Follow-up to "Losing my marbles.." thread

October 12, 2005

aimee,

I was going to use your sample for the letter.

however, I plan to first mention that I'll take responsibilty for the letter (and for the silence between us)

I think you are right... She doesn't have the guts to acknowledge me. She really has come across as coward and not worth my time. (I kind of pity her, Not for rejecting me, but because it seems like this is a repeating pattern with her- I hope she finds happiness with someone)

mbrB2006

October 13, 2005

The letter I plan to send on Friday. Looking for feedback:

Paraphrased:

"I realize that I have been a moron. I should have known better. But I did send that letter. I knew the risks. Therefore I should accept the consequences.

However, I must let you know that it took me time to figure out what I wanted. so, i'll understand if your hesitating as well. If there are things you would like to discuss with me, please give me a call. If you prefer to stay friends as before, it would be nice of you to drop me a line.

I may have broken your trust. And I may have come off as "too clingy". But that was never my intention."

Will this suffice? Is it too sappy or is it to the point?

If this doesn't work, I'll certainly forget about her.

mrB2006

October 13, 2005

"I realize that I have been a moron. I should have known better. But I did send that letter. I knew the risks. Therefore I should accept the consequences.

I strongly recommend that you leave this part out. Don't apologize for your feelings, it's ok to have fallen for a girl and to have feelings for her, so don't belittle them, that only shows a great deal of insecurity and a very low self-esteem. Take your defeat like a man and don't whine or apologize, you did what you had to do and you stand up for them. At least she will not be reenforced in any negative image of you.

Consider your affection for her to be an investment that unfortunately hasn't brought you a lot of success in the short term, but what you're going to do now is, in your mind you will turn it into a long-term investement where some day you will get some benefits out of it. For the moment though you will stop to invest more energy or effort in it, you will stay out of it and let it develop. By continuing to be polite and nice, you will maintain the investment. If you give in to self-pity or anger, you will lose it for sure.

However, I must let you know that it took me time to figure out what I wanted. so, i'll understand if your hesitating as well. If there are things you would like to discuss with me, please give me a call. If you prefer to stay friends as before, it would be nice of you to drop me a line.

Write instead: It took me some time to figure out... ("I must let you know" sounds a bit formal and like beating around the bush). Keep it nice and light. Remember, you're a cool guy, tell it to yourself a couple of times. Don't despair or you'll drive her away.

I may have broken your trust. And I may have come off as "too clingy". But that was never my intention."

I'd drop this, too. You haven't done anything bad yet.

If this doesn't work, I'll certainly forget about her.

I'm not sure what is going to work, I can only give some help what you should not do if you don't want to drive her away completely. I base my advice more or less on my own experiences with guys who liked me and who made some mistakes that turned the friendship into a very awkward mess. I know some who behaved better, it wasn't enough to make me fall in love with them, but at least I didn't feel so uncomfortable around them to start avoiding their presence. Till now I have also not seen a guy who managed to pick up the clues that I was giving out and I think that was the way it was supposed to be, because I often realized after a while that they were not the right ones for me and I not for them. They just hadn't realized the incompatibility yet as I had.

I can tell from my own experience that when you fall madly crazily in love with someone who doesn't return your feelings, it's very likely that you're projecting a lot of your own fears and insecurities on said person. If people are right for each other and follow the flow, they will end up with each other, when one of them tries to force it, he's blocking the flow and suddenly you will find alienation instead of intimacy.

October 13, 2005

aimee,

Thanks, I will cut those lines from the letter.

Your advice has been very helpful.

thanks again

mrB2006

October 13, 2005

The Letter has been written. Aimee, I followed your advice and left out all the self-deprecating stuff. It does read much better with it gone.

I pretty much copied what you wrote. Also, I kept it upbeat. I updated her on my current and future career plans. I wished her luck at school and closed the letter.

You're right. I should look at all this as a long-term investment. Rome wasn't built in day. However, I am keeping my expectations at a lower level. By the indications given to me, I royally screwed up. I hope this letter at least makes up a little bit for my pathetic attempt earlier. I'll wait and see.

(If I don't hear back from her, I plan to drop most contact. I will leave the contact stuff up to her now. I have tried. However, I do plan to send her a email birthday card when that rolls around.-I should have a little class.)

mrB2006

October 14, 2005

I'm glad you're taking it so well.

We all make mistakes when we're in love and it can be very hard to understand the other gender. But that's why LS is for.

