Why don't men try to win your heart first?

[thefooloftheyear]

15 minutes ago, SummerDreams said:

But why should women be the ones to always stop things from happening? I mean, why does the default have to be that men will attempt something sexual and that women should be the ones that with their body language will stop it? Why can't men be respectful and wait from women to show them they are ready to move forward?

Show them how??  Wait how long?  What's the protocol??

And IME, women often give men mixed messages....

Additionally, men that wait around are often seen as jackasses....I see more posts from women on this site complaining about guys not making moves on them...This type of thing has never really been too much of an issue in my own life...but I can see how guys can feel hamstrung by a lot of this...

TFY

[thefooloftheyear]

1 hour ago, Ruby Slippers said:

 

Males of all species go to great lengths to secure mating partners. A few dinners is chump change in comparison to what males of some species do.

 

LOL...The animals I breed the male approaches the female bites her very hard behind the neck and in no time he's up in her shyt…..

TFY

[nospam99]

@ruby. ''Women risk pregnancy, STD infection, emotional impact, and more. Men risk next to nothing.''

Men risk child support, STD infection, emotional impact, accusations of assault, and retaliation from boyfriends and male relatives. Touche

[Miss Spider]

11 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said:

LOL...The animals I breed the male approaches the female bites her very hard behind the neck and in no time he's up in her shyt…..

TFY

Had a guy do that once..  alpha af. 
 

Seriously though,  all this conversation does is secure the point people have different beliefs are courtship and just need to date people who believe the same or similar. I understand OP probably made this thread out of a frustrating experience, but there are plenty of guys who take their time to escalate physically sexually

[mark clemson]

1 hour ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Women risk pregnancy, STD infection, emotional impact, and more. Men risk next to nothing

Not so much reacting to the rest of your post, but... Men don't risk STIs and emotional impact?  I think many do.

Pregnancy not so much, but the risk of paying child support for 18 years is not insignificant either. Less than pregnancy sure, but...

I think many guys are somewhat programmed (genetically and in some cases socially) to worry less when the prospect of sex is on the table. I believe this has been actually detected in studies of brain function. However in realitythere are significant risks for them as well. Less than for women certainly, but real.

[SummerDreams]

I think the key word here is communication. Yes it's ok to talk about these things on the first date with someone, if you don't talk about your ideas and your personal lifestyles, what else are you going to talk about? It's very easy to recognise a man who is serious about you; he asks questions about you, about your interests, he listens carefully, he answers your questions etc. If the conversation is light and superficial, then he is there for just one thing. Simple as that.

[carhill]

27 minutes ago, thefooloftheyear said:

Additionally, men that wait around are often seen as jackasses.

Yup! And weak. And, my generation, not too politically correct.... 'What are you , a fag?' Reality.

I get the OP, I really do. Tried that for over a decade. Wasted a big chunk of life. Valuable young life. The guys talking about pussy and chasing pussy (their words, not mine), were the ones getting pussy, getting married and having those two legged mini-me's. That is what the women of that time and place responded to. Other times and places, who knows. Didn't live then or there. Had to accept reality and the free will of women.

[mark clemson]

Yeah the reality is different women can have very different hopes and expectations when it comes to a "wooer".

"If he has to ask my permission before kissing me, he shouldn't bother" is something I've heard before too. Very different from OP and from some large percent of women who want to at least to give tacit permission via body language first.

It's luck of the draw to a certain extent for both sexes, so one just had to realize that and play the game (whichever version of the game it is) as best as one can.

[simpycurious]

1 hour ago, SummerDreams said:

But why should women be the ones to always stop things from happening? I mean, why does the default have to be that men will attempt something sexual and that women should be the ones that with their body language will stop it? Why can't men be respectful and wait from women to show them they are ready to move forward?

You miss the point Summer.  A woman SHOULD NOT have to demand respect.  She should be treated with both dignity and respect because it’s the right thing to do.

[basil67]

That's a stretch @simplycurious   Women can behave in ways which certainly aren't deserving of respect.  For instance, using men for free meals under the guise of looking for a relationship or are flaky or lie......   Starting out with respect is one thing, but retaining respect is another thing altogether. 

 

[contel3]

3 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Yes.

The simple fact is that if women raised the bar for what they require from a man before having sex with him, men would do what it takes to clear it.

I don't think its fair to blame women. There's a whole business dedicated to easy access to sex and it hasn't greatly influenced the dating world. 

I think part of the problem is that we live in a society where men are told they are pussies if they don't score immediately. If a woman spends several weeks getting to know someone it increases her perceived value - a guy will be told he has been wasting his time. 

