For post affair BS who chose to reconcile

[pepperbird]

If you are a BS who chose to reconcile, did it take you a while to believe your wayward husband or wife when they told you they loved you, etc.? How did you ever start to trust them again  when they told you that?
That was something that was really hard to get my head around. you love me, you care about me yet you'll do this to me?
I still don't understand that at all. If you love someone, how can you cause them that level of hurt?

I'm mostly asking out of curiosity. At them time, I didn't think much about it, as my mind was so mixed up already. It was sort of like rebuilding trust- it took a long time for the 'i love yous' form him to feel like more than just words.

[heartwhole2]

It seemed like my husband was trying really hard to convince himself that he wasn't happy with me during the affair and kept trying to push me away, but since I'm not a retaliatory or passive aggressive person, when I would be decent and kind he would usually soften. 

I remember distinctly developing a new symptom of my health issues during the affair -- I became freezing cold at night. So I would cling to him for dear life trying to get warm, and he would always roll towards me, say my name, and tell me how much he loved me. I remember that it started the exact month that OW flew to our country for the PA, when he was his meanest and most distant during his waking hours.

On DDay he definitely treated me like some interloper who was keeping him and OW apart, but as my reaction brought him back to reality, he backtracked. After a few days I realized he was still following OW on social media and vice versa, and when he cut her off 100% it took a week or so before he was like a simpering puppy gushing about how in love with me he was. He never seemed to be good at hiding feelings or lying so I never doubted this. He was different when he was in the affair -- clearly trying to push me away and set me up to be the bad guy.

To me the issue was not feelings. You can take control of those. During the affair I realized my libido was low and my feelings were flat due to my SSRI so I weaned myself off it and I started sniffing his armpits. I did all of this on my own just wanting to have a healthy and happy life -- imagine what we could have accomplished together if he'd been honest and self-aware.

The issue was . . . how can this man who doubled down on his immaturity and selfishness love me in the way I deserve? It took as long for me to trust him in this as it did for him to genuinely change himself. Thankfully he considers working on himself a lifelong pursuit. 

As you can imagine, the stress and trauma of the affair made my health problems even worse, and he had an opportunity to practice selflessness and empathy and commitment and giving without expecting to get, day after day.

It took him about 9 months to get into IC (kept claiming the ICs would never call him back, weren't accepting patients, etc.) and that was a turning point in terms of his beginning to understand remorse and ownership. 

Re trust in general, as a reaction to the trauma I would be hit suddenly with panic if something reminded me of a time when I figured something out about the affair. That's something a WS who has been given the gift of reconciliation needs to anticipate and be strong through. 

[Guildford]

Some people can keep NSA sex and bonding sex separate and some people cannot; when these two people are in the same marriage there are problems.  The person who can compartmentalize sex can engage in NSA sex and still love their spouse, but the spouse cannot believe that the love is still there.  Back in the 70s much of the media talked as if monogamy were outdated and an occasional fling did not mean the end of the marriage.  My wife would sometimes say that she would like to have sex with someone else (I believe I remain her first and only). 

I had a fling with a young lady thinking that such behavior was acceptable.  I thoroughly enjoyed myself-thinking that I was doing nothing wrong.  Not long after that I told my wife what had happened thinking she would then have a fling without being racked by guilt.  Instead she blew up at me and I realized that I had misunderstood my wife.  We did not have the endless reconciliation that you describe on LS and we have had a monogamous marriage since then.  That event is never mentioned now. 

If you want a successful marriage then you need to roll with the punches and understand that the two of you probably do not have identical views of love, marriage and monogamy.

[heartwhole2]

Guilford, it sounds to me like you are suggesting we ignore decades of learning on how people deal with trauma and self-actualization because not really addressing those things worked for you. My parents were of your generation and my father told me that the number one most important thing in a marriage is to understand when something is important to your spouse even if it isn't important to you. It's not the golden rule of "Do unto others as you want them to do unto you," but "Understand how others want to be treated and do unto them as they desire." One assumes that our experience is universal and the other doesn't.

