wilson1 Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 Hi Everyone, i haven't been in the forum since years ago so i hope you guys can help me. I met a girl last year and we dated for 4 months. It started as just sex (we had sex on the first date), but the best sex of my life hands down. Soon i realized she is incredibly smart, one of the brightest people i met in my life despite being so young, and i enjoyed also spending a lot of time with her. I initially didn't see as girlfriend material because of some specific dealbreakers that i have. For example i don't like smokers and she did smoke, and despite being beautiful she was not really a girly girl, never wore makeup, never dress up, didn't really workout or go to the gym. But soon after we started dating, she told me she quit smoking, she started going to the gym with me, started taking care of her hair, doing makeup, and she actually became really hot towards the end. Basically she started becoming the woman of my dreams really fast, and by the 4th month i was in love with her and thinking "this is it". Unfortunately, she betrayed me in a horrible way and now i suffer some form of PTSD (its been 4 months since the relationship ended and i can't get over it). On a friday night, we had a small argument, she left my home in the middle of the night and had sex with the very first stranger she could find on tinder, she came back home right after having sex with him, with her makeup all moved around, a huge bite mark on her neck, and even the guy's sperm still on her, she didn't even shower and she came back home with the exact same clothes she left. I still want to throw up when i remember it. Since then, i started investigating and found out a huge amount of lies during our whole relationship. I feel now that she was a complete stranger and that i fell in love with someone who didn't exist. I even go as far as thinking she has some personality disorder (i believe borderline), which is based only on things i found after the breakup. I will not get into all the details as this is incredibly wrong, but mostly i have kicked myself for not catching even 1 of her lies during 4 months. And i am in a constant fear of falling prey to something like this again. I have a lot of questions in my mind about what i should have done. I often think if i would have checked her phone at any point in our relationship, none of this would have happened and i wouldn't be hurt. Some questions: 1- Do you believe is acceptable to check someone's phone during a relationship? 2- If i come across a situation like this in the future, how can i detect any of this dishonesty before i get hurt? Especially when we are talking about an incredibly smart liar. 3- Even though it's been 4 months, i still have a million unanswered questions about our relationship. Some people told me to not dig anymore, but i still feel i need answers. Do you guys recommend ever reaching out and trying to get those answers from the person in any way? Any chance they will ever come clean about what really happened? I feel understanding what really happened will help me not fall trap into a similar situation in the future. 4-Any recommendations on how to get closure, and how to get over the constant flashbacks?
basil67 Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 A quick look at your history shows a lot of heartbreak in the past. Sorry it happened to you yet again. Anyway, in answer to your questions: 1. It's not acceptable to check someone's phone, especially without permission. But asking permission sends up red flags about the person who asks. 2. I totally get that you'd like to try and protect yourself, but there are no guarantees in relationships. The first clue that she wasn't who she said she was was the complete change from who she initially presented as into being the girly-girl of your dreams. It's like she doesn't know who she is. 3. Reaching out for answers will not help. Liars tell lies, so you can't believe anything she says. And she will also cling to 'her side' of the story. You may see the argument you had before she went out as 'small', but she may have a very different take on it. (not that it justifies cheating) 4. I assume your PTSD has been formally diagnosed: Continue working with your psychologist. Good luck 4 1
Ami1uwant Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 Why do you think it’s PT.SD? How did this end after her cheating? what were the warning signs you missed? you can’t check cell phones you can’t do some secret background checks...you will lose all trust. i cant answer these questions without knowing what you dug up.
