Finances in a relationship?

[OatsAndHall]

I find it a bit strange that people are saying the OP's SO isn't "committed" because he's asking his gf (not fiancee, not wife..) to split financial obligations evenly. Money shouldn't be mixed into the equation before marriage as is so I believe that the guy is showing a high level of commitment by having this discussion with her. I care about my girlfriend deeply and I sincerely hope that her and I make it in the long run. With that being said, I would never talk about serious joint financial responsibilities with her.

[heartbroken56]

Hi all,

It’s me again - was reading everything. I didn’t realize people don’t discuss finances before marriage. I wouldn’t want to be engaged and then find out I viewed finances completely differently as a partner. I have had friends deal with this and for example 8 years later they break up with someone when they could have figured it years prior. As stipulated before, him and I have discussed getting married. It’s a very assumed fact hence why I has stated that I already know I would sign a prenup. Therefore, we are on track to get engaged.  Which is why I have been shocked at the gold digger comments, when a prenup realistically ‘protects’ The wealthier person  from that...
 

As for how we know each other’s finances, we both were honest about our savings and etc. That’s why I know ‘how much more’ than me he has and that’s related to his own wealth from working and investments. Also I’m not in a position where I need sugar daddies as some have posted, I have done a very good job of being financially stable and have never depended on any men in my life, nor would I ever want to be dependent of a man. I have no interest in knowing what his inheritance will be as it’s not my business, I would never ask a question like that. Therefore, I don’t have an inkling of what he’ll receive or not receive from his parents. Just from what I’ve seen - I can tell tell they are very comfortable and from what he’s told me.

Main point I was trying to make is that I was raised to think that when you get married, your previous assets before marriage are yours (Up to the person to share them if they choose)- however once you’re married, isn’t it supposed to become more of a partnership and shared assets? His earlier comments just seemed very much as though we would still be living very ‘split’ lives once married. As I have stated before, if I was the person with more money and we found a dream home and he couldn’t quite pay half, I would cover the difference. I’m offended at the fact that he wouldn’t do the same for me. I agree, he doesn’t have too. He doesn’t owe me anything. But where I’m from , when you’re married - marriage is meant to build a life with a person and not feel like ‘this is my money vs. this is your money’. Therefore, why even get married at that point if everything is financially separated. You might as well be roommates? 

Also, I live in the US, but I am originally from elsewhere. Therefore, yes, sometimes I think cultural differences make you approach marriage and finances differently. 
 

i also would like to highlight that naturally women give up more then men when kids come into the picture. Which is something we’ve both highlighted we would want after getting married. As a woman, you’re giving up income, retirement and etc. For a few years or even sometimes a long period of time. And so that’s where it feels kind of impossible to imagine ‘splitting’ everything down 50/50 In a marriage. Sure, you can do it. But it’s becomes very hard on the stay-at-home person to do this for a continuation of a relationship if no longer employed and etc. 

Maybe we are having a premature conversation To a few of you, however I am the type of person that would like to imagine a future with my SO and understand the details before just marrying someone and not truly understanding what expectations would be and etc. 

[heartbroken56]

Also after having seen different forum names maybe having this thread in the ‘dating’ forum is confusing people cause some people think we are casually dating when it’s been years, moving in together soon and in talks of an engagement.

[NomiMalone]

OP, it just comes down to you having to decide whether going forward you can accept his preference to go 50/50 with the asset purchase. It’s a personal decision and there’s no right or wrong. This is what dating’s about - to find out whether that person is right for you or not. Bear in mind though, his preference for not wanting to splash out on a pricier property doesn’t mean he doesn’t love you, it just means he has a different view of how he wants to spend his money, and it’s not likely to change even if he’s dating someone else. 

[CAPSLOCK BANDIT]

You pull your own weight but you want him to pay more?

You do understand what pulling your own weight means right?

 

[OatsAndHall]

My dad and stepmom have been married for over 30 years. He brings in about twice as much money as she does, while working and now while retired. They've never had a joint bank account, they split the bills evenly and they've had few arguments over money. He has his money and investments. she has hers and it's done and done. It's simply a practical way to head off fights over finances. My dad is more than generous; for example, they vacation out of state in the winter and he picks up most of the tab for that.

