Why don't men try to win your heart first?

[mortensorchid]

This is a true mystery to me as well as many others out there.  I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that women have become the men in many cases.  After all the "I am woman, hear me roar" from the 70s and 80s, what happened to us?  Look at the state of a lot of women out there who got educations, went for the brass ring, achieved to be all they could be - In the 30 years I have been working, more than half of the women I have met on the job (married, divorced, in relationships, living with someone, etc.) are the breadwinners of their households or supported their men.  Men, on the other hand, had to take a backseat to it and seemed to have allowed this.  They sit at home with their computers, video games, toys, etc., and I guess they are fine with this.  I've seen women taken advantage of financially because they cannot say no or want to be liked so badly.  Some men expect that women are going to support them or chase them instead, or some of them want others to take care of them and don't know how to be aggressive.  It's a mess out there, truly it is. 

[Ruby Slippers]

2 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said:

I cant speak for all(or any for that matter) women out there, but I know a LOT of women that complain about how lax their guys are about sex...Some can take it or leave it...Some just leave it...The absolute LAST thing most women want is some limp dicked. low drive guy that after 4 months of dating would rather watch the news and eat a box of donuts in front of the TV than play with you in the bedroom...

At the end of the day, try not to get twisted up over it....It can wind up being the best thing that happened to you, if you find the right guy AND he's very sexually driven...That's the type of guy most women(usually) want..

This is exactly why I decided to give it a second chance with my guy, and I'm very glad I did. I wanted a sexual, masculine, high drive man, and he showed me right away he's definitely that. I also got the strong impression he's loyal and looking for that one special woman, not the type to get around. 

I'd be very unsatisfied with a man who lacked high desire and wasn't hot for me all that much. In our time together we haven't missed a day, and it's often more than once a day and smoking ass hot, keeps getting better. 

So yeah, I totally feel you on this.

[SummerDreams]

OP dont let some men who it's in their interest to keep the status quo (= women having sex on the first date) bring you down and make you feel bad. Morals are something that we shouldn't lose because the society maybe pushes us to do. It's convenient for men that women give them sex easily so they will make YOU being the weirdo who values herself more. They will say that a man making a sexual move towards you is a good thing because it will mean he has a high sex drive and thus you will have a great sexual life if you choose him and so on. I call this BS.l; there are many many men who are respectful and want to know the heart of a woman who prove to be amazing lovers with high sex drive. Men who show their sexual desires on the first date are just that: shallow people who don't have anything else to offer emotionally and spiritually and their only drive is sex. Don't let them guilt you into thinking you are the weirdo please.

[Blind-Sided]

9 hours ago, RecentChange said:

Uff, sorry if it's off topic, but that's really sad.

So your kid knows that her own mother, the person who makes up 50% of her DNA isn't someone deserving of respect? ......

You are 100% right... it is sad.  And no, people don't automatically deserve respect, even if it was the person who gave you life.

9 hours ago, RecentChange said:

........

All the more reason both men and woman should be so choosey, and very very careful about who they impregnate, or allow to impregnate them. 

.......

So, to keep everything on topic.  My exW was a person who I truly had to "Win her heart".  Going back now... 21~22 years ago... we were in college.  She was a good, wholesome girl.  I had a bit of a reputation as I was a campus DJ.  I had a radio show, tv show, and played live at the school events.  I was also a musician, and played solo, and with my band on campus. My ex would come into the place where me an my buddies would hang out (game/pool room) on campus, and watch us shoot pool. She was pretty, and she was actually there looking at one of my buddies.  (but think he turned out gay) After a while... I started talking to her, and getting to know her.  A school event (formal dance) was coming up, and I had a few girls who wanted me to go, but I was waiting for her to ask me. As things got close... another friend of mine asked her (my ex) to the dance, so I went with another girl. After getting to the event, my future ex was upset with me for not asking her, and the girl I was with was annoying... so another friend and I left, and walked over to a neighboring college, and crashed some parties there. (That was a great night)  As an aside... the girl I was with got mad that I came back to the hotel room at 2 am, and told me to sleep on the floor.  I then reminded her I paid for the room.

