Follow-up to "Losing my marbles.." thread

[mrB2006]

THIS WILL BE IT, but since it seems that our meeting went fairly well, I have one other question. Her birthday is coming up in a little over three weeks. Would it be inapropriate for me to send her a birthday card? I have been thinking that I came off a little strong over Christmas. And since I at least have a little bit of her attention now, I wouldn't want to squander it by going overboard. I mean, she gave me the impression that over time we could be more than friends. But a part of me is still very cautious about the situation.

 

I mentioned my proposition to some of my coworkers. Most told me that what I told them was a very positive sign. Although a few told me that they still think she isn't worth the effort. (Aimee, they pretty much said that she was too high maintainenced for a guy like me).

 

And she told me that she enjoys getting my letters. Supposedly she doesnt get much mail from anyone other than her immediate family.

 

Oh, and by the way, I have that blind date set up for this Thursday evening. I think it will be o.k..

 

MrB

[whichwayisup]

Silly man. You bought her an Xmas gift so ofcourse send her a card. Be friendly and casual but not gushy. I think she'll appreciate it.

 

Good luck with the blind date on Thursday. Look forward to that update after the date.

[noclobber]

THIS WILL BE IT, but since it seems that our meeting went fairly well, I have one other question. Her birthday is coming up in a little over three weeks. Would it be inapropriate for me to send her a birthday card? I have been thinking that I came off a little strong over Christmas. And since I at least have a little bit of her attention now, I wouldn't want to squander it by going overboard. I mean, she gave me the impression that over time we could be more than friends. But a part of me is still very cautious about the situation.

 

I mentioned my proposition to some of my coworkers. Most told me that what I told them was a very positive sign. Although a few told me that they still think she isn't worth the effort. (Aimee, they pretty much said that she was too high maintainenced for a guy like me).

 

And she told me that she enjoys getting my letters. Supposedly she doesnt get much mail from anyone other than her immediate family.

 

Oh, and by the way, I have that blind date set up for this Thursday evening. I think it will be o.k..

 

MrB

 

dude,

 

i seriously don't understand why u keep pining for that woman so much.. what is so great about her? is she an angel that walked down from heaven? i am not trying to be rude but only trying to save u from further agony..

 

what makes u think the previous meeting went so well? did she kiss u on ur lips and say she wants to be with u? no, all she did was feel happy AFTER receiving gifts from you. any woman wud feel happy after they get gifts. i dunno why u gave gifts in the first place... that's a separate question in itself. she is getting so much from u but doesn't have the decency to give anything in return. by this time u shud have kicked her to the curb but b'cos u r a nice guy u keep giving ur attention and gifts to that woman. this is exactly the problem with nice guys.. a strong man wud have let that woman go and moved on!! that's the strength that u shud display. this person is not the be all and end all...

 

new year is looming around the corner.. make a resolution not to think about her again and move on with ur life. i am damn sure u will get a wonderful woman that u so richly deserve!

[Aimée]

I think I left her with the feeling that "Hey, he may be shy. But he does care about me".

The shyness is not the problem, the problem is that you don't feel you are good enough for her. She will appreciate all your kindness, gentleness, etc., she will miss you a lot, love you till you both don't have teeth anymore, but if you don't overcome your self-confidence issues you won't attract her. If there is no spark and chemistry, then you won't succeed with her. This may sound easy, but if she doesn't want to have sex with you, then you are out, even if you are a saint and would donate your liver, spleen, kidneys and any other of your vital organs to her if she needed them. She still won't give a sh*t for you as a partner, ok????? People who have a great life will not think of potentially bad times when they choose a partner, I'm not even sure if people with a bad life would choose someone who smothers them with taking care of them for the rest of their life would feel the spark. Give her high-maintenance character I just simply doubt that she will accept less.

 

Concerning the rest of your post, it's all cute and nice, but in my opinion, it doesn't mean that much. You can love someone dearly and still not want to have him as a boyfriend. She's sad, because she will miss your companionship, but that won't make her go for a relationship with you, she knows she would miss the spark in it too much. She's not a coward who would be content with a safe, but mediocre relationship, she wants it all and she knows she can have it all, so you either ignite the spark or you should go for someone else.