A cheater who spends time really considering the pain of their spouse is going to be so humbled that they won't have the ego to ask their spouse to consider their point of view. And the betrayed spouse is going to see that humility and growth and naturally consider the cheater's point of view, especially in the context of how much it has changed. I often talk about something I call the "virtuous cycle" . . . engaging with my spouse with as much tolerance and grace and compassion as I can. My sticking to this philosophy is probably why our marriage didn't go completely off the rails during my husband's affair. But unfortunately it doesn't really work if only one spouse is doing it because one is doing all the giving and one is doing all the taking. And what doesn't perpetuate a virtuous cycle is one spouse telling the other that they need to do it better. 

I don't view my marriage as "endless reconciliation." I view my life as endless self-improvement, endless growth in love. Being truly vulnerable with your partner, honoring their pain, committing yourself to the other's happiness, giving the benefit of the doubt, encouraging each other to be better people, living in gratitude . . . if that's endless reconciliation, then sign me up. 

[Guildford]

Heartwhole said: My parents were of your generation and my father told me that the number one most important thing in a marriage is to understand when something is important to your spouse even if it isn't important to you.

I agree with your father, in marriage you do have to take into consideration the needs of your spouse.  My wife had complained that she had a crush on two men at work and at other times that she was doomed to spend her whole life having had sex with only one man.  With each complaint I said that if it bothered her that much, then she should "scratch the itch."  I told my wife about the fling shortly after expecting her to exercise her need for sex with someone else without being racked with guilt.  Instead she blew up and I realized I  had misinterpreted my wife and I never did anything like that again.  Some time after that when we were discussing this subject my wife said that I was not what was stopping her. 

Ask your father what the 70s were like.  We had the pill, HIV/AIDS had not raised its ugly head and many of us (too many) had never heard of herpes.  The words of a popular song went: If you can't be with the one you love, then love the one your with.

I am happy to read that you have reconciled with your husband and it sounds like he was not taking into consideration your needs and feelings.  Would you classify his sex with the other woman as NSA sex or bonding sex?  It appears on many of the postings I read on LS that the WS had bonding sex with the OW and had no concern for their spouse.  I believe in honesty above all else in marriage.  If someone feels that they must have sex with someone else, then tell your spouse about it, preferably beforehand but definitely shortly afterwards.  Don't wait for the old death bed confession.  

Pepperbird's original question was: If you are a BS who chose to reconcile, did it take you a while to believe your wayward husband or wife when they told you they loved you, etc.? How did you ever start to trust them again  when they told you that?  All I can say is listen to their words, but more important judge them by their actions after DDay.

[heartwhole2]

Unfortunately my father is no longer with us.

My husband's affair was an EA/PA. He met a foreign woman while on a weekend with friends, they started kept in touch, and she confessed her love for him. He was very clearly trying to turn me into a villain during the months of the affair, I suppose so he could prove to himself that I was some heartless wench so what he was doing was OK. But I kept thinking, well, he says he's stressed out from work, and if I were going through a hard time I'd want him to give me the benefit of the doubt. It makes it even sadder to look back on that time and see how I was trying so hard to deal with a mysterious situation I couldn't quite make out in a healthy way while he was making unhealthy choice after unhealthy choice. 

I agree that actions tell the story, not words. In the five years since the affair there have been many important signifiers of his commitment . . . ways we restructured our finances, etc. No single act provided closure but taken in context they show a person who is 100% committed to our future and my feeling safe. When he snuck the OW onto a business trip he was "too busy" to call home (even though we had tiny children who of course got the stomach flu at that exact moment) so I can see his commitment in how he calls and FaceTimes regularly while away without me having to ask. 

I hope more BS will chime in. It was hard enough working through everything with a man who was clearly terrified of losing me and acting like my love slave (though still entitled and not understanding the depth of my pain in those days). When the WS is standoffish or distant or pining for the AP, it makes it even harder. I hope BS will remember that they always have choices. You don't have to stay with someone whose actions don't say they love you, no matter what their words say.