Anyway... I guess the jealousy thing worked, because a week after that dance... we were together officially. She did ask if I slept with the girl I went to the dance with, and I told her "No, because I really wanted to be there with her." (the future ex)  From there... we dated for well over a month before being physical, as I found out she really never had sex before. (just some fooling around)  

So, before assuming I wasn't carful, she was sweet, innocent, and graduated #1 in her class.  For 20 years, she put everyone before her needs. She was a wonderful mother and wife.  BUT... there was a family history of mental issues... and hers just came out of nowhere, and with pure anger.  (that's why I'm Blind-Sided)  But when someone goes to the local abuse center to get free help (she was never touched) tries to get your father thrown out of his house because of abuse... tries to destroy you father's reputation with the local friends telling lies... threatens to send the sheriff out if you wont' come visit... takes you to court trying to accuse you of contempt... refuses to go to counseling with you to work on your relationship... and then rejects time with you (even a few quick calls) to spend time with the new BF (who was around WAY before the divorce was filed)..........  Yes... the child has a right to not respect the mother.  That respect has to be earned again... and only when she decides to get some help.    (and yes... this is very sad)

[Els]

On 3/4/2020 at 5:56 AM, Hopeful30 said:

Do I expect too much for a man to court me and woo me prior to making a sexual move? Has this tradition of respect and genuine 'chase and conquer her heart' died out completely?

Just like women, men are all individuals, and different men have different preferences. I don't think there's anything wrong with people having sex on the first date if that's what both of them wants - and yes, there are women who want that too. IMO viewing women who have sex early as "easy" is pretty archaic, because it presumes that sex is a transaction that women "give" to men.

That being said, of course it's totally fine for you to stand up for what you want! If you want sex to be within an established relationship, then do that. Men who ditch you because of it are simply not compatible with you - that's not a bad thing, it's actually a pretty convenient filter that helps you weed out men whom you're incompatible with.

My husband and I both did not want to have sex outside of an established relationship, and we did not. I'm sure you'll find a compatible man who feels the same way as you do.

[SummerDreams]

7 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

IMO viewing women who have sex early as "easy" is pretty archaic, because it presumes that sex is a transaction that women "give" to men.

It doesn't matter if it's archaic, men see women who have sex early as easy and this is not something that will change soon. Do I find it fair? No. But this is the way things are.

[chillii]

Same ol same ol , everytime this subject comes up , the horror , cracks me up. But anyway , as a guy , no it's still not gonna guarantee anything but holding of def helps in a lot of cases sort out  many men that aren't seeing her for anything much more . Everyday there's new posts here from women wondering where his gone now after she jumped into bed with him first or second time, The rest of the angles will only start more crap l couldn't be bothered with so l'll skip those.

Edited March 5, 2020 by chillii

[SumGuy]

3 hours ago, Blind-Sided said:

 And no, people don't automatically deserve respect, even if it was the person who gave you life.

I disagree.  Everyone deserves initial respect.  Respect is something that you lose.  Trust is something that you earn.

[Blind-Sided]

32 minutes ago, SumGuy said:

I disagree.  Everyone deserves initial respect.  Respect is something that you lose.  Trust is something that you earn.

Sure... totally agree.  She respected her mother until the spring of 2019... then it went down hill.   Honestly... my 13yo was more "bonded" with her mother than she was with me.  (my 8yo was always my buddy)  And even up until the day my ex moved out... I would have never guessed in a million years she would have wanted to stay with me. I honestly figured she would stay with mom, and I would have to work to show her the truth. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Blind-Sided

[Silver_star]

It is archaic, which means times have changed and it annoys me that people continue to push this Madmen 1950's narrative to keep oppressing women to behave a certain way because they swear "its just the way things are".  

I have met men who have continued pursuing me and "gasp" even taken me seriously and respected me as a partner after I had sex on the 2nd or 3rd date because I was feeling it...I had long term relationships afterwards with 2 of them...so this negative connotation with "easy women" is just BS story created so we can continue to treat women's bodies as a trophies, as if sex is the reward for good behavior, because lets be honest what does it take to "Win your heart"? (ie, dating for 3 months? 17 steak dinners? 20 conversation...there is no number of days it takes to feel a strong connection with someone, connection happens when it happens).

Sex should not be treated as a reward, and your body is not the prize. You are a person, he is a person and you let the connection happen or not on your terms. That is a morally sound decision.

If you don't want to have sex "early' then don't, and tell the guy you are with that you prefer to wait before sex, as posters above had said it will weed or filter out the men that are there to build a connection with you based on conversations only, and that is fine for you.