My best friend from high school and college makes three to four times as much money as his wife. They also have separate bank accounts; he pays two thirds of each bill, she pays one third. So, they have their money separated, they each pay a "share" (which means they can afford more) and they also haven't had many arguments over money. He does tend to pick up more than his share on occasion but that's his nature and what he's comfortable with. She wanted a newer vehicle that was just out of her price range so he paid the down payment.

What do those two stories have in common; they partner that makes more has the OPTION of being more generous. It's not asked of or expected of them.

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by OatsAndHall

[poppyfields]

33 minutes ago, OatsAndHall said:

What do those two stories have in common; they partner that makes more has the OPTION of being more generous. It's not asked of or expected of them.

 

OatsandHall, I believe OP just wrote she doesn't "expect" it either.  Different wording, she wrote "he doesn't owe me anything."

What I'm sensing is disappointment that their values w/r/t finances are so vastly different.

As OP said, if SHE had more money than he, and they found "their" dream home "together," but HE could not afford 50/50, she would cover the difference since she is the one with more. . 

They're married (or will be), they're a team, that's what you do, you share. 

I would think most couples would as well (I would), however he would rather live a downgraded lifestyle than contribute more than OP even though he has 15x more than she.

I can't relate to that type of mindset either, and to the OP, might even be a dealbreaker for me.

As I said, generosity and the ability to share are very important to me.  Do I expect it? No.  Do I desire those qualities in a partner, husband?  Yes.

I'm wondering though, you've been together two years?  Did you get any inkling within those two years that he was this tight with money?  

Anyway, I'm glad you had this discussion, you have some important decisions to make, good luck.  

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by poppyfields

[OatsAndHall]

3 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

OatsandHall, I believe OP just wrote she doesn't "expect" it either.  Different wording, she wrote "he doesn't owe me anything."

What I'm sensing is disappointment that their values w/r/t finances are so vastky different.

As OP said, if SHE had more money than he, and they found "their" dream home together, but HE could not afford 50/50, she would cover the difference since she is the one with more. . 

I would think most couples would as well (I would), however he would rather downgrade his lifestyle rather than contribute more money than OP.

I can't relate to that type of mindset either, and to the OP, might even be a dealbreaker for me.

As I said, generosity and the ability to share are very important to me.  Do I expect it? No.  Do I desire those qualities in a partner, husband?  Yes.

I'm wondering though, you've been together two years?  Did you get any inkling within those two years that he was this tight with money?  

Anyway, I'm glad you had this discussion, you have some important decisions to make, good luck.  

 

@poppyfields

 

I read the OP's post and she states that she doesn't expect it. However, she claims to be hurt and upset that her BF wouldn't opt to share finances when married. Splitting finances when married is becoming far more common in marriages these days, at least in the States. And, it's not as much about covering one's assets in a potential divorce as much as it's about heading off arguments over money.  Life is much easier when each person has their own money and investments and life moves on.

[poppyfields]

@OatsAndHallOf course she's hurt and upset upon discovering their values are so vastly different, I think that is a very natural human reaction.

She planned to marry this man, spend her life with him.  Now, upon learning their values don't match, she is forced to rethink marrying him, possibly ending their relationship.

Who wouldn't be upset by that?

And no disrespect, but what do other couples choosing to do with their finances have to do with her preference? 

She has the right to desire a partner/husband who has the ability to share (just as she would if roles were reversed), even if every other couple on the face of the earth doesn't.

Edited April 10, 2020 by poppyfields

[introverted1]

OP, thanks for your latest message.  I think it frames the issue more accurately and, at this point, I tend to agree with you for the most part. While I think your bf is right to expect a 50/50 split while you are living together, I also believe that once a couple is married, the nature of what 50/50 means can change.  For example, if the woman takes time off to have and raise children, this is a significant contribution, albeit not a directly financial one. And if you are indeed on the precipice of engagement, you should absolutely be talking about finances.  Have you had a deeper conversation with your bf?  Sounds like you should.

[OatsAndHall]

36 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

@OatsAndHallOf course she's hurt and upset upon discovering their values are so vastly different, I think that is a very natural human reaction.

She planned to marry this man, spend her life with him.  Now, upon learning their values don't match, she is forced to rethink marrying him, possibly ending their relationship.