Author wilson1 Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 I did some PTSD tests online and i score super high, i have all the symptoms (flashbacks, nightmares about the event almost every night for 4 months, etc etc). The only signs i missed were some innappropriate comments about guys, that most people would dismiss as "unreasonable jealousy", but my gut instinct was there and i ignored it. She wa extremely good at gaslighting me and making me feel i was unreasonable. But in the end every one of my gut feelings proved correct. For example she never really quit smoking, she was doing it with her friends (when i was not there of course), but she told me she didn't touch a cigarette in 2 months. She also went on dates with other guys. So how can you avoid ever getting into a situation like this again? I guess this is the source of my ptsd
preraph Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 She probably had a lot of pent-up resentment toward you for wanting her to change everything. So then during the argument all that resentment bubbled up and she acted out in a nasty way. Bottom line, you were only together for 4 months, and you asked her to be someone she wasn't and she tried, so you really never even knew the real person at four months. 4 months is a length of time most people wouldn't even be calling someone their boyfriend or girlfriend yet. And 4 months is also often the point when you do starts to get to know someone and realize they're not who you wanted them to be and to go ahead and break up. I mean you were dissatisfied with so many things about her. No one likes someone who's critical of them like that. Obviously you're not a good match. You didn't even say what the argument was about that I bet it was about something else you didn't like about her and were critical about it. Whatever it was she was ready to walk so she did something horrible that she knew you would hate on her way out the door. My best advice to you is don't try to change a person. Find one you like as is. Most women never would have gone along with all that and would have had a much shorter fuse than even she did. You just need to face reality and realize it was only 4 months out of your life and either decide to waste another bunch of time focusing on it we're cutting your losses and moving on. Good luck.
Author wilson1 Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 30 minutes ago, preraph said: She probably had a lot of pent-up resentment toward you for wanting her to change everything. So then during the argument all that resentment bubbled up and she acted out in a nasty way. Bottom line, you were only together for 4 months, and you asked her to be someone she wasn't and she tried, so you really never even knew the real person at four months. 4 months is a length of time most people wouldn't even be calling someone their boyfriend or girlfriend yet. And 4 months is also often the point when you do starts to get to know someone and realize they're not who you wanted them to be and to go ahead and break up. I mean you were dissatisfied with so many things about her. No one likes someone who's critical of them like that. Obviously you're not a good match. You didn't even say what the argument was about that I bet it was about something else you didn't like about her and were critical about it. Whatever it was she was ready to walk so she did something horrible that she knew you would hate on her way out the door. My best advice to you is don't try to change a person. Find one you like as is. Most women never would have gone along with all that and would have had a much shorter fuse than even she did. You just need to face reality and realize it was only 4 months out of your life and either decide to waste another bunch of time focusing on it we're cutting your losses and moving on. Good luck. No, the argument was not me trying to change something about her. About smoking, going to the gym, i didn't force her to do it, she simply decided to (and i wasn't expecting it, as i was happy to just continue to have sex with her like we did in the beginning). She pushed for a relationship and then she did this.
basil67 Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) So what was the argument about? Also, if you really think you have PTSD, then you need professional help. Personally, I think PTSD is a bit of a stretch....but psychologist/psychiatrist knows far more than I do. Edited February 11, 2020 by basil67 1
Andy_K Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) It's not failing to catch her lies you should be kicking yourself for... it's misjudging her entire character. Nobody is narcissistic and heartless enough to break up with you in that way without giving SOME indication of who they are in the previous four months. Whatever the signs were, you missed them or chose to ignore them and instead built up a completely fictional picture of her in your head. At the end of the day, you will never, ever, be able to detect all the lies of a smart liar. There is no point in trying, nor any point in worrying about doing so. Let that fear go. Instead focus on how you'd be treated by someone genuine, and start looking for that instead. Edited February 11, 2020 by Andy_K 4
Author wilson1 Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Andy_K said: It's not failing to catch her lies you should be kicking yourself for... it's misjudging her entire character. Nobody is narcissistic and heartless enough to break up with you in that way without giving SOME indication of who they are in the previous four months. Whatever the signs were, you missed them or chose to ignore them and instead built up a completely fictional picture of her in your head. At the end of the day, you will never, ever, be able to detect all the lies of a smart liar. There is no point in trying, nor any point in worrying about doing so. Let that fear go. Instead focus on how you'd be treated by someone genuine, and start looking for that instead. I totally agree with you. This is exactly what i am kicking myself for. I totally trusted and respected her and she was simply not the person i thought. Do you have any clues on what to look for? I really like this video from Jordan Peterson, i just dont know what to look for in this case.