Some people prefer to also experience some physical connection early on, and that doesn't mean the relationship cannot grow from that point on, or that you are "easy woman" and have bad morals. As a woman I get to choose whom I sleep with and when, not society or some 90 day rule that you find on the internet that tells me "this will make him fall in love with you". If a guy I am having feelings for wants to move on because he "got what he wanted" then I guess I chose the wrong guy, but when I find a connection I am not waiting some 3 extra dates because I won't be a lady if I dont or I am afraid he will think I am "easy". 

Rant done.

3 hours ago, SummerDreams said:

It doesn't matter if it's archaic, men see women who have sex early as easy and this is not something that will change soon. Do I find it fair? No. But this is the way things are.

 

[Els]

4 hours ago, SummerDreams said:

It doesn't matter if it's archaic, men see women who have sex early as easy and this is not something that will change soon. Do I find it fair? No. But this is the way things are.

Well, if our predecessors had been happy with "the way things are", women would still not have the right to vote, own property, or graduate from university. Change doesn't just happen, we have to make it happen, and that doesn't happen if we just accept that "this is the way things are".

Now, I'm not saying people should have sex when they're not ready. Absolutely, do NOT do that, don't have sex unless you want to, it doesn't matter what the other person tries to do or say. But let's not propagate archaic and sexist beliefs about "easy women" either.

 

[SummerDreams]

1 hour ago, Silver_star said:

It is archaic, which means times have changed and it annoys me that people continue to push this Madmen 1950's narrative to keep oppressing women to behave a certain way because they swear "its just the way things are". 

 

32 minutes ago, Elswyth said:

Well, if our predecessors had been happy with "the way things are", women would still not have the right to vote, own property, or graduate from university. Change doesn't just happen, we have to make it happen, and that doesn't happen if we just accept that "this is the way things are".

I never said things should not change because that's how they are. I just stated that things are that way. Nowhere did I suggest that all women should follow this rule if they don't want to. It's like stating that women are expected to have make up on and to have made their hair before they leave the house but this doesn't mean that a woman is not allowed to not do these things in order to go out. But everything we do has consequences right? Some men will consider a woman who has sex on the first date easy. Some people will comment a woman who leaves the house without make up and hair done in a bad way. These are society rules. I'm not suggesting they are right or wrong OR that they should be followed no matter what.

I think we are decades away from men not calling women who have sex early easy, no matter how much progress it has been made.

Also most men, if you ask them, will say that NO, what the hell, they have no problem with a woman having sex on the first date and that they won't think any less of her, but lets be totally honest. At least half of them are lying because, as I said earlier, it's in their best interest that women keep having sex on the first date. Would they be crazy to say "yeah we consider you easy and we never call you again cause of that"?

 

[Gr8fuln2020]

5 hours ago, SummerDreams said:

It doesn't matter if it's archaic, men see women who have sex early as easy and this is not something that will change soon. Do I find it fair? No. But this is the way things are.

I NEVER view women as 'easy' when they have sex. NEVER. In fact, for me, I find intimacy early on as something entirely natural and organic. I don't ever have sex with someone who isn't equally responsive or comfortable with intimacy. I have never met anyone who said, 'Darn, you must think I'm easy.' Nope. No need for words, no need to celebrate, no need to emphasize the event....all organic, natural, and desired.

[Hopeful30]

19 hours ago, preraph said:

You need to meet someone organically in some situation where you get to know them not even dating.  Like I met and got to know lots of guys when I worked retail, just standing around talking or taking lunch together.  Men are more focused on sex than anything, most of them, so it would be worth it to get in a situation you could just get to know them better because some guys will fall for some woman they are around repeatedly, even if she's not their sexual ideal.  Now, that doesn't mean it always works out, of course.

 

And the other thing to look for are guys who have something that's even more important to them than their penises, a man who has a creative passion or is real wrapped up in his work and loves it.  I ran with the music crowd, and that's how the serious musicians were.  It was music first, then women, and that was perfect for me, because I was music first as well.  But of course it helps if you can bond with them over that passion.  So maybe a semi-pro sports guy or musician or artist or writer, someone with something more on the brain than just leading with sex.  

I considered online dating because I found it challenging to find a man organically. Typically it's because on my available time (evening and weekends) the common 'meeting grounds' are heavily rooted in drinking, loud music and crowded social environments (things I don't quite enjoy). I've met plenty of wonderful people are certain events, or places like bookstores, or even in the elevator of my building, however in these instances, I later learned the men already had girlfriends. I felt the online option had more 'filters' and decided to try my chances there. 