 

[basil67]

4 hours ago, SummerDreams said:

[men]used to know decades and centuries ago that they had to prove themselves first for the woman to choose them.

With all due respect, I think you've been reading too many romance novels.   Historically, in western nations, women had to marry a man who would support them.  And men married a woman who would care for him.  It's wasn't so much choice as survival.    

Do your family history and find all the women and men who were widowed and very quickly married again.  

[Hopeful30]

22 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

I'd come right out and talk about it before the first date or on the first date. 

I think men generally do very well with direct communication, not so well with innuendo and hints.

I agree. In my experience with sex, when you tell a man what you like, want and prefer, they just go by that instruction manual and it's more satisfying than if they have to guess. Although, I did have one ex boyfriend who asked me not to tell him anything, because he said he wanted to explore and discover me for himself  needless to say, that was my best relationship to-date.

 

22 hours ago, d0nnivain said:

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Ruby Slippers you know I respect you but there is just no way in the world a conversation like this can happen.  the words will just be too awkward & forced.  Nobody will date her if she tries this.  Instead she needs to communicate her entitlement to respect through the dignified way she comports herself on the date.  

This is where my frustration comes in. Whenever a man makes a sexual advance very early, I feel disrespected, even though deep down I know it's not necessarily the man's fault (they do what they think is right). It feels like dating is an activity that reminds me that my womanhood is still operating by old-school standards in a new age world. I feel out of place, and it gets to me sometimes. I wonder "I am a woman worthy of love and respect. Where is my equal to recognize this?"

 

22 hours ago, simpycurious said:

I agree Hope that's NONSENSE.  Being won over, being romanced, whatever you want to call it is NOT A BAD THING.

I could make a case that it builds the anticipation and electricity in a budding relationship.  In the end, you need to do

what's best for yourself  and what makes you content (this is for Hope).  And you don't have to apologize for what you

believe in.  

Thank you for this 

 

21 hours ago, OatsAndHall said:

The easiest way is to only agree to dates in public places for awhile. No "Netflix n' chill" sessions, no invites to each others' places for dinner or a nightcap, etc..etc.. Go out, have fun dates in public and see where things go. Three to four dates of this will keep things tame and weed out those guys that are looking to get laid. You can still have physical contact (kissing, holding hands, etc..etc..) but the prospect of anything beyond that is shot down by the environment.  If you're comfortable meeting in a non-public place, then you can lay out your boundaries; "I'd love to come over for dinner but please don't expect to be making me breakfast the next morning."

And, yes, I will agree with what has been posted about the inconsistencies. Sex has ceased to be something that happened organically and turned into something that generally needs to be discussed. I've had my fair share of women invite me over to their places for movies, dinner, (etc..). I never expected to have sex but some women were quite gung-ho about it while others would get hot n' heavy and then slam on the brakes. It never frustrated me as I tend to move slowly in respect to physical intimacy but it could certainly make for some uncomfortable situations.

 

People go on dates in non-public places? What?! That's so scary!! I would never ever meet a man in my home or his!! That's like putting yourself in the mouth of the lion!

 

8 hours ago, schlumpy said:

"Why don't men try to win your heart first?"

Because the heart is hidden and not easily revealed.

How do you know unless you reach for it?

 

5 hours ago, contel3 said:

I completely get where you're coming from. I don't need to take it as slow as you do, but even at my faster pace I still meet people where I just end up feeling uncomfortable….

It's kinda upsetting but when I think about it it's not necessarily a bad thing. My experience has been that the only men it went any further with were those who noticed my body language. They would try, but quickly notice if I wasn't into it. And try again when I did seem enthusiastic. The dates where I felt uncomfortable mostly didn't, regardless of pace….

You could try to casually slip it into conversation. Maybe just mention that you don't really feel comfortable kissing on the first date and like to let the tension build. It might be a bit direct, but you can also tell him that getting to know him is like foreplay for you. If you make it sound sexy instead of defensive they're more likely to stay interested.

I agree. Making it sound like a good thing, building anticipation. I pray there are men out there who will appreciate this!

 

2 hours ago, Shining One said:

Translation in my head: We're going to delay something that's important to you in building a relationship, but you better deliver on the things important to me. While I would generally avoid women who significantly delay physical intimacy, I might be willing to consider it if she's willing to be equally patient with the aspects of relationship building that are important to her.

Absolutely agree. It's a two way street. 

