experience, e.g. to raise children. That is a reasonable compromise and IMO what most people can reasonably expect from life. There should be love in that LTR, but it won't be the same heady love that we experience the first 6 months of a relationship (NRE) or especially in limerence.

Morality is a separate issue.

While you may not particularly like this answer, I think we can "love" two people. For example one in the LTR of a marriage and another in the NRE of a PA or strong emotional connection and/or limerence of an EA. Those are actually two different forms of love. (And I believe they are different from a brain chemistry perspective.)

Obviously in a situation like that, one or both will be hurt or betrayed. Hence morality must be separate from (the emotion of) love.

BTW, I'm not try to suggest that my emotional connection justified my actions. Affairs are inherently unethical (they involve deception) and I concede that mine was as well.

As much as some dont want to hear it, men behavior differently in affair,  in general.  Men tend to stay engaged with the wife, and usually have no need to demonize her to have an affair.  Some women are that way too, but far fewer.

The reason I point that out is because for betrayed husbands who have been treated poorly during the affair will have a much tougher time making the connection between that behavior and being told he is loved. I truly believe this is the main reason women stay with unfaithful husbands at a far higher percentage. 

[DKT3]

Another point, I believe sometimes when a wayward spouse says it has nothing to do with the betrayed spouse it's TRUE. I believe,  like Mark they have intentions to just get a little pick me up and it gets out of hand because they get caught up.

In the end that doesn't make it better but you can understand it. We have all been there (not affairs) when we intended one thing and went much farther along then we planned. 

[Amethyst68]

16 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

As much as some dont want to hear it, men behavior differently in affair,  in general.  Men tend to stay engaged with the wife, and usually have no need to demonize her to have an affair.  Some women are that way too, but far fewer.

The reason I point that out is because for betrayed husbands who have been treated poorly during the affair will have a much tougher time making the connection between that behavior and being told he is loved. I truly believe this is the main reason women stay with unfaithful husbands at a far higher percentage. 

Look I'm not a BW but I lost a very loved cousin due to cancer, a lasting effect from an STI memento from her WH's affair.

As a result I went on a reading and researching binge to try and see why? Why do people do this? Why do married people cheat and why do single people cheat with them?

What I learned was the exact opposite of what you wrote. After DDay most BW wrote about the disconnect, the distance between them, the change in the WH behaviour where they become short tempered, impatient and so on. They also share about how they didn't spend time with the family any more, often running off to spend more time with new friends.

What may not have changed is that more WHs probably don't stop having sex with both their wives and their APs. MWs do seem to be more faithful to their APs.

So really the opposite of what you wrote apart from sexual behaviour. Of course there will be those who were blindsided just as there were BH in the same situation.

[DKT3]

33 minutes ago, Amethyst68 said:

Look I'm not a BW but I lost a very loved cousin due to cancer, a lasting effect from an STI memento from her WH's affair.

As a result I went on a reading and researching binge to try and see why? Why do people do this? Why do married people cheat and why do single people cheat with them?

What I learned was the exact opposite of what you wrote. After DDay most BW wrote about the disconnect, the distance between them, the change in the WH behaviour where they become short tempered, impatient and so on. They also share about how they didn't spend time with the family any more, often running off to spend more time with new friends.

What may not have changed is that more WHs probably don't stop having sex with both their wives and their APs. MWs do seem to be more faithful to their APs.

So really the opposite of what you wrote apart from sexual behaviour. Of course there will be those who were blindsided just as there were BH in the same situation.

Nothing is all inclusive.  Of course there are exceptions.  I'm talking overall,  looking at numbers.  Betrayed wives stay at a much higher rate than betrayed husbands. there are reasons why. 

Hell, my wife was an exception, she behaved more like a MM in her affair.  Her behavior was weird and from time to time she would make odd comments but other than that she was actually more loving towards me. 

[pepperbird]

29 minutes ago, DKT3 said:

Nothing is all inclusive.  Of course there are exceptions.  I'm talking overall,  looking at numbers.  Betrayed wives stay at a much higher rate than betrayed husbands. there are reasons why. 

Hell, my wife was an exception, she behaved more like a MM in her affair.  Her behavior was weird and from time to time she would make odd comments but other than that she was actually more loving towards me. 

why do you think that was? it's interesting that she acted like that- maybe she was feeling guilty or she was trying to keep you from suspecting she was cheating?

My husband got really, really mean. Cruel actually. I don't know why, but a counsellor we saw thought it could be he was disappointed in himself so he was taking it out on me.
I know he's find that very hard to live with. I've moved on, but it's been more difficult for him. I think part of that is disappointment in himself. He become someone he never wanted to be.

[DKT3]

Why she acted that way is actually here on the site she use to post here.

To summarize,  it was guilt.  She has told me it made her feel better about herself if she nicer to me. One of the odd things she did was if she got the OM something she would get me the same thing. It was only a few things but mostly stuff I had no interest in. 

I think a big part in why the WS is mean is because it creates a distance or a reason to not be around the BS giving them more opportunities for the affair. Another part is they fear being vulnerable with the BS. 

[DKT3]

@pepperbird when it all came out, how quickly did your husband seem remorseful? 

[OrdinaryDude]

On 6/2/2020 at 3:25 PM, Zona said:

Reconciliation is hard. Sometimes you wonder if it is worth it. I'm heading into year 2. I have gained some trust back, but I doubt that will come back fully, at least not blind trust.

I completely agree here, trust during and after R is never what it once could have been.

It leaves a scar not matter the length or success of the R. Blind trust is now extinct in the M, and can never be brought back.

[Blind-Sided]

18 hours ago, mark clemson said:

Clearly you didn't love your wife enough to never have occasion to make a conscious decision not to stray, since you directly refer to making that decision.

However, I think that's not realistic. People are human and feel attraction and marriages and LTRs have ups and downs. .......

Sure.... I get it.  But my choice wasn't being made at the verge of something physical.  It was more in the back of my head... just the same as when you see a pretty girl walking bast that you don't know.  But at this point... it's kind of irrelevant. She's been gone for over a year, and she never wanted to reconcile. 

[understand50]

In answir to the first general question, no time at all.  As I did not find out about the cheating that occurred during the marriage, until much later. I had no idea.  If she did drop out of "love" it was not apparent to me.  As for her declaring she loves me At this time? Yes, I do believe her.  My main issue with her, is her lack of candor.  To this day, she will not definitely admit the affair. She just talks around it.  Getting information on what she may or may not have thought is not happening. Again, my flogging the horse, that what is needed for true healing is open and honest communication.  I wonder, if she can not or will not trust me, as she will not open up.  Trust is a two way street.  The WS must trust, that what they reveal  will be accepted, and the WS, if they have decided to reconcile, must be ready to hear it.  And so it goes.