Author wilson1 Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, basil67 said: So what was the argument about? Also, if you really think you have PTSD, then you need professional help. Personally, I think PTSD is a bit of a stretch....but psychologist/psychiatrist knows far more than I do. It's a long story. It was a very small recurring argument but that night maybe was the last drop in the bucket. She was making comments about other guys that bothered me, since early on when we got committed. Now it seems like an obvious red flag, but if i asked back then she would say it's "unreasonable jealousy", because i had no evidence of anything. She would always gaslight me if i got jealous about anything. And i never got proof of anything. That friday night she made a comment that bothered me (about someone's accent being better than mine, which was recurring on her commenting on other guys sexy voices). I told her it really bothered me, especially after we already dicussed and i asked to please stop making such comments. She acted offended and left my apartment, and had sex with a stranger as explained in the first post. Edited February 11, 2020 by wilson1 1
elaine567 Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 I don''t know about your other girls but maybe starting off a relationship as "just sex" is not a good founding for a proper relationship. You are effectively choosing someone who is comfortable with "casual" and then expecting them to change into gf material. Also "great sex" can make men (especially) overlook all the other red flags. You are so drunk on great sex, that it muddles your thinking. You are also I think a person who is "jealous" and I don't mean that in a necessarily bad way, but you cannot cope with a woman who is going to rub other guys in your face, so best next time to see that a a red flag and just don't go there. Paranoia will annoy her, so better to choose a woman who is not pushing your buttons over other guys in the first place. Less arguments and drama. 3
Author wilson1 Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, elaine567 said: I don''t know about your other girls but maybe starting off a relationship as "just sex" is not a good founding for a proper relationship. You are effectively choosing someone who is comfortable with "casual" and then expecting them to change into gf material. Also "great sex" can make men (especially) overlook all the other red flags. You are so drunk on great sex, that it muddles your thinking. You are also I think a person who is "jealous" and I don't mean that in a necessarily bad way, but you cannot cope with a woman who is going to rub other guys in your face, so best next time to see that a a red flag and just don't go there. Paranoia will annoy her, so better to choose a woman who is not pushing your buttons over other guys in the first place. Less arguments and drama. Elaine, i am not sure i am following you. How can this be "Paranoia" if in the end she proved me right?
elaine567 Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 Just now, wilson1 said: Elaine, i am not sure i am following you. How can this be "Paranoia" if in the end she proved me right Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not talking about you.. You can't change anyone, they tend to do exactly what they want to do anyway. The fact it was a recurring argument ultimately led to her acting out. It was a pretty extreme reaction on her part. My guess not Tinder, but some guy she already knew, but I could be wrong. BUT my point is that it is better to cut your losses than keep hitting your head against a brick wall. 2
Caauug Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 7 hours ago, wilson1 said: Some questions: 1- Do you believe is acceptable to check someone's phone during a relationship? 2- If i come across a situation like this in the future, how can i detect any of this dishonesty before i get hurt? Especially when we are talking about an incredibly smart liar. 3- Even though it's been 4 months, i still have a million unanswered questions about our relationship. Some people told me to not dig anymore, but i still feel i need answers. Do you guys recommend ever reaching out and trying to get those answers from the person in any way? Any chance they will ever come clean about what really happened? I feel understanding what really happened will help me not fall trap into a similar situation in the future. 4-Any recommendations on how to get closure, and how to get over the constant flashbacks? 1- No, but if you have reasonable doubt and need conformation things are not right, you are on the way out anyway..... Snoop for additional proof? Yes. 2- Maybe it wasn't so much of a lie to her. Maybe it was more of a "You don't need to know what will not hurt you" or a "You will be fine believing what you already know". To her it may not of been a lie but more of a lack of disclosure? 3- She will not tell you what you need to know... There is two sides to every story, yours and GF's, her side will never answer your questions because you are a man and she is a girl. She will likely find it acceptable on what she did, you never will.... You two think different, you both may agree on a subject but will have a slightly different take on it. You both have different needs, yours were met, you were falling in love, her's were not she was still looking at other men..... Dig? Yes but not with your ExGF…. 4- Your closure should come in understanding what your ExGF was doing and why she was doing it. Thinking about it from your side will never give you that, you have to think of it from her side. 1