I agree, though, that meeting people organically makes more sense. Feeling the presence of someone tells you everything you need to know.

 

19 hours ago, Juha said:

If I was the man I would assume you had low interest with waiting 17 hours to respond to a simple text.  Bad texter or not..

 

You need to step up your game if you are serious about finding a good man to date.  With that type of behavior anyone interested would move on from you

interested or not.  Only guys who are desperate, have no options, or no self respect would put themselves through chasing someone who is not really interested by her behavior.

 

Men have little way of knowing how interested a woman is in them except by the woman's actions.  17 hours for a response in by text would say your are not really someone I am interested in but here is a crumb to keep you on the line if I change my mind...

 

 

You are limiting yourself. What is she's on a flight? Got her period and feels terrible? If she fell ill? Or has a family emergency? Putting a time limit on a text is a very narrow approach to evaluating a person's true character.

 

14 hours ago, thefooloftheyear said:

Forgive me for saying this and I mean no disrespect, but you are seemingly WAYY too uptight over this issue....

So a guy makes a move on you before you are "ready"....So what??!!!    It doesn't necessarily mean he's missing the BASICS(whatever that is)...You need to just be able to deal with it and convey the fact  that its not time...That's all...It doesn't have to be as full of drama and intrigue as you are making it out to be..If he likes you it wont really bother him...Take it in stride....And be happy that he is that desirous of you in a romantic/sexual way.......In no way should you feel "disrespected"...If you like the guy(assuming he's cleared the hurdles to get to the point of a date). and he makes a move on you before you think you are ready, use it instead as an ego boost that your sexual attractiveness is working....

I cant speak for all(or any for that matter) women out there, but I know a LOT of women that complain about how lax their guys are about sex...Some can take it or leave it...Some just leave it...The absolute LAST thing most women want is some limp dicked. low drive guy that after 4 months of dating would rather watch the news and eat a box of donuts in front of the TV than play with you in the bedroom...

Its not about old school vs new...Ive been around a while and nothing really has changed in what most guys want...And sure...The possibility of getting played by a creep just looking to get laid exists no matter what you do...That's just the cost of doing business as they say....And if you aren't all that sexual or have some hangup, that's fine, but then its another dynamic that is thrown into the mix...

At the end of the day, try not to get twisted up over it....It can wind up being the best thing that happened to you, if you find the right guy AND he's very sexually driven...That's the type of guy most women(usually) want...

TFY

Everyone has a right to feel how they feel. Sex is intimate for some, casual for others. There is nothing wrong with the challenges of adjusting to a society that doesn't make it easy to find a compatible equal. Also, be careful not to generalize 'all women want men like this'. You are limiting yourself to the diverse spectrum of unique souls in this world by thinking from this perspective.

 

12 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

This is exactly why I decided to give it a second chance with my guy, and I'm very glad I did. I wanted a sexual, masculine, high drive man, and he showed me right away he's definitely that. I also got the strong impression he's loyal and looking for that one special woman, not the type to get around. 

I'd be very unsatisfied with a man who lacked high desire and wasn't hot for me all that much. In our time together we haven't missed a day, and it's often more than once a day and smoking ass hot, keeps getting better. 

So yeah, I totally feel you on this.

I agree. You always have to honour your feelings. 

 

5 hours ago, Elswyth said:

Just like women, men are all individuals, and different men have different preferences. I don't think there's anything wrong with people having sex on the first date if that's what both of them wants - and yes, there are women who want that too. IMO viewing women who have sex early as "easy" is pretty archaic, because it presumes that sex is a transaction that women "give" to men.

That being said, of course it's totally fine for you to stand up for what you want! If you want sex to be within an established relationship, then do that. Men who ditch you because of it are simply not compatible with you - that's not a bad thing, it's actually a pretty convenient filter that helps you weed out men whom you're incompatible with.

My husband and I both did not want to have sex outside of an established relationship, and we did not. I'm sure you'll find a compatible man who feels the same way as you do.

Thank you for this  I'm trying not to let my faith falter, and hope that one day (soon) I will meet my equal.

[carhill]

The 'easy women' stuff is more male locker room talk not meant for mixed company. Even my long married friends who are great grandfathers still talk about easy women, past sexual conquests and describe women by tits and ass. That's why they're great grandfathers. They know how to be reproductively successful and socialize children and grandchildren similarly. It works. OTOH, some still chide me as making someone a good wife someday because I don't kiss and tell and break women down into body parts. Old habits die hard and while I figured out how to be successful with women, that part never left. Still a bore at the locker room talk thing.