Who wouldn't be upset by that?

And no disrespect, but what do other couples choosing to do with their finances have to do with her preference? 

She has the right to desire a partner/husband who has the ability to share (just as she would if roles were reversed), even if every other couple on the face of the earth doesn't.

Financial issues are at the heart of the majority of divorces in the United States at this point. I don't view this as "sharing values"; I view it as practicality when it comes to long term finances. If the OP takes a look at it from that perspective, it could help her move past this and continue the relationship. If she doesn't, then they probably do need to split up (which is something I rarely recommend on this site). There are many stories posted on here about couples fighting over money when there's a relatively simple fix; split finances, have a few assets together and absolutely NO shared liabilities (i.e. credit cards, car loans, etc..etc..). Those dynamics can change within a marriage as kids are born, etc..etc.. But, starting off with relatively split financial responsibilities solves many problems.

 

[d0nnivain]

8 hours ago, heartbroken56 said:

 him and I have discussed getting married. It’s a very assumed fact hence why I has stated that I already know I would sign a prenup. Therefore, we are on track to get engaged.  

* * * 

Main point I was trying to make is that I was raised to think that when you get married, your previous assets before marriage are yours (Up to the person to share them if they choose)- however once you’re married, isn’t it supposed to become more of a partnership and shared assets? His earlier comments just seemed very much as though we would still be living very ‘split’ lives once married. As I have stated before, if I was the person with more money and we found a dream home and he couldn’t quite pay half, I would cover the difference. I’m offended at the fact that he wouldn’t do the same for me. I agree, he doesn’t have too. He doesn’t owe me anything. But where I’m from , when you’re married - marriage is meant to build a life with a person and not feel like ‘this is my money vs. this is your money’. Therefore, why even get married at that point if everything is financially separated. You might as well be roommates? 

 

Keep talking about this stuff.  It is important.  People can evolve. 

When I met my husband he was a bad tipper & not very generous with money.  I recognized that to some extent his pattern developed because he never had much money.  I tried to lead by example early on & to his credit he stepped up.  He always viewed me as the frivolous one because I spent money on nice clothes, vacations & dining out.  He is still the better saver but he came to realize that my shopping is frugal.  We vacation in the off season.  I buy clothes on sale & at thrift stores.  I use groupons etc.  

We kept talking & still talk about financial differences / challenges.  We work through it.  Sure there are still points of disagreement but we listen to each other & collaborate. 

His views are different from yours, sure, but don't act rashly in response to this news.  You dated it for years.  He's still the same guy.  He was open enough to give you the disclosures you got.  I think you can work through this if you take baby steps & keep the lines of communication open.  If after you keep talking you realize that there is compatibility  & no compromise that will make you feel OK about this, well then that would be a good reason not to proceed but for now, let your rational rather then emotional mind guide you.  

[Calmandfocused]

Op I haven’t read the replies. However I think the answer to your dilemma is simple: 

You each contribute 50% (or whatever percentage is relevant)  of your EARNINGS to joint bills/ spenditure. This means that if he earns more than you he contributes more than you but he still has a bit more disposable than you based on the fact that he is the higher earner. It also means that if you take a career break to raise children it will mean that you contribute nothing as you’re earning nothing. This makes it fair all round in my opinion. 

[Ruby Slippers]

It would completely turn me off from getting serious with him and looking toward marriage. Most women would feel the same way. 

A marriage is a spiritual union, not a business partnership.

Personal finance guru Dave Ramsey has some great video clips on YouTube about merging finances in marriage, and why women don't and shouldn't consider penny-pinching men like this as husband and father material.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Ruby Slippers

[Woggle]

Marriage might be a spiritual union in the church but most other places it is a business partnership. When there is a bitter divorce and lawyers get involved it very much is a business arrangement. The only way for it not to be is to get the government and lawyers out of it which I wouldn't really be against.

[smackie9]

Marriage is a CONTRACT in these modern times. Why? because women have careers and have their own financial status...not like it was 150 years ago where the man had full responsibility financially and women had no status at all...couldn't vote, were raised to run a household, treated like chattel. I say be blessed as women we have these freedoms. Men have the freedom to stay home to raise the children as well and can receive benefits for maternity leave. Ladies we fought for this...equality!