Fletch Lives Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 The only closure is time. Time is the great healer. As time goes on the pain will fade. 3
ExpatInItaly Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 This girl is never going to come clean and admit all her wrong-doings, OP. You can forget even trying to get it out of her. And no, it's not cool to check someone's phone. When you're that point, you're either far too insecure or your partner has already given you some tangible reason not to trust them. It doesn't bode well for the relationship, regardless of whether you snoop into their phone. Some people are able to verify their concerns that way, yes, but sometimes it causes more problems if they misinterpret something or get caught. Unfortunately, you can't prevent this from ever happening again. It's a risk we take when we trust someone; we trust them not to purposefully hurt us, but we can't ever be 100% in control of them and know with 100% certainty that it will never happen. However, we can mitigate the risk by carefully choosing who our maters, and being proactive about red flags as they come up. If you truly believe you're suffering PTSD symptoms, it's time to see a counselor. That's no way to live and you deserve some peace in your life. 4
BaileyB Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 No, it’s not acceptable to check someone’s phone. And no, you will not find the answers that you seek from this woman. How do you rely on the unreliable? How you you rationalize with the irrational? How did you get closure from another person - you don’t. Time and counselling, my friend. Good luck. 3
scooby-philly Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 11 hours ago, Ami1uwant said: Why do you think it’s PT.SD? OP - Do not assume it's PTSD and do not discount anyone saying it's not or questioning you. Go talk to a therapist and get a proper diagnosis completed. Online tools can be great as a benchmark, but even if you don't want to or can't afford regular therapy for an extended amount of time, in a few sessions a good therapist can diagnose a major problem like PTSD. 10 hours ago, preraph said: She probably had a lot of pent-up resentment toward you for wanting her to change everything. So then during the argument all that resentment bubbled up and she acted out in a nasty way. Bottom line, you were only together for 4 months, and you asked her to be someone she wasn't and she tried, so you really never even knew the real person at four months. 4 months is a length of time most people wouldn't even be calling someone their boyfriend or girlfriend yet. And 4 months is also often the point when you do starts to get to know someone and realize they're not who you wanted them to be and to go ahead and break up. I mean you were dissatisfied with so many things about her. No one likes someone who's critical of them like that. Preraph - I normally love your responses, but there was no indication from the poster (and he later stated clearly) that he was trying to change her. Now, I always say we only hear one side of a story on here. But it's he legitimately telling the truth, then there's no reason to look at this as this woman "reacting" to him being controlling. I've actually dated someone just like the person the OP described and I'm one of the most accepting, loving people out there. IF (IF IF IF) what he said was true and accurate, this isn't a response from her to his controlling, but a well honed psychopath plying her trade. BUT....the lesson for the OP is to fall for the person they are NOW. If you don't like them now, if they have major red flags now, if they have issues you can't deal with NOW, then it's not meant to be NOW. 9 hours ago, basil67 said: So what was the argument about? Also, if you really think you have PTSD, then you need professional help. Personally, I think PTSD is a bit of a stretch....but psychologist/psychiatrist knows far more than I do. OP - again, don't discount your self-diagnosis but don't rely on it either. 6 hours ago, Andy_K said: It's not failing to catch her lies you should be kicking yourself for... it's misjudging her entire character. Nobody is narcissistic and heartless enough to break up with you in that way without giving SOME indication of who they are in the previous four months. Whatever the signs were, you missed them or chose to ignore them and instead built up a completely fictional picture of her in your head. At the end of the day, you will never, ever, be able to detect all the lies of a smart liar. There is no point in trying, nor any point in worrying about doing so. Let that fear go. Instead focus on how you'd be treated by someone genuine, and start looking for that instead. This is a very good point. You didn't "fail" in missing her lies, you "failed" (and I don't mean that in a judgmental tone OP) to see her for who she really was. For me, I dated a psychopath once so I know the signs and will never make that mistake again. That said, while I learned that lesson, I fell for someone who was an immature, insecure, and secretive person. I failed to see that her 'good girl' and caring attitude was just an act. She pretended to be that way only to get what she wanted. 