I remember being in love with a friend once (who unfortunately had a girlfriend and wasn't interested in me anyway) and it made me quite nervous and tense. I thought he was so cool and good-looking and I had such heartaches because of him. We kind of stayed friends even though I found it pretty difficult. I went away for a year and a half, met and fell in love with other people and when I saw him again I realized he was absolutely not the kind of person I wanted to date. I guess, I was just very desperate and in my mind I constructed this image of him that was not compatible with reality. Also I think we just had a very different personality and very different interests, but I hadn't noticed it then. Infatuation and desperation had blinded me. Now we come to the fun part of my story Now it's him who likes me, but I'm absolutely not interested anymore. It's weird, he tells me we would make such a good couple and tells me we should hang out more while I can't really see anything that we would have in common and I don't want to hang with him because as a friend he's too interested in me. The moral of the story is, sometimes it pays off to be patient and eventually you might see the tables turned. It's important that you respect yourself enough and with time people will come to respect you, too.

December 7, 2005

Ok...an update to an update...

I got into the volunteer program that will take me overseas several years. I emailed her to let her know that I got in. (She has supported me in my efforts). She emailed back saying how happy she was for me. She also said that she would call me over the Thanksgiving break...no call came. Well, I emailed her a travel question. (she is an experienced world traveler). She emailed back saying that she is happy for me and that I will have to have dinner with her when she gets back for Christmas break. She said she "can't WAIT" to talk with me. She also says we can chat for a 'long time and catch up'.

Also, I will be heading to Asia for this program. She will be in the same region to for her graduate study (in fact, it is just a three hour plane ride). Coincidence?

I guess I am reading WAY too much into that....

Question...How do I approach this impending dinner? How should I handle myself? I still have feelings towards her....Is it me, or she to 'happy' to see me?

I pathetic part of me still thinks something is there...However, the rational side says that this boat has already sailed....But, I don't quite know....

Well,

Thanks in advance

mrB

December 7, 2005

Forgot: She wants to have me over at her house for dinner (...possibly with her parents?) (I have met the mother many times...she is nice and seems to get me into conversations when I see her).

mrB

December 10, 2005

I think you're problem might be that you act a bit like an asexual being, you're her friend, she confides in you, you're interesting, but you haven't made her realize completely yet that you're a man who is interested in and appreciates her as a woman.

I doubt a bit that you will be able to change your behavior completely in such a short time. It's actually not only your behavior around her that you have to change, but you need a complete change of your philosophy on life. You must become aware that no matter what happens to you, deep inside there is still this part of you that no one can touch. You are you. And individual, with your dreams and hopes. No matter what she does, you will still remain the same person, you will stay have your goals. That's a very important lesson. I think it was RR who cited the first vers of the poem "If" by Rudyard Kipling about becoming a man. This is how you need to change. You need to respect yourself, you need to respect others and you need to forgive them when they fail to show you the same amount of respect. You need to believe in yourself and that you deserve respect. When you have truly reached this level of confidence then you will be more generous, more understanding and and more forgiving towards people who don't appreciate you holding the door open for them (I saw your other thread ).

It is absolutely okay to let her know how you feel. Men who show interest and emotions are not wussies. You can do everything as long as you respect yourself and stand up to it. You're allowed to compliment her, be attentive, show her that you're interested in her, but always keep your pride and don't stoop to anybody. Nobody will be able to humiliate you or to demean you unless you allow it. You don't even have to fight back, sometimes turning your back and breaking off contact will be enough to show that you're not someone who lets people walk all over him. You need to ingrain this belief in you if you want to succeed with her. It's actually a power struggle between her and you. If you can't show her you're an equal, you're out. I know a really nice gentle guy and even though he might seem to be a bit too nice, he also has a deep belief in himself. Sure, there are insecurities, but he will still make his way. He falls down once in a while, but he will get up again. And he still manages to be very polite and nice, in fact, he's way more gentle than I am, I'm pretty irritable , and I still respect him a lot.

If you get the chance to kiss her, do it. Absolutely do it. Be active. It's about the spark. If you do it well, she will want more, but don't become too lovey-dovey and ask her for the next step. Keep the suspense and let her work first a bit if she wants to get more of the good stuff. Tell her that you worry a bit about your future as you're far away, etc. (don't make it too dramatic, just show her that you have some slight doubts now, that you're somewhat hesitating). She's not stupid, she probably knows that she won't be that far away from you, so if she's really interested she'll start pursuing you. Take it slow. She probably has somewhat of a hunter mentality and you must let her do some of the pursuing. You must make yourself interesting enough (show her you're an equal) and not be too available. Don't give in to her whimsical needs, but also don't play games. Games are for people who are insecure and people see through it. Be reasonable.

My last advice, I would not start making any assumptions about her level of interest in you. Consider her invitation to be an act of kindness from a friend, but that's it. If there is more to come, you'll see it soon enough. If you're prepared for the worst, you'll have more success.