 

2 hours ago, Ruby Slippers said:

Sex is the most personal and intimate thing a person can do. These days it's been reduced by many to little more than a biological function like blowing your nose, but that doesn't change what it is at the core.

Women risk pregnancy, STD infection, emotional impact, and more. Men risk next to nothing.

I don't think it harms a woman's prospects in any way to be highly selective. She'll weed out only those not willing to invest in something real, which is a good thing for her.

Males of all species go to great lengths to secure mating partners. A few dinners is chump change in comparison to what males of some species do.

Another point is that people tend to value much more what they have to work and invest to get. Hence the saying: If she's amazing, she's not easy. If she's easy, she's not amazing.

I recently had a moment when I saw the mating rituals of birds (recent documentary on Netflix) and started to cry while thinking, "Goddamn BIRDS make nests, dances and fights just to mate. I can't even find a man to wait for sex let alone work for it!" (An overshare lol)

 

1 hour ago, SummerDreams said:

But why should women be the ones to always stop things from happening? I mean, why does the default have to be that men will attempt something sexual and that women should be the ones that with their body language will stop it? Why can't men be respectful and wait from women to show them they are ready to move forward?

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While I agree a woman needs to make her boundaries clear, when it comes to the BASICS, such as respect, it should be a given, not a lesson.

 

49 minutes ago, enigma32 said:

Reasons why I don't "woo" women.

In my experience, my time wasted in courting her means some other dude comes along, bangs her out, and she's with him now. 

Take too long before putting moves on a girl and sexuality comes into question.

She's already banged 25 other dudes on date 1. Too late to pretend this crap is anything special.

She is currently sleeping with one of her exes or some other FWB.

And this one happens more often than not; the girl ain't trying to wait. Before I met my now GF, the last girl I dated was talking about giving me a BJ after our first date. Kinda how it goes. 

Would you really want to continue with a woman who is easily persuaded by sex (instead of true values)? Sounds like you dodged a bullet.

 

8 minutes ago, simpycurious said:

You miss the point Summer.  A woman SHOULD NOT have to demand respect.  She should be treated with both dignity and respect because it’s the right thing to do.

This is exactly how I feel!!!! It should be a norm, not an exception. This is where my frustration comes in. When a man advances too quickly, I am reminded that I'm living in a society where these values are not upheld, and THAT is what gets to me - that the basics are missing, the BASICS. (I have my amazing father to thank for this, he taught me what it feels like to be treated with the utmost respect and love, he set the bar high, I blame him ) 

[Hopeful30]

15 minutes ago, basil67 said:

That's a stretch @simplycurious   Women can behave in ways which certainly aren't deserving of respect.  For instance, using men for free meals under the guise of looking for a relationship or are flaky or lie......   Starting out with respect is one thing, but retaining respect is another thing altogether. 

 

Respect isn't about the person you are projecting this respect to. It's about the SELF.  My actions and approaches are not dictated by the behaviours of others. They are a personal choice. I CHOOSE to be respectful of all men (good, bad, etc.), because that's the kind of woman I am. Men have nothing to do with who I choose to be.

[Ruby Slippers]

All the posts about male risk are only supporting the idea that men and women should wait to get to know anyone before having sex. Don't men want to take the time to make sure they're not potentially reproducing with a crazy backstabber who could have you on the hook for 18 years of child support?

[basil67]

Life is risk.  Some people are more risk averse than others.   Neither is right or wrong....it's personal choice.

[preraph]

You need to meet someone organically in some situation where you get to know them not even dating.  Like I met and got to know lots of guys when I worked retail, just standing around talking or taking lunch together.  Men are more focused on sex than anything, most of them, so it would be worth it to get in a situation you could just get to know them better because some guys will fall for some woman they are around repeatedly, even if she's not their sexual ideal.  Now, that doesn't mean it always works out, of course.

 

And the other thing to look for are guys who have something that's even more important to them than their penises, a man who has a creative passion or is real wrapped up in his work and loves it.  I ran with the music crowd, and that's how the serious musicians were.  It was music first, then women, and that was perfect for me, because I was music first as well.  But of course it helps if you can bond with them over that passion.  So maybe a semi-pro sports guy or musician or artist or writer, someone with something more on the brain than just leading with sex.  

[Ruby Slippers]

32 minutes ago, preraph said:

It was music first, then women...