[mary1974]

My husband cheated on me for 3 years and it nearly destroyed me entirely. I never felt such pain in my life and that says a lot because I lived in domestic violence hell as a child. His affair came out in 2008 and I never really regained trust completely. Unfortunately it’s always there, in the back of your mind and every time he’s late coming home or wants to go out with friends it’ll more than likely haunt you inside though I think it also depends on the way the betrayer responds. Mine took years to even appear even slightly sorry and that just damaged me even more. I think it’s very hard to trust that person let alone anyone ever again to be honest. I tried so hard but in the end, it didn’t work and now I’m in the middle of a divorce. I wish I’d left when the affair came out to be honest. All I did was prolong the inevitable and cause myself and our family so much unnecessary pain.

[pepperbird]

On 5/3/2020 at 5:11 PM, heartwhole2 said:

Unfortunately my father is no longer with us.

My husband's affair was an EA/PA. He met a foreign woman while on a weekend with friends, they started kept in touch, and she confessed her love for him. He was very clearly trying to turn me into a villain during the months of the affair, I suppose so he could prove to himself that I was some heartless wench so what he was doing was OK. But I kept thinking, well, he says he's stressed out from work, and if I were going through a hard time I'd want him to give me the benefit of the doubt. It makes it even sadder to look back on that time and see how I was trying so hard to deal with a mysterious situation I couldn't quite make out in a healthy way while he was making unhealthy choice after unhealthy choice. 

I agree that actions tell the story, not words. In the five years since the affair there have been many important signifiers of his commitment . . . ways we restructured our finances, etc. No single act provided closure but taken in context they show a person who is 100% committed to our future and my feeling safe. When he snuck the OW onto a business trip he was "too busy" to call home (even though we had tiny children who of course got the stomach flu at that exact moment) so I can see his commitment in how he calls and FaceTimes regularly while away without me having to ask. 

I hope more BS will chime in. It was hard enough working through everything with a man who was clearly terrified of losing me and acting like my love slave (though still entitled and not understanding the depth of my pain in those days). When the WS is standoffish or distant or pining for the AP, it makes it even harder. I hope BS will remember that they always have choices. You don't have to stay with someone whose actions don't say they love you, no matter what their words say.

This is so true.
It may sound weird to say it, but in a way, I was lucky. a few weeks after he confessed to me, he was deployed for a year. We had started marriage counselling before he left, and I continued on my own afterwards. In an odd way, I really benefited from that. I had the time to exlo0re all the options that were open to me, and when he came back, I was able to approach reconciliation from the [position that it was what I had made the fully informed decision to undertake because I wnated to, not because I felt like I had no other choice. It also gave me time to do some research into combat related PTSD and see if helping my spouse recover was something I felt I  could even begin to undertake.

I would advise any BS, even if reconciliation is what they want, to explore all their options. The more knowledge you have, the better.

[pepperbird]

14 hours ago, mary1974 said:

My husband cheated on me for 3 years and it nearly destroyed me entirely. I never felt such pain in my life and that says a lot because I lived in domestic violence hell as a child. His affair came out in 2008 and I never really regained trust completely. Unfortunately it’s always there, in the back of your mind and every time he’s late coming home or wants to go out with friends it’ll more than likely haunt you inside though I think it also depends on the way the betrayer responds. Mine took years to even appear even slightly sorry and that just damaged me even more. I think it’s very hard to trust that person let alone anyone ever again to be honest. I tried so hard but in the end, it didn’t work and now I’m in the middle of a divorce. I wish I’d left when the affair came out to be honest. All I did was prolong the inevitable and cause myself and our family so much unnecessary pain.

At least you are able to get away from him. That took courage and strength.

I understand what you mean about the infidelity hurting worse than physical abuse. When I was a kid, the first guy I ever dated was extremely abusive. It may sound strange, but even when he beat me up baldy enough that I had to be hospitalized it didn't hurt as much as my spouse cheating. The abuser was just doing what abusers do-I excepted nothing better. In his mind, my job was to be his punching bag when things in his life didn't go right. I really believed it was my own fault, and besides, he never made any promises not to hurt me ( I;m not saying I agree or think this makes any sense, it's just the way I was thinking at the time).