December 11, 2005

Aimee, Thank you for your encouraging words. I am trying to change my whole philosophy on life. I am trying to be a better person. (I am trying to change because I want to).

I know my threads have come across as an act of desperation. To be brutally honest I thought that I reached that level for a reason. Let me explain: I have never really loved anyone in my life (exception being my family). Yes, I had a few instances of infatuation with women. But this 'friend' of mine has been my true 'first love'. The feeling was (and still is) great. She has shown me so much of her life and I am appreciative of that. She is a fun, intelligent, attractive, and caring person. I just would like to reciprocate what she has done for me. I showed her a little of myself, but not nearly enough. Now I want to share more with her. I miss her because she was there for me. And I want to be there for her.

I think she told me what I needed to do...I need to change my attitude on life...and that's what I plan to accomplish.

But for now, I will play it safe. I don't expect much to change. But you never know....

Thanks Aimee

mrB

--About the 'door opening' stuff--I was in a bad mood that day. The boss was on my case. That's still no excuse....

December 11, 2005

Also:

I am trying to prepare myself mentally and emotionally for this upcoming dinner. I am trying to lower my expectations.

I went ahead and bought her a Christmas gift. I got her a travel journal, a fountain pen, and a cd (I have a copy and it has become one of my favorites).

mrB

December 11, 2005

I showed her a little of myself, but not nearly enough. Now I want to share more with her.

That's the wrong approach. By spilling your guts to her you're not achieving anything. This girl knows you already. Nothing that you're going to reveal about yourself will ignite the spark in her. It's time to take actions, not talking.

I miss her because she was there for me.

That sounds cute, but won't get you further.

And I want to be there for her.

You must stop thinking this immediately. Definitely. This is one of the worst things you can think, because this thought will transform and manifest itself in clingy and needy behavior. You're smothering this poor girl. I'm nearly inclined to say, you like her weak so you can have more control over her. She's not a fragile doll and right now she does not want to share her issues with you. If she's not attracted to you yet, then she doesn't want to talk about this stuff with you and if you start approaching her with this strategy, be sure that you will fail. If you do this, be sure that you're going to be stuck in the friends zone forever.

December 11, 2005

Aimee: I already spilled my guts and I am not going to do that again. In fact, you are the first I told about 'revealing my life'. I don't plan on letting her know--that really would put me in the FZ forever.

I am going to this dinner like we are 'just friends'. If she brings up my letter then I will respond accordingly. Let me run this by you: If she does bring it up, I will be honest with her and tell her that I was being selfish-I was so self-aware that I neglected her feelings. I will tell her that actions speak louder than words..That is about as much as I have at the moment.

I don't quite know how to proceed

December 11, 2005

dude,

let me tell you... women do not give their guy friends a chance!!!!!! they will be more than willing to date a stranger, sleep with them, and then rant "omg where r all the nice guys?" but they will never ever allow a guy friend of theirs to date them.. regardless of how wonderful that guy is... he loses his chance just because he is her friend... i don't understand this warped psychology but that's how that entire species is... now this is lesson number one. lesson number two is -> after a woman refuses to date you, u got to take it as the final answer and keep moving on with ur life. u seem to be hung up on this one woman.. why? remember, she is the one that refused to return ur feelings!! she said NO and that's her answer now and will be forever!!!!! have some self-respect and go and date other women.... and for heaven's sake plz ask out a woman within a short span of time... if u don't u know what is going to happen... u will become her friend and she will never date u. period.

December 11, 2005

noclobber: You are right. I should forget her and move on. The thing is this: even after rejecting me she continues to give me what appears to be mixed signals. I realize that I am only a friend. And yes, I should have taken action. But I didn't. And I have to live with that.

This dinner will be the final breaker in my opinion. I just plan to go as a friend and nothing more. I am not holding out any luck.

December 11, 2005

If she does bring it up, I will be honest with her and tell her that I was being selfish-I was so self-aware that I neglected her feelings.

I think I told you before, don't excuse for the way you feel. You felt the way you did and you didn't do anything inappropiate. Apologizing for your feelings is the kiss of death. She would really think you were a wussy. I had it happen to me once. A friend of mine had feelings for me, he spilled his guts out, but said at the same time he wasn't interested in me anymore. Then we continued as if nothing happened, but of course it didn't work out. He still had feelings for me and as he denied them, it was difficult to find a basis to talk about things. By the way, I have also done the same and I found it way better to just fess up and admit that I had feelings for this person and explain that this was the reason why I had acted so weird and was so stressed.