[Ruby Slippers]

There are definitely men who judge women who have sex early as easy as low value. While to a degree I get their point of view, ultimately they're hypocrites, as it takes two to tango.

In my opinion, the best men don't do this. They understand that if they expect women in general not to make them wait forever, they're unlikely to find women with a low partner count anymore.

Also, I think relationships work best when the man and woman have a similar partner count. When one has had a dozen partners and the other 100+, that creates issues. My boyfriend and I have about the same number of partners in our history (low compared to the modern norm), because we have a similar view on sex and what it means.

[thefooloftheyear]

10 minutes ago, Hopeful30 said:

 

 

Everyone has a right to feel how they feel. Sex is intimate for some, casual for others. There is nothing wrong with the challenges of adjusting to a society that doesn't make it easy to find a compatible equal. Also, be careful not to generalize 'all women want men like this'. You are limiting yourself to the diverse spectrum of unique souls in this world by thinking from this perspective.

 

There is nothing to be "careful" about....Nowhere did I say ALL of anything...I am sure there are couples out there that would report they are happy without any sex...Its just not the norm...

Here's to "hoping:" you find what you want...

TFY
 

[NuevoYorko]

1 minute ago, Ruby Slippers said:

There are definitely men who judge women who have sex early as easy as low value. While to a degree I get their point of view, ultimately they're hypocrites, as it takes two to tango.

In my opinion, the best men don't do this. They understand that if they expect women in general not to make them wait forever, they're unlikely to find women with a low partner count anymore.

Also, I think relationships work best when the man and woman have a similar partner count. When one has had a dozen partners and the other 100+, that creates issues. My boyfriend and I have about the same number of partners in our history (low compared to the modern norm), because we have a similar view on sex and what it means.

I agree that men who judge women who have sex early are hypocrites, unless they believe in waiting, themselves.  My last two serious relationships were launched with "early sex."

"Partner count" though?  Who gives a s***.  I mean once you're out of your early 20's do people even ask for those stats?  I hope not.

[Hopeful30]

3 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

I agree that men who judge women who have sex early are hypocrites, unless they believe in waiting, themselves.  My last two serious relationships were launched with "early sex."

"Partner count" though?  Who gives a s***.  I mean once you're out of your early 20's do people even ask for those stats?  I hope not.

This speaks more to the mentality of sexual intimacy, not so much the quantity of it.

[carhill]

12 minutes ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Also, I think relationships work best when the man and woman have a similar partner count. When one has had a dozen partners and the other 100+, that creates issues. My boyfriend and I have about the same number of partners in our history (low compared to the modern norm), because we have a similar view on sex and what it means.

Yup, that was an issue in our M, exW had a magnitude more partners and did view sex a bit differently. However, I never considered her 'easy', rather she enjoyed having sex with men and did so with many, and did without games during our M. I almost moved too slow for her, or so she told me early on after a dinner at her place where I slept on the sofa with her cat, ironically the cat I ended up with in our D.

[Shining One]

49 minutes ago, NuevoYorko said:

I mean once you're out of your early 20's do people even ask for those stats?  I hope not.

I've been asked by several woman aged 30 and above. A few even asked during initial conversations before the first date.

[Gr8fuln2020]

14 minutes ago, Shining One said:

I've been asked by several woman aged 30 and above. A few even asked during initial conversations before the first date.

Asked how many partners you've had?

[Ruby Slippers]

1 hour ago, NuevoYorko said:

"Partner count" though?  Who gives a s***.  I mean once you're out of your early 20's do people even ask for those stats?  I hope not.

I'm repulsed by men who will put it in anything and wouldn't get involved with this kind of person.

[Hopeful30]

1 hour ago, Ruby Slippers said:

I'm repulsed by men who will put it in anything and wouldn't get involved with this kind of person.

Love your signature quote. I'm a huge Esther Hicks fan myself  Been wondering what I need to polish to attract this equal of mine!

[Miss Spider]

I like when men take it slow during the “friends” (strong emphasis on the quotes) stage. Where you’re just getting to know each other. But once it’s been established we are “dating” I like them to make a move pretty quickly. Like kiss within the first 2 dates or I am out