You have to embrace it fully not half way.

Edited April 10, 2020 by smackie9

[Shining One]

1 hour ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Personal finance guru Dave Ramsey has some great video clips on YouTube about merging finances in marriage, and why women don't and shouldn't consider penny-pinching men like this as husband and father material.

I would question the wisdom of any finance guru who advises a partner to elevate a lower-earning partner's lifestyle beyond their means. It seems like a good way to get screwed over in case of divorce.

[poppyfields]

Screwed over in case of divorce? 

Marriage = business partnership in the event of divorce?

I am so disheartened by comments like that.  I mean, why get married at all if what you’re worried about is what happens should you divorce?  That’s no way to start what should be a beautiful life with your partner imo.

Just stay single, split everything 50/50 and when it ends, wish each other well and go separate ways.

Personally, I have no problem living with my boyfriend sans marriage.  He’s generous and shares, we both do!  Even though we’re not married, we’re committed and a team.

Should things end between us, we each take with us what we brought in.  But while we’re together, we’re living the life being generous with each other and sharing what we have with each other.

Perhaps that's not for everyone, but works really well for us that way, I highly recommend. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by poppyfields

[FMW]

22 minutes ago, poppyfields said:

I am so disheartened by comments like that.

I understand poppyfields, but I bet you aren't divorced.  Most people go into marriage thinking they have a strong partnership and can weather any storm together, that they aren't like "those" other people.  Once you experience the unraveling of a partnership, it's hard to have that same level of faith.  The financial consequences are very real.  

Not getting married, or not living together in places that ascribe legal financial "rights" when you do, seems like the best option to me.  But for those who do want marriage, they just have to partner with someone who shares their views in this area.  

[OatsAndHall]

14 hours ago, poppyfields said:

Screwed over in case of divorce? 

Marriage = business partnership in the event of divorce?

I am so disheartened by comments like that.  I mean, why get married at all if what you’re worried about is what happens should you divorce?  That’s no way to start what should be a beautiful life with your partner imo.

Just stay single, split everything 50/50 and when it ends, wish each other well and go separate ways.

Personally, I have no problem living with my boyfriend sans marriage.  He’s generous and shares, we both do!  Even though we’re not married, we’re committed and a team.

Should things end between us, we each take with us what we brought in.  But while we’re together, we’re living the life being generous with each other and sharing what we have with each other.

Perhaps that's not for everyone, but works really well for us that way, I highly recommend. 

 

People's outlook on finances can change over the course of a relationship; I've experienced it first hand. My ex-wife was far more frugal and financially responsible than I was when we first met. She had to be; she was a single mother raising three kids. I (falsely) assumed that she would carry those lessons of frugality into our relationship and it was one of the reasons I married her. We got joint bank accounts and meshed our finances together. I still wouldn't assume any shared liabilities with her but we were thoroughly financially intertwined.

Long story short, she did a 180 once we got on our feet and had extra money. Bare in mind that we were still on shaky ground; we had a fair amount of debt and medical bills hit us every month because of her MS. But, that didn't stop her from wanting to spend, spend, spend. She wanted to finance brand new vehicles, buy a motor cycle, buy a a boat (and a truck to tow it), finance a home gym set up, etc..etc.. And all of these things stirred up massive fights where I was accused of being "cheap" and "stingy".  Her idea of "being able to afford" something was having enough money to go into more debt and living paycheck to paycheck.

The only compromise we could come to was having enough money in savings to cover two months worth of bills. We needed to get out of debt and start throwing a ton of money into savings and investments in case the MS kept her from working.  Getting separate bank accounts was out of the question and she'd be furious when I'd throw my coaching stipends and other extra money I'd earned at my credit card. And, she still didn't learn or listen to me when she managed to zero out our checking account on three different occasions.

At the end of the day, I didn't get hit in our divorce; she did. I had paid off the majority of the debt in my name on my own while she had managed to rack up $15k in credit cards. I had no idea she was putting that much on credit cards and she was opening them with her side business and paying the minimums on them from that account (which was in her name only).  When I saw that, I knew why she refused to use the money from her side business to finance the stuff she asked me to finance with her.