If you're a man you can stand to your feelings without pressuring her and she will respect you for it. And if she doesn't, she's probably too immature or not worth it. There's no need to feel ashamed about the way you feel. If you feel like this, it's because you're afraid of rejection, you're afraid of her and she will not really understand it and it will make her lose respect for you. A real man wouldn't be afraid of getting rejected or he might fear it and still risk it. If you approach her and are already assuming an rejection you will get one.

I will tell her that actions speak louder than words..

Don't tell her anything. Keep it light. Make her compliments, flirt with her, but don't put pressure on her by talking about the email or a future relationship. And I really recommend you to kiss her if you have the chance. If she wants to be kissed by you she will give you an opportunity to get closer and if you don't act on this, you will look like a clueless or weak coward. She'll know that you want to kiss her, but you don't do it? - In her opinion that will reek of loser.

December 11, 2005

Aimee, you're right. I will go in with a postive attitude. I will kiss her if she gives me the chance. I goofed up royally earlier.

I am not ashamed of letting her know my feelings. Being with her made me feel alive...and I am not ashamed of that.

If she asks me about the letter, should I just go ahead and say that I meant every word and that I am not ashamed of letting her know?

But I believe that I was selfish by neglecting her feelings.

thanks aimee

mrB

December 11, 2005

The thing is this: even after rejecting me she continues to give me what appears to be mixed signals.

That's exactly what my girl is doing to me too... i cudn't ask her out right in the beginning because she was in a long-distance relationship. but she then broke up with her boyfriend AND also told me about it. i connected the dots and 2 weeks later asked her out. she refused and said she only appreciates me as a friend. yeah right... my a$$ !!!! and here is the funny thing. i accept her decision and walk away but she keeps coming after me... literally chases me... all in the name of friendship. whatever.... but i am not taking this as she is interested in me.... if she were then she wud have atleast given me the chance to date her... nope she didn't even give me that chance. why? b'cos i am her friend!

there was a time when i used to feel very bad whenever i read about a woman getting dumped after being used for sex... now i have changed... i care a rat's a$$ about those sorry stories. why? because i know that they will give only a**h***$ a chance and not decent guys. that species deserves every pound of sh*t that it gets from men that use them for their bodies and dump them. that's exactly how they need to be treated. try seeing them as a person and treating them with respect ... u will be categorized as a friend in no time.

so open ur eyes, quit pinning ur hopes on this woman, and move on. she is NOT sending u any signals.. go and date other women... and don't do the mistake of falling for a woman because of the person she is. if u do then she will call u as a friend. fall for her because her cleavage is good or she has a f*ckin good a$$. in short just see her as a piece of meat and then they will appreciate u and date u and u can have all the hot sex that u want.. women r nothing more than hot meat with a bunch of orifices that need to serve as receptacles for our rods! if u appreciate them as people with emotions and feelings they will push u to the friendzone. beware!

hooooo enuff said!

December 12, 2005

I went ahead and bought her a Christmas gift. I got her a travel journal, a fountain pen, and a cd (I have a copy and it has become one of my favorites).

I think a travel journal is enough. You're not in a relationship with her yet and buying too many gifts in my opinion will look like bribing her. CDs are too neutral and the typical present if you don't know what to give.

December 12, 2005

But I believe that I was selfish by neglecting her feelings.

You absolutely did nothing selfish and if you haven't realized it everybody is selfish once in a while. You friend is certainly not an exception, I can tell you without knowing her further that she definitely is not a saint and a Mother Theresa.

December 12, 2005

So Aimee,

Should I just leave the pen out?

Thanks

December 12, 2005

So Aimee,
Should I just leave the pen out?

Thanks

Only if the travel journal was not too expensive and the pen either. Both together make a nice present.

December 12, 2005

Aimee,

The total between the three items was about sixty dollars. (Remember the trip across the U.S.-She paid for my plane fare back home. I figure that this is the least I could do.)

December 12, 2005

Remember the trip across the U.S.-She paid for my plane fare back home. I figure that this is the least I could do.

You didn't say she paid for the ticket to get to her place. It means she appreciates you a lot, if there is more meaning behind it I don't know.

I'm not sure how much the ticket cost, but if she wanted to give it to you as a present I would not try to pay it back to her with another really expensive gift if it's not really your style and if you're not really wealthy. If your gift is slightly more expensive than what you would usually give to her it should be ok.

December 12, 2005

In order to encourage you a bit, let me say that the fundaments for a successful relationship are there. You have what is necessary to make a relationship between her and you work, she even let you know indirectly that you would fulfill her criteria, but you may have guessed it already it's not sufficient. If you want to have a relationship with her, you need to work on your self-esteem and that is something achievable.

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