 

Let me repeat the most important thing: No matter how nice you are, that won't make her feel attracted or fall in love with you. Maybe when you really gave her your liver and what else she needs for surviving there would be a change, but I guess we're not talking about extremes. And even then I'm not sure. In my opinion, a gal who is such a high-maintenance person as she is, will not choose you, because you are so nice.

 

I do feel for you, I know how it is to be in love with someone and not be able to make that person see it, but you're too much focused on pleasing her. I appreciate it when someone does me a favor, because he's a nice person, I do not appreciate it when he does it in order to show me how nice he is.

 

Your love contains so much neediness and a feeling of unworthiness, that you will not get anywhere with her. You approach it totally wrong, you must make yourself the starting point for improvements. I've been following your story since you came here and I and other posters translated her girl-speak for you, we have explained what she wanted , it was not more 'niceness', it was not 'more debates', her main complaint was that you were not assertive enough. Listen, if she has told you this, then she made it clear what bothered her most and what she needed the most from you, you can therefore be assured that being awfully nice is not going to save your neck. Stop insisting that your niceness is what she wants, you're just needy. When she thinks of a future with you she will be afraid that you won't stop kissing her butt. She doesn't need your niceness, because she can do most things on her own, only if you meet her real needs you will succeed.

 

I have been thinking that I came off a little strong over Christmas. And since I at least have a little bit of her attention now, I wouldn't want to squander it by going overboard. I mean, she gave me the impression that over time we could be more than friends.

Man, wake up!! From what are you concluding you have her attention now???? You may have made her feel loved and cared for, but trust me, the moment a nice guy with intelligence and self-confidence appears on the scene, you're out. She's not going to sacrifice her happiness with someone else, because you are so in love with her.

 

And she told me that she enjoys getting my letters. Supposedly she doesnt get much mail from anyone other than her immediate family.

Well, great, you entertain her... So what?

 

Good luck with your blind date.

[noclobber]

Great reply Aimee'

 

If there is no spark and chemistry, then you won't succeed with her.

 

u have pretty much said everything in that one sentence. please make it clear, in your own words, what exactly it means and how a man can create that spark and chemistry.. it will be helpful, not just for Mr.B, but for everybody in this forum.

[Aimée]

I just wanted to add, a girl who is hinting expects you to be smart enough to understand her. It's not fair or mature, but that's just how it is. Most people want to fall in love with the right perfect person, they do not want to work on making the other person good enough so that they will fall in love, it's supposed to happen naturally.

 

If someone is genuinely interested in you, they would show their interest in you and tell you what disturbs them, if they only hint they're not really actively seeking you or wanting to open their heart to you. They sit, give you a cue occasionally, but that's it. They in general like what they see, but they also see a lot of other stuff that they don't like and therefore they don't think it's worth it to invest emotional effort in it yet. That's why I say, the moment someone intelligent and self-confident appears, you'll be gone, because she's not emotionally hooked up on you. Of course she likes you and she would miss having someone to talk and who sends her emails, but it would still be ok, she's not going to die or have a heartache about it. If you really like someone and have invested emotions and know the other person likes you, too, you will stop hinting and tell more directly what you want, because you do want the situation to work out.

 

Noclobber, I'm not sure how spark and chemistry are created. I can only tell what works with me and what not. A couple of things that made me like people was, a certain genuineness about themselves, they didn't pretend to be someone they were not and they didn't try to gain control over a situation by playing games like not answering an email in order to appear more independent or interesting. They felt safe in themselves to have feelings and to show it. I feel annoyed when people try to create an artificial mystery around themselves in order to keep me on my toes. I'm certainly not going to build an emotional connection with someone who is playing tricks on me. I like it when they are friendly. I also like it when people can do me a favor without making it look as if you will have to be eternally grateful for it or as if they are trying to buy you with it. I also think it's not great when someone doesn't want to help you, because he's afraid of looking weak. I think one of the most important thing when interacting with a woman is that you remind yourself that she is another human being not someone superior. You must be sure of yourself enough that you will face her as an equal. It's ok to like her and it's ok to let her know that you do, it doesn't mean you are weak as long as you always maintain the respect for yourself. Nothing can reduce your worth unless you let them, that's something really important to remember. It's the sustainable approach for the long term and for this you need to let your personality speak for itself, you need to have your own life and pursue your interests, develop a personality. I can't remember more right now, it also probably depends on the individuals what attracts them and what is important to them.