With my spouse it was different,. He made promises I expected he would keep. I sure did.

[Zona]

Reconciliation is hard. Sometimes you wonder if it is worth it. I'm heading into year 2. I have gained some trust back, but I doubt that will come back fully, at least not blind trust.

[pepperbird]

23 hours ago, Zona said:

Reconciliation is hard. Sometimes you wonder if it is worth it. I'm heading into year 2. I have gained some trust back, but I doubt that will come back fully, at least not blind trust.

It can also open up other closets full of their own skeletons.

When my dad found out my husband had cheated on me, after he calmed down and stopped shouting and using lots of very colourful four letter words, we had a talk. He told me that he had a very brief affair himself,  and he was able to give me some insight in the mind of a WS. He also told me that even forty years later, he still felt guilty that he had hurt my mom so much. She had long since moved on and put the affair mostly in her rear view mirror. She and I did talk about it a bit in the days before she died and the pain meds made it easier for her to open up.
She always his her pain, and even though his affair was well in the past, there were times it still hurt her to think about it. They were able to move forward, but it took counselling and a lot of patience and understanding on both their parts.

Edited June 3, 2020 by pepperbird

[emotionallybroken9]

I’m a year and bit into my recon. 

It physically pains me and sends thoughts of disbelief when she looks at me with flirty eyes or says I love you. For so long this wasn’t there. Then after affair and trickle truth and recon, it comes out. Except this time, nothing about me changed, and she’s lied so well (perfectly 100%) for so long, how can I trust her?

 

Pepper, I don’t think I will ever trust anyone again. It’s more of a “I accept the statements you are giving me. I hope they are true. Though, I will deal with the consequences of deceit because that is also an equal possibility.”

 

Sounds jaded as hell, but that’s what happens when your world crumbles and has to be rebuilt, heh. 

 

Ill let you know when it no longer hurts me when she’s loving on me 

[pepperbird]

27 minutes ago, emotionallybroken9 said:

I’m a year and bit into my recon. 

It physically pains me and sends thoughts of disbelief when she looks at me with flirty eyes or says I love you. For so long this wasn’t there. Then after affair and trickle truth and recon, it comes out. Except this time, nothing about me changed, and she’s lied so well (perfectly 100%) for so long, how can I trust her?

 

Pepper, I don’t think I will ever trust anyone again. It’s more of a “I accept the statements you are giving me. I hope they are true. Though, I will deal with the consequences of deceit because that is also an equal possibility.”

 

Sounds jaded as hell, but that’s what happens when your world crumbles and has to be rebuilt, heh. 

 

Ill let you know when it no longer hurts me when she’s loving on me 

EB9,
Maybe I'm just being a mother hen, but if I could take your pain away, I would. I totally get the part about not trusting. Trust is such a huge gift, and when that's gone, it can be hard to rebuild.

Do you tell your wife when you're hurting? Does she understand the depth of your pain? In my experience most WS aren't bad people, and in a weird way, that can actuality make it worse. If my spouse had always been a jerk, I might have excepted it. He promises to love me, never intentionally hurt me and to be faithful. I trusted all of that.
Never again. Self preservation and all. That's not to say I don't love him to death or that I don't trust- I do trust him maybe 90 percent, but it will never be 100 again. we are like the wabi sabi vase- maybe the "battle scars" we carry as a couple make us stronger?

[emotionallybroken9]

I hope it’s true pepper. I try to process the pain. I don’t hide it, and I go on walks and such. If I think she can do something to cheer me up, I would. 

For example, I was out on a walk with my kid about an hour and a halfago. I saw a guy that looks like someone she slept with. I’ve been stuck in a s***ty loop since then. Came home, and currently in my bedroom on these forums for the last hour or so. I told her that I saw someone and it triggered me. I don’t know what she could say, but I don’t have the energy to talk about it out loud, you know? So I’m in here using my phone, trying to distract myself enough to move on from this s***ty loop so I can go and have a “normal” day. 