 

[Woggle]

After you have gone through a bitter divorce you take that into account. If my first wife wasn't in prison she would probably still be hounding me about alimony. I fully trust my wife right now on every level but when we first married I made sure these issues were worked out.

[preraph]

On 4/11/2020 at 8:33 AM, OatsAndHall said:

 

 

Long story short, she did a 180 once we got on our feet and had extra money. Bare in mind that we were still on shaky ground; we had a fair amount of debt and medical bills hit us every month because of her MS. But, that didn't stop her from wanting to spend, spend, spend. She wanted to finance brand new vehicles, buy a motor cycle, buy a a boat (and a truck to tow it), finance a home gym set up, etc..etc.. And all of these things stirred up massive fights where I was accused of being "cheap" and "stingy".  Her idea of "being able to afford" something was having enough money to go into more debt and living paycheck to paycheck.

And the reality is that unfortunately, a lot of people, and probably especially women, sometimes look upon marriage as having twice as much money and get exactly in that mind set.  Some men, too.

 

An old client of mine got married and she made good money, better than him, and he just went and bought everything, boat, new car, motorcycle.  She said he was doing meth and she knew what when they married, so....but anyway, he ruined their finances.  She divorced but wouldn't surprise me if they didn't get back together.  

[OatsAndHall]

On 4/12/2020 at 12:24 PM, preraph said:

And the reality is that unfortunately, a lot of people, and probably especially women, sometimes look upon marriage as having twice as much money and get exactly in that mind set.  Some men, too.

 

An old client of mine got married and she made good money, better than him, and he just went and bought everything, boat, new car, motorcycle.  She said he was doing meth and she knew what when they married, so....but anyway, he ruined their finances.  She divorced but wouldn't surprise me if they didn't get back together.  

 

Ageed. Early on in the marriage, we were partners when it came to finances. We discussed everything and had some disagreements but it was sorted out in the end. There really wasn't anything to argue about as we didn't have any money.  When money stopped being as tight, things went south and it stopped being a partnership. Her perspective on finances changed completely; she went from being financially responsible to exceptionally irresponsible quickly. In the end, we had so many fights over money that anything relating to the topic just made me angry and I'd walk away.

I doubt that I will remarry but, if I do, it will be on the understanding that we split finances. No joint bank accounts or liabilities and few assets together. If my SO isn't willing to do so, then we either call it a day or we don't marry.

[preraph]

Yep, that kind of things happens all the time, O&H.  A close friend of mine who has only had a well paying job now about 2 years was feeling so rich she bought two new suv's in one year because she got in a fender bender on the first one and so instead of having it fixed, she traded it in and lord knows how high the payments are now.  I used to work at a dealership, so I know it's got to be unbelievably high, more than she should afford. 

 

And then she was wanting to buy her addict half-sister a house and asking relatives to go in with her, $5,000 each.  None of them were going for it.  This half-sister is a woman who has had several heroin babies and my friend adopted one of them.  She's supposed to be clean now, but there's on evidence of that.  So yeah, set her up in a house and make it easy for her to just sit around and do nothing but get high and see what happens.  I told my friend this irresponsible mess of a woman needs to be working two jobs to keep her out of trouble and get her some self-esteem and earn her own way.  Lord.  And my friend should know better.  She's been in AA for 30 some years and should know not to enable like that.  It worries me.  She's the nicest person, but she's too tolerant and I have to say she's not got a good idea about finances at all.  Glad she's making $$, though.  But she may well be one of those who was better off broke.  Can't imagine what her husband thinks about all this.  I have always encouraged her to keep some money separate, and she does.  Just hope she doesn't spend it all on something crazy.  

[Allupinnit]

My H and I make the same amount (mostly) so we've had no problem mingling our finances toward our mutual lifelong goals.  

If heaven forbid we were to split (we don't have kids together) it would probably be 50/50, just like it is now.  Together we are much stronger, and that includes financially as well.  

I'm better with finances though, so I handle that "chore", but we do sit down and go over where our money is going (x% savings, x% investment, x% living expenses...). We have a joint account for expenses and each of us still have our own checking and we don't check up on each other as long as we've met those savings and investment goals.

Having a spouse who goes behind your back and racks up debt or spends frivolously is akin to financial infidelity and I can see why it's one of the main reasons people divorce.  There's no way I would tolerate that.