 

I once met someone at a party and I liked the way he looked, he wasn't tall, maybe 5' 7", but he looked intellectual and friendly. I asked him what he was doing and he said he was working in a museum. I thought that was cool. We later talked a bit, I was a bit tipsy and whining about something and he made me feel understood (very good). He left to dance - that is something really sexy (I really think if you want to make a women stop seeing you as an asexual thing you should learn how to dance and feel comfortable with it. A dance with her where you simply seem to enjoy yourself and her company can change a lot. Dancing is sexy and shows self-confidence, also most men don't really like doing it, so you will gain some advantage if you do it.). I didn't fall for him madly that night, but I really liked him. He didn't treat me differently because I was a woman, he treated me like everybody else, with respect and an open mind.

[mrB2006]

Oh well, I tried:(

[mrB2006]

Aimee, I did not give her the gift because I wanted to show her how nice I was. I bought her the gift because I wanted her to have it. It took me months to come up with a gift that she would like. I DID NOT expect anything in return. Of course the good guy who tries is always labeled the 'nice guy'. And that does kind of hurt. (I know, I will get repsonse like "Quit being such a p*ssy").

 

And the idea that my love was full of neediness and unworthiness is not true.

Well, I don't want to really comment more on that.

 

And if a woman tells you that she hates it when guys tell her that she is perfect, then why is she the hipocrite when it comes to the guy. She wants a perfect relationship and that entails having the perfect bf. Well, I can quarantee you that that is just a pipedream...Nobody in this world is perfect.

 

Thanks for your responses,

 

 

 

MrB

 

 

[mrB2006]

To hell with not making a comment about my "neediness and unworthiness", By God I am not needy. I am comfortable with myself. I guess I would have to be if I am about to journey 16,000 around the world and live amongst the local population for over two years. It takes a lot of balls to just get up and leave your own surroundings so that you could help those who need technical assistance in a developing country. I am not needy. I have everything I need material and spritual in this world. The only thing I require is lady who loves me for who I am. Unworthiness. Bah! I am definately worthy of her company (and any other lady's company). I am a cool guy. I like to dance (although think Elaine off of Seinfeld). Yes, I may be bit of an "asexual" type. But that doesnt mean that I dont want to screw some chick. That chance will occur in due time. Yes, I admit that I need to learn to set sparks with a chick. But again, I will learn. I am no Casanova, but there is a worthy guy beneath the veneer.

 

But I am not needy. And I am not unworthy. I have a lot to offer.

 

And if giving a girl you truely love a thoughtful gift is considered "needy" then that really sucks big time....

 

Aimee, I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your input. But I strongly disagree with some of what you said.

 

MrB

[Aimée]

You're asking why I think you are 'needy' and 'unworthy'?

 

Let's first clarify, I do think you are needy, but if it helps you, I also think that I am needy as well. I feel a deep insecurity concerning some people. It doesn't mean that I allow everybody to push me over or that I'm not able to maintain a position in a debate, but concerning relationships I'm insecure, I fear rejection more than anything, etc. while objectively I wouldn't say I'm a bad catch.

 

I didn't say you were unworthy, I said it was you who felt like this about yourself.

 

All during the mass, she would whisper in my ear what was going on and give me a cute smile. (I was pleased she was letting me in on what was happening.)

You're taking way too much pleasure out of the crumbs she's feeding you. I translate with: "I feel honored that she is paying attention to me. It's so great that she is explaining to me what is going on when I have no clue." Please tell me, if she invites you as her guest and you are sitting with her alone in a place and have no clue what is going on, wouldn't it be the most normal thing in the world that she explains to you what is happening during the mass? I'd rather think that is part of hospitality.

 

After going to the several church services, I feel renewed. It is rather amazing if you think about it. And I am really appreciative to my friend for letting me come with her.