Mao yeah, a little mother hen isn’t bad right now

[seren]

We’re 12 years on since my H told me about the 8 month A he had.  I, like most BS knew something wasn’t right, but after repeatedly asking if anything was wrong, asking if they were unhappy and being assured it was nothing and I was loved, put it down to stress and waited for the stranger H was fast becoming into the loving  man I knew him to be. We’d been together over 20+ years, most of them wonderful, we still held hands, cuddled, loved, laughed and were the poster couple for a great marriage and friendship. The A hit me like a thunderbolt. Once it was all out there things began to slot together and his behaviour made sense. He was long term military, had completed some particularly hard deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. Counselling has since revealed chronic PTSD, I’m told affairs are commonplace amongst those who think they don’t deserve a good life or to be loved. Not an excuse, maybe a reason. So.

 

When H told me I could see just how broken he was, I didn’t hate him, I hated the A, but I could see just how destructive it had been for him. We were both broken. Like a lot of us BS, I was asked to stay, told repeatedly how sorry he was, that he loved me. TBH, I didn’t want to hear how he loved me, I wanted him to say he no longer loved me, I couldn’t understand how someone could love me and yet hurt me so much. Over the terrible chaos of the first few months I kept saying no, don’t tell me you loved me, but even while he knew it would make it easier for me and him to hear that he’d fallen in love with the OW, that he was no longer in love with me, he couldn’t and wouldn’t say it.  I trusted him from the moment he told me, I could see just how broken he was, I didn’t follow him, track him or any of those things, I hadn’t fallen out of love with him, I had never left our marriage. 
 

It certainly wasn’t easy the OW wouldn’t stop stalking me, kept ringing, telling me I was stopping H from contacting her, she said, she knew him, I said how could she know him after simply sharing stolen moments with not a moment of real life intruding. It took 6 long years for her to stop stalking us. Once the A was known, it became our problem, nothing to do with them and all to do with us. We both decided we wanted our marriage to work, we both knew it was going to be hard, we didn’t know how hard it would be nor how hard the gut wrenching feelings I would have. If we hadn’t worked together we would have failed. After some initial trickle truths, he told me every painful thing I needed to know. I wanted it laid out before my mind to understand it and to see it for what it was. I didn’t fear him having another affair or contacting the OW. I told him at the start, there would be no second chances, he was either in it or not. I wouldn’t make it difficult for him to leave, I certainly earned enough to live alone and our children were both adults. Leaving would’ve been easier, but I weighed up if leaving or staying was my choice, an informed choice after having truth, we were still in love with each other.

My thoughts were that if I didn’t trust him it wouldn’t work, I’ve no want to feel I have to keep checking up on him. I also thought if he couldn’t be happy with me then he had no reason to stay, I’m also aware of my own worth. The hardest part for around 5 years were the constant mind movies, I had this romantic view of affairs, stolen moments in romantic places, love letters filled with promise, the reality was nothing like it. The relationship they had was so far removed from what H and I had shared, I don’t understand fully why she stayed, the man she described during one of our few conversations was nothing like my H. Maybe that helped me to make sense of it, because I truly believe to make things work, the BS has to make sense of it all. 
 

I remember reading the letter that’s pinned describing after DDay like a jigsaw puzzle the BS has to complete without a picture, how not knowing what they ask is like someone has taken pieces out and how we fill those empty slots with our own imaginings. Truth is essential, trust comes in time. Now we still love, despite the A, it has scarred H more than me, he finds it hard to reconcile the man he was with the man who hurt me and us so much. I don’t know if he’ll ever fully forgive himself. I don’t understand affairs, I would never willingly share the person I loved. Nor could I imagine being instrumental in hurting anyone else. During counselling for combat stress H said the A was like punishment, he didn’t believe he deserved our relationship, me, our life as he felt guilt at being alive when his comrades died during a roadside bomb. It’s common in combat stress particularly. We still work on that.