I'm a hobby musician and used to hang out with a lot of musicians, dated a few. Many of them told me the main reason they invested all that time and energy into getting good at music is to improve their chances with women  

Edited March 4, 2020 by Ruby Slippers

[preraph]

All true, which is why I put "serious" musicians.  But yes, a lot of them only get started to see if they could get women.  Serious musicians, a lot of them will totally ignore women when they're rehearsing or recording or even at a guitar convention.  I'm talking about guys for whom not playing/writing music isn't an option.  Doesn't mean they don't still take full advantage of the women situation, of course, but they're married to the band or their guitar.  

[Juha]

If I was the man I would assume you had low interest with waiting 17 hours to respond to a simple text.  Bad texter or not..

 

You need to step up your game if you are serious about finding a good man to date.  With that type of behavior anyone interested would move on from you

interested or not.  Only guys who are desperate, have no options, or no self respect would put themselves through chasing someone who is not really interested by her behavior.

 

Men have little way of knowing how interested a woman is in them except by the woman's actions.  17 hours for a response in by text would say your are not really someone I am interested in but here is a crumb to keep you on the line if I change my mind...

 

 

[simpycurious]

To me, there is no protocol but simply what feels right and what works best for you.  

[Shining One]

1 hour ago, simpycurious said:

To me, there is no protocol but simply what feels right and what works best for you.  

What if these are mutually exclusive?

[Blind-Sided]

3 hours ago, basil67 said:

That's a stretch @simplycurious   Women can behave in ways which certainly aren't deserving of respect.  ........

 

Amen !!!   Want proof of that... ask my 13 yo daughter about her mother.

[RecentChange]

1 hour ago, Blind-Sided said:

Amen !!!   Want proof of that... ask my 13 yo daughter about her mother.

Uff, sorry if it's off topic, but that's really sad.

So your kid knows that her own mother, the person who makes up 50% of her DNA isn't someone deserving of respect? 

I hope that doesn't effect the way she feels about herself, or women in general as it often does. 

All the more reason both men and woman should be so choosey, and very very careful about who they impregnate, or allow to impregnate them. 

When it comes to risk and sex, I have often felt it's the guys who do not control their fertility (ie condoms, spermicide, plus pulling out etc) were the ones playing Russian roulette.

As a female who doesn't want kids, I take my own precautions - but if needed, I have options like the morning after pill, abortion etc.

If a guy carelessly drops his load - his future is no longer in his control. 

[thefooloftheyear]

5 hours ago, Hopeful30 said:

 

This is where my frustration comes in. Whenever a man makes a sexual advance very early, I feel disrespected, even though deep down I know it's not necessarily the man's fault (they do what they think is right). It feels like dating is an activity that reminds me that my womanhood is still operating by old-school standards in a new age world. I feel out of place, and it gets to me sometimes. I wonder "I am a woman worthy of love and respect. Where is my equal to recognize this?"

This is exactly how I feel!!!! It should be a norm, not an exception. This is where my frustration comes in. When a man advances too quickly, I am reminded that I'm living in a society where these values are not upheld, and THAT is what gets to me - that the basics are missing, the BASICS. (I have my amazing father to thank for this, he taught me what it feels like to be treated with the utmost respect and love, he set the bar high, I blame him ) 

Forgive me for saying this and I mean no disrespect, but you are seemingly WAYY too uptight over this issue....

So a guy makes a move on you before you are "ready"....So what??!!!    It doesn't necessarily mean he's missing the BASICS(whatever that is)...You need to just be able to deal with it and convey the fact  that its not time...That's all...It doesn't have to be as full of drama and intrigue as you are making it out to be..If he likes you it wont really bother him...Take it in stride....And be happy that he is that desirous of you in a romantic/sexual way.......In no way should you feel "disrespected"...If you like the guy(assuming he's cleared the hurdles to get to the point of a date). and he makes a move on you before you think you are ready, use it instead as an ego boost that your sexual attractiveness is working....

I cant speak for all(or any for that matter) women out there, but I know a LOT of women that complain about how lax their guys are about sex...Some can take it or leave it...Some just leave it...The absolute LAST thing most women want is some limp dicked. low drive guy that after 4 months of dating would rather watch the news and eat a box of donuts in front of the TV than play with you in the bedroom...

Its not about old school vs new...Ive been around a while and nothing really has changed in what most guys want...And sure...The possibility of getting played by a creep just looking to get laid exists no matter what you do...That's just the cost of doing business as they say....And if you aren't all that sexual or have some hangup, that's fine, but then its another dynamic that is thrown into the mix...

At the end of the day, try not to get twisted up over it....It can wind up being the best thing that happened to you, if you find the right guy AND he's very sexually driven...That's the type of guy most women(usually) want...

TFY