Why should she not????? You're making a fuss out of nothing. You do it, because you think you're not worth of her attention and nice treatment. Would you show this kind of thankfulness to any of your male friends??? Would you say, "I'm sooo appreciative that my friend took me to the mignight mass with him. And he even explained to me what was going on. I'm so moved." - Sure... You're looking at the good side of her actions with a magnifying glass.

 

It would have been normal to say, she was a really nice host and we had a good time together, but all the details you have listed here about her and praised are nice things, but certainly would not deserve such attention and gratefulness as you display here.

 

Other things I noticed:

 

While we were sitting in the pews, I noticed we were sitting fairly close to each other. I tried to go for her hand, but she refused it. That was o.k..

It's not ok, because it means, she doesn't want physical contact with you. And why do you try to take two steps at once? If you far away it would have been smarter to get closer to her slowly and then if she doesn't mind this, try to take her hand. It's obvious that when such a great distance is between you guys that going for her hand timidly won't produce a lot of results.

 

In my driveway, she looked at me with a smile on her face. She held my hand and thanked me. It looked like she was about ready to cry again.

You're looking at her like she was some little sensitive woman who needs your protection.

[Aimée]

Aimee, I did not give her the gift because I wanted to show her how nice I was. I bought her the gift because I wanted her to have it. It took me months to come up with a gift that she would like.

MONTHS??? Why are placing so much importance on a gift??? You only do this when you think the person is supersuperimportant and deserves the absolutely best. You know, she would have liked any other gift as well. If it took you months to pick out of the right gift, you have obviously blown the importance of the gift and also the importance of the receiver out of proportion.

 

I DID NOT expect anything in return.

Of course not, knowing that you have served your goddess well must have given you a good feeling.

 

Of course the good guy who tries is always labeled the 'nice guy'. And that does kind of hurt. (I know, I will get repsonse like "Quit being such a p*ssy").

 

And if a woman tells you that she hates it when guys tell her that she is perfect, then why is she the hipocrite when it comes to the guy. She wants a perfect relationship and that entails having the perfect bf. Well, I can quarantee you that that is just a pipedream...Nobody in this world is perfect.

Why should she not want the best for herself? And why should she not want other people to think she's perfect? The latter puts a lot of pressure on her, the former puts a lot of pressure on you. Of course, it's not fair. And? Is she supposed to have a relationship with you, because in your own world that would mean fair?

[mrB2006]

Aimee,

I'll I am saying here is that she WAS the first woman to actually take an interest in me. And I am very appreciative of that fact.

 

I'll admit it. I have never really had a girlfriend before in my life. I have tried but to no avail. Yes, I probably messed this up.

 

And no I do not think of her as a goddess. She has her faults.

 

And, btw, she is not a sensitive lil girl. This gal knows some karate. She could kick my ass to shreads.

 

About the mass: I should have explaned it a little better. Here goes: We were sitting very close. I tried to move my hand to hers. Although I stopped when I felt her upper arm nudge my arm. I stopped there, knowing that that was a signal. But what isn't easy to explain is why did she want to hold my hand in the car after the mass. And why did she give me a hug telling me how much she appreciates me showing up to the mass with her.

 

About the mass itself, she whispered to me constantly. She really wouldnt let me just sit there and enjoy the service. Yes, it is pure hospitality. But come on, I am not that dumb when it come to religion (for women, maybe).

 

I dont think I mentioned this either, but she said that she wanted to get me something really nice for my trip. I told her that she didnt have to. But she insisted. She also gave me a smile saying that she really wanted to write to me while I was overseas. Now, she knows I still have feelings for her. Why would she give me crumbs like this? I was expecting her to say thanks and that would be it. I didn't expect her to get all emotional on me. That is why I figured that I had a slim shot at success.

 

mrB

[noclobber]

But what isn't easy to explain is why did she want to hold my hand in the car after the mass.

 

why did u allow her to hold your hand??? just look at the situation... when u want to hold her hand she just pushes u off. but when she wants to hold urs u allow it. she knows that u r just a toy. man, u need self-respect!

 

About the mass itself, she whispered to me constantly. She really wouldnt let me just sit there and enjoy the service. Yes, it is pure hospitality. But come on, I am not that dumb when it come to religion (for women, maybe).