For me, without trust we had no chance, maybe it would have been different if I’d found out, rather than him telling me. I pop on here during my bouts of insomnia and read the same story told by different people over and over. The pain of those early years, the struggle and hard work to learn to live a new relationship with infidelity as part of our history. I took responsibility for my part in our marriage drifting, but no responsibility for the A. I always believed we’d make it, we both had too much to lose. All the tracking them, the looking back won’t make it easier, for us, I made the decision to move ahead, look to our future, otherwise there would be no point staying.  We’re now waiting for our first grandchild in 3 weeks, our relationship is fantastic despite the A, H still finds it hard to forgive what he did, I try to help him fight his dragons. Honesty is key. Look at the A for what it was, make sense of it and make an informed choice. Reconciliation takes longer than you’d think, but it can work. I wish the WS just thought about the hurt they will cause before an A, that they did the right thing and left before the A began. How easier it would be. I’ve probably not answered the question, but, hey ho.

Edited June 20, 2020 by seren

[merrmeade]

I just summarized the current state of my reconciliation on TooLateNow’s “I lost that loving feeling” thread. I know there are people who rabidly denounce such reconciliations of compromise, but if you read my final entry you can see things are getting better and better. 

The thing is - that initial pain. The utter devastation of the discovery. It’s like nothing else and lasts a long time or, like they say, 3-5 years (5 for me). Would it have been so horrific for the WS? I think not for a very simple, basic reason. The one thing you can say for WS is that they are not easily duped, but BS are. Until we’re not. Until we know the truth. 

So knowing the truth means I am not the naive, trusting person I was 8 years ago and do not want to be. I know, I know. Affairs are not the BS’s fault by and large, and I’m not saying any different. But I am saying that my inability to consider the possibility of dishonesty and deception in people I knew and cared about, much less recognize lying and gaslighting to my face, left me powerless to take control of my life and happiness and made me a victim. Now I’m not, and I don’t ever want to be that person again. I’m not blaming myself for my husband’s lack of self-control and integrity in the past - just for my inability to see the truth about him and for my delusional assumption that he shared my values and boundaries. I didn’t know him, and he successfully hid a part of himself from me. Now, I know him, and it is disappointing. He’s only partially addressed his faults, but I still hold him to a higher standard. I have absolutely no reason not to call every single instance of self-deception the moment it starts and believe me, I do. He expects it but knows I won’t overdo it. That’s trust that matters.

So my answer to the question of trusting his fidelity is still that answer. You have to dig and dig and dig until you understand every aspect of what he did: why, how and when he started to stray; what he thought about what he was doing; how he justified it to himself (how she justified it to herself if you have access to that information); how he hid it from you; how he took advantage of your trust, gullibility or habit. I think you have to look at that for what it is and piece the whole story together. Then you will be clear. 

We all asked that question: “If you love someone, how can you cause them that level of hurt?” And the answer is far harder to accept than what you’d like, but that’s part of waking up to the truth of the human condition, selfish entitlement, original sin or whatever you want to call it. You have to see it and then decide what you want to do about what you see, but first you have to look at it without looking away or folding. 

You decide to forgive or not but never forgetting means never being vulnerable again because you are wise. And you are wise because you forced yourself to acquire knowledge you didn’t have. If you don’t go to therapy with your spouse, you still have to do that work of understanding. It’s better to do it together, but you can do it by yourself as well. I did. It took at least ten excruciating conversations in which I dragged the truth out of him,* five years of realizing what that truth meant about him and three more learning to feel great about myself and what I value. It gives me the power now and that makes others, including my husband, want to be better. My family trusts me to stand for what is good, important and true.

*(Of course, I realize now that if I’d just assumed the worst, I would have been able to fill in the blanks myself.)

I wish you peace that comes from knowledge.

And the answer to the Question IS....

They did it because they wanted to eat that apple and they didn’t think about consequence or disappointing anyone. It was just about pleasure and not about you at all.

Edited June 20, 2020 by merrmeade
I forgot the punch line!!

[merrmeade]

10 characters

Edited June 20, 2020 by merrmeade
double entry

[DKT3]

On 6/3/2020 at 2:40 PM, emotionallybroken9 said:

I’m a year and bit into my recon. 

It physically pains me and sends thoughts of disbelief when she looks at me with flirty eyes or says I love you. For so long this wasn’t there. Then after affair and trickle truth and recon, it comes out. Except this time, nothing about me changed, and she’s lied so well (perfectly 100%) for so long, how can I trust her?

 

Pepper, I don’t think I will ever trust anyone again. It’s more of a “I accept the statements you are giving me. I hope they are true. Though, I will deal with the consequences of deceit because that is also an equal possibility.”

 

Sounds jaded as hell, but that’s what happens when your world crumbles and has to be rebuilt, heh. 

 

Ill let you know when it no longer hurts me when she’s loving on me 

I was wondering what happened with you. You kinda just disappeared.

Unfortunately it never goes away,  its becomes a part of you, and part of your relationship,  your story. 

The pain lessens over time,  the trust comes back, how much is greatly dependent upon your spouse.  Although I believe for some it doesn't come back.

My situation was a bit different because I didn't officially know she had an affair.  I mean I knew, and she knew I knew but denied it still.  She threw around ILU and I believed her, I just didn't know if it was the kind of love I was interested in.  I divorced her.  It was after the divorce that it became obvious how much she loved me. Still wasn't interested, not for a long time.

Sometimes believing the I love you is still not enough.  I think people can romantically love someone and still mistreat them,  it maybe the only way they know how to love. Sometimes they can love you, just not as much as they need unhealthy validation and reassurance.  Sometimes it's a very constitutional love that depends on what you can do for them. So they can say it, you can believe it and it still not be enough if it's not the kind of love you need.

[merrmeade]

On 6/20/2020 at 1:29 AM, DKT3 said:

Sometimes believing the I love you is still not enough.  I think people can romantically love someone and still mistreat them,  it maybe the only way they know how to love. Sometimes they can love you, just not as much as they need unhealthy validation and reassurance.  Sometimes it's a very constitutional love that depends on what you can do for them. So they can say it, you can believe it and it still not be enough if it's not the kind of love you need.

What do you mean by “sometimes it's a very constitutional love” ?

[DKT3]

17 minutes ago, merrmeade said:

What do you mean by “sometimes it's a very constitutional love” ?

Conditional love...autocorrect 

[merrmeade]

On 6/20/2020 at 1:29 AM, DKT3 said:

I was wondering what happened with you. You kinda just disappeared.

Unfortunately it never goes away,  its becomes a part of you, and part of your relationship,  your story. 

The pain lessens over time,  the trust comes back, how much is greatly dependent upon your spouse.  Although I believe for some it doesn't come back.

My situation was a bit different because I didn't officially know she had an affair.  I mean I knew, and she knew I knew but denied it still.  She threw around ILU and I believed her, I just didn't know if it was the kind of love I was interested in.  I divorced her.  It was after the divorce that it became obvious how much she loved me. Still wasn't interested, not for a long time.

Sometimes believing the I love you is still not enough.  I think people can romantically love someone and still mistreat them,  it maybe the only way they know how to love. Sometimes they can love you, just not as much as they need unhealthy validation and reassurance.  Sometimes it's a very [conditional] love that depends on what you can do for them. So they can say it, you can believe it and it still not be enough if it's not the kind of love you need.

Oh right! As in narcissist.

[Blind-Sided]

On 5/2/2020 at 4:18 PM, pepperbird said:

I still don't understand that at all. If you love someone, how can you cause them that level of hurt?
 

Because the WS really doesn't love the BS.  The WS may really like the BS... or the WS may be accustomed to having the BS around.  OR... or importantly... assuming the couple is married... the WS just doesn't want to lose their stuff, and have their happy life be disrupted. 

I made a comment on this in the thread about assigning responsibility on an affair.  Cheating is a conscious action.  You have to let yourself get into that situation... and you know it's wrong. But the reality is... you don't care or actually "Love" your partner enough to stop yourself.  I have a bunch of female friends... and sure... I've thought I would like to fool around with a couple of them over the years... but that's being human.  BUT... being in a committed relationship, and being a person of good morals... I made a conscious choice to NEVER go down that path. And that's because I loved my exW. (until she went totally nutz)  Even after my divorce... the one female friend who was there for me the most... and she opened up to me about her problems... I told her point blank... "I refuse to be the OM."   You may ask why?  Because even though I was single... I didn't want to be the cause of the hurt to someone else. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Blind-Sided

[mark clemson]

4 hours ago, Blind-Sided said:

Because the WS really doesn't love the BS. 