 

okay, she kept whispering in ur ears.. now whats ur point?

 

I dont think I mentioned this either, but she said that she wanted to get me something really nice for my trip. I told her that she didnt have to. But she insisted. She also gave me a smile saying that she really wanted to write to me while I was overseas. Now, she knows I still have feelings for her. Why would she give me crumbs like this? I was expecting her to say thanks and that would be it. I didn't expect her to get all emotional on me. That is why I figured that I had a slim shot at success. mrB

 

that's b'cos she is not allowing u to guilt-trip her. once she gives u a gift the score is settled and the play is even! and what's so great if she smiled at u? just because she smiles at u and says she wants to write letters to u doesn't mean that she is interested in you. and for ur question of why she does it when she knows that u have feelings for her, here is the answer => that's how women are. once they know that they have a guy's attention they wud love to play head games with them regardless of whether they have feelings or not. she is just loving all the attention and the gifts that u r pouring on her. that's it. she doesn't love YOU, just ur attention! u got to be careful and walk away the moment u realize that ur feelings r not returned. but instead u r just running after her like a puppy and this cruel woman is enjoying it.

 

Mr.B, please man, let this woman go!! SHE IS NOT INTERESTED AND WILL NEVER BE!!!!

[clandestinidad]

Unless this girl is extremely reserved and moves extremely slowly in relationships, I agree with everything noclobber & aimee have said.

 

Unfortunately, most women DO manipulate and lead men on when they are getting the praise and attention they want from someone who has defined themselves as an infatuated, obsessed weakling. (i'm not calling you that, just thinking back on guys i've had experiences with) Youre acting like a prince-servant, catering to her....most females dream of this. The ironic thing is, we lose ALL respect and attraction for the one's who do this. We dont want a weak servant, we want a strong confident self-respecting man who doesnt let us get away with manipulations.

 

So, why does she do certain things, give you little crumbs to savor every now and then?? To keep you focused on HER, dreaming of her, waiting on her....you've given her all the power, and that is UGLY to females!!

 

The only thing you can do now, if you really want to change this situation, is to ignore her for a while. Go on your blind date, which she should know about, and DO NOT TALK TO HER AFTER IT!!! It will totally shake her foundation to think that your focus is on another person....

 

but beware of this situation as well, b/c she will still only want your focus back on HER for selfish reasons...never to actually be in a loving relationship w/ you

[SmoochieFace]

Unfortunately, most women DO manipulate and lead men on when they are getting the praise and attention they want. Youre acting like a prince-servant, catering to her....most females dream of this. The ironic thing is, we lose ALL respect and attraction for the one's who do this.

 

So, why does she do certain things, give you little crumbs to savor every now and then?? To keep you focused on HER, dreaming of her, waiting on her....you've given her all the power, and that is UGLY to females!!

 

And this is why some guys think women are nuts.

 

Good god... you like the praise and attention from these guys and then you turn right around and diss them for it. Uh, sounds quite screwy to me!

[clandestinidad]

Theres an ENORMOUS difference b/n attention and weak, servant-like, obsessed attention

 

The first makes us feel good, and attracted to the person. The latter makes us tyrannical and selfish, just using the person for the time being

 

Actual, 'tyrant' is an excellent word in this guys case. MrB here you go......

 

1 a : an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution b : a usurper of sovereignty

2 a : a ruler who exercises absolute power oppressively or brutally b : one resembling an oppressive ruler in the harsh use of authority or power

 

Even tyrants know the importance of giving your subjects savory morsels every now and then

[SmoochieFace]

Theres an ENORMOUS difference b/n attention and weak, servant-like, obsessed attention

 

You said "...getting the praise and attention they want." Your words - my emphasis.

 

So do they *want* the weak, servant-like, obsessed attention or do they want just any sort of attention?

[noclobber]

You said "...getting the praise and attention they want." Your words - my emphasis.

 

So do they *want* the weak, servant-like, obsessed attention or do they want just any sort of attention?

 

i think a woman will enjoy the attention and praise from a man and like him for that... but which woman will enjoy all the attention and gifts EVEN AFTER she has clearly indicated that she is not interested in the guy? if the guy doesn't move on then that clearly indicates that he is weak and is still trying to win his OA's love via gifts... that's like bribing!

[clandestinidad]

SF, I guess another way I can say it is this:

 

we like/crave most attention. If that attention is percieved as weak & servant-like then the person is immediately placed in the "I'm going to use you to feel good about myself" category. They have ruined any attraction and respect from us

[SmoochieFace]

i think a woman will enjoy the attention and praise from a man and like him for that... but which woman will enjoy all the attention and gifts EVEN AFTER she has clearly indicated that she is not interested in the guy? if the guy doesn't move on then that clearly indicates that he is weak and is still trying to win his OA's love via gifts... that's like bribing!

 

All right... tell me what this means to you. Pay close mind to what has been highlighted... of course, the post has been edited now about three times.

 

**********

 

Unfortunately, most women DO manipulate and lead men on when they are getting the praise and attention they want from someone who has defined themselves as an infatuated, obsessed weakling. (i'm not calling you that, just thinking back on guys i've had experiences with) Youre acting like a prince-servant, catering to her....most females dream of this. The ironic thing is, we lose ALL respect and attraction for the one's who do this. We dont want a weak servant, we want a strong confident self-respecting man who doesnt let us get away with manipulations.

 

**********

 

"...acting like a prince-servant, catering to her....most females dream of this."

 

"...we lose ALL respect and attraction for the one's who do this."

 

See the disconnect here? I mean, why would a woman *dream* of something that would cause her to lose respect?

[SmoochieFace]

If that attention is percieved as weak & servant-like then the person is immediately placed in the "I'm going to use you to feel good about myself" category.

 

And why is that? Please explain the dynamics behind this reasoning as this is completely alien to my way of thinking.

[clandestinidad]

B/c there's something very wrong with our sense of logic....I dont know why right now, really. I just know that its true.

 

We dream of the prince, we dream of being catered to...pampered, put on a pedestal. But there comes a certain time in the beginning of the relationship where there's a fork in the road. If it becomes too much, and too servant-like then we put them in the "someone to use" category. Knowing that we can walk all over him is extremely unattractive. It means that he's not his own person, he's not strong enough, he doesnt have much self-confidence, he doesnt stand up for himself, etc etc

[clandestinidad]

I wont edit that last post, I'll just make a new one ;P

 

Its kind of the same idea as this situation:

A man wants to go do something but his wife/girlfriend doesnt want him to b/c she wants to go shopping together. (we'll say its going to play golf or something, and they didnt already have previous plans) He decides to go play golf.

Now even though she wont be very happy about the result, she will still have respect for him b/c he stood up for himself and did what he wanted, and didnt let her push him around.

 

Every now and then a little pampering or putting on that pedestal is WONDERFUL, but its when its CONSTANT that we lose respect and attraction

[SmoochieFace]

B/c there's something very wrong with our sense of logic....I dont know why right now, really. I just know that its true.

 

We dream of the prince, we dream of being catered to...pampered, put on a pedestal. But there comes a certain time in the beginning of the relationship where there's a fork in the road. If it becomes too much, and too servant-like then we put them in the "someone to use" category. Knowing that we can walk all over him is extremely unattractive. It means that he's not his own person, he's not strong enough, he doesnt have much self-confidence, he doesnt stand up for himself, etc etc

 

This sounds like a behaviour practised by younger women... now I know why I prefer older women. *sigh*

 

Being attentive and caring about another person and her needs isn't indicative of being weak. I am attentive to my GF and I pamper her yet she doesn't *walk all over me* and I certainly am not perceived as being weak or unattractive. In fact, my attentiveness is one major factor that attracted her to me unlike her XH who was quite oblivious.

 

A guy can be his own person and still be a gentleman. Nothing weak about being a gentleman as it takes strength of character to be one. OTOH, it takes little, if any, effort to be a complete ass.

[clandestinidad]

Maybe I'm not explaining it very well then. B/c I'm talking about those guys who constantly cater to, serve, and pamper in the ways that Mr.B has, not ones who are just caring or attentive