 BUT... being in a committed relationship, and being a person of good morals... I made a conscious choice to NEVER go down that path. And that's because I loved my exW. (until she went totally nutz) 

Even after my divorce... the one female friend who was there for me the most... and she opened up to me about her problems... I told her point blank... "I refuse to be the OM."   You may ask why?  Because even though I was single... I didn't want to be the cause of the hurt to someone else. 

While there's certainly nothing wrong with behaving ethically and responsibly, and it's in fact commendable, you seem to be conflating "love" and "morality" in this post.

Maybe your point is that if you love someone you wouldn't risk hurting them? That's a reasonable view. Not the only possible one, but a reasonable one.

Clearly you didn't love your wife enough to never have occasion to make a conscious decision not to stray, since you directly refer to making that decision.

I think some would say that if you TRULY loved your spouse, you'd never even THINK about straying - ie, there's be no interest to the point where a decision would even need to be made. However, I think that's not realistic. People are human and feel attraction and marriages and LTRs have ups and downs. Some folks I think have idealistic and high minded ideas about love that aren't actually realistic, or possibly some folks simply experience it differently than many others do. Or perhaps in a few cases they're the lucky few where their marriages are SO fantastic they never would even think about anyone else. Good for them, I guess.

Edited June 30, 2020 by mark clemson

[Amethyst68]

24 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

While there's certainly nothing wrong with behaving ethically and responsibly, and it's in fact commendable, you seem to be conflating "love" and "morality" in this post.

Maybe your point is that if you love someone you wouldn't risk hurting them? That's a reasonable view. Not the only possible one, but a reasonable one.

Clearly you didn't love your wife enough to never have occasion to make a conscious decision not to stray, since you directly refer to making that decision.

I think some would say that if you TRULY loved your spouse, you'd never even THINK about straying - ie, there's be no interest to the point where a decision would even need to be made. However, I think that's not realistic. People are human and feel attraction and marriages and LTRs have ups and downs. Some folks I think have idealistic and high minded ideas about love that aren't actually realistic, or possibly some folks simply experience it differently than many others do. Or perhaps in a few cases they're the lucky few where their marriages are SO fantastic they never would even think about anyone else. Good for them, I guess.

So as a WS who made a conscious decision to cheat on his wife what's your own viewpoint/definition?

[mark clemson]

A fair question. I would point out that my "conscious decision" was initially to flirt only. Feelings developed and as I saw the person regularly in the course of my workweek they intensified. I did not consciously avoid talking to them. Neither did I consciously have sex with them. In fact I never told her I loved her or actually even touched her at all.  Although I fell in love with my EAP I never acted on that (to the extent of a PA). That distinction may mean little to you, but it means a LOT to me, as some boundaries (the most important ones in my personal view) were not crossed.

I don't think love equates to morality. I actually feel that limerence is being fully "in love". However since it doesn't last and is actually a brain chemistry phenomenon, LTR "love" is what many of us actually do/experience, e.g. to raise children. That is a reasonable compromise and IMO what most people can reasonably expect from life. There should be love in that LTR, but it won't be the same heady love that we experience the first 6 months of a relationship (NRE) or especially in limerence.

Morality is a separate issue.

While you may not particularly like this answer, I think we can "love" two people. For example one in the LTR of a marriage and another in the NRE of a PA or strong emotional connection and/or limerence of an EA. Those are actually two different forms of love. (And I believe they are different from a brain chemistry perspective.)

Obviously in a situation like that, one or both will be hurt or betrayed. Hence morality must be separate from (the emotion of) love.

BTW, I'm not try to suggest that my emotional connection justified my actions. Affairs are inherently unethical (they involve deception) and I concede that mine was as well.

Edited June 30, 2020 by mark clemson