4 hours ago, elaine567 said: I don''t know about your other girls but maybe starting off a relationship as "just sex" is not a good founding for a proper relationship. You are effectively choosing someone who is comfortable with "casual" and then expecting them to change into gf material. Also "great sex" can make men (especially) overlook all the other red flags. You are so drunk on great sex, that it muddles your thinking. You are also I think a person who is "jealous" and I don't mean that in a necessarily bad way, but you cannot cope with a woman who is going to rub other guys in your face, so best next time to see that a a red flag and just don't go there. Paranoia will annoy her, so better to choose a woman who is not pushing your buttons over other guys in the first place. Less arguments and drama. I'm not picking up on any "jealousy" vibes here. Now, the OP may have problems and I'm not weighing in on his character. But..having been through a similar experience I can safely argue that there are women out there (and look, I'm not absolving men here okay) that play games to mask and hide their character, their lies, etc. OP - pick up the book "Attached". I just started it after my most recent relationship ended. Just the information on attachment styles alone and how a partner with each style make act in a relationship is priceless. From what you shared about her behavior, it sounds like besides being a psychopath potentially, even if she isn't, she's got an avoidant attachment style. Hence her constant rubbing things in your face, putting you down, etc. 4 hours ago, elaine567 said: Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not talking about you.. You can't change anyone, they tend to do exactly what they want to do anyway. The fact it was a recurring argument ultimately led to her acting out. It was a pretty extreme reaction on her part. My guess not Tinder, but some guy she already knew, but I could be wrong. BUT my point is that it is better to cut your losses than keep hitting your head against a brick wall. This wasn't her "acting out". This wasn't someone responding to years of physical or emotional abuse. This is a psychopath or at the very least a very unstable person who needs a lot of therapy and help to become anything close to "normal". 2
scooby-philly Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 OP, To address your questions directly: 1- Do you believe is acceptable to check someone's phone during a relationship? "Check" no. But at like 6 months or 12, you should be able to pick up a partner's phone and answer it if someone calls, know each other's passwords, etc. 2- If i come across a situation like this in the future, how can i detect any of this dishonesty before i get hurt? Especially when we are talking about an incredibly smart liar. You can't "detect dishonesty" that easily. What you can do is stitch together a clearer view of who a person is by weaving things together. Good, experienced liars, a psychopath, other people you wouldn't ever want to date, they can hide individual lies pretty well. But the patterns of behavior they can't mask without telling more lies. Don't ever settle for anyone that insults you, belittles you, or compares you to ANYONE. Don't ever settle for anyone who discounts your feelings Don't ever get to a point like you did without going to trusted family and friends and sharing your concerns. Someone may be able to help confirm or deny your feelings 3- Even though it's been 4 months, i still have a million unanswered questions about our relationship. Some people told me to not dig anymore, but i still feel i need answers. Do you guys recommend ever reaching out and trying to get those answers from the person in any way? Any chance they will ever come clean about what really happened? I feel understanding what really happened will help me not fall trap into a similar situation in the future. Even "normal" people struggle with the truth. A seasoned manipulator, psychopath, serial cheater, etc. - no, they're not going to admit anything No, you will not get anywhere by worrying about this happening again. You can take the time you need - weeks, months, to heal, to learn, and to let your inner child learn to trust again, but love is vulnerability and vulnerability leads to risk (and hopefully one day for you, reward) 4-Any recommendations on how to get closure, and how to get over the constant flashbacks? As I said in my previous post quoting some previous responses, get some professional help - even a few sessions can be worthwhile of your time and money. Don't expect closure from her or anyone else. Closure will come with time, perspective, and allowing yourself to feel and move through the emotions. Started another good book since my last breakup too called 'Rebuilding when your relationship ends". Good stuff about the process and steps involved in healing. Worth a read. 1
d0nnivain Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 Odds are you do not have PTSD. That is a trauma based diagnosis that can only be made by a competent mental health professional not some on line quiz. The fact that you scored so high on the quiz is a good basis to seek professional therapy but you can't diagnose yourself. I'm not saying that you weren't shocked & upset by what she did but that is a far cry from such an extreme diagnosis. Stop being so dramatic. Now remember you learned she has no morals. So you need to break up with her. You were only with her for 120 days. Going forward in your next relationship you need to but on the brakes early. Do not get so attached so fast. As somebody else pointed out, it's hard to go from casual to committed. Somebody who prefers casual isn't going to be the settling down time. Next relationship you need to be the guy who waits -- a few weeks, a month -- something longer then the day you met to have sex. Really get to know the person before you give them your body. If you can establish a trusting, loving relationship before things get physical you run less of a risk getting hurt by an unworthy person. You should not snoop but you should listen to your gut more. It was screaming at you that things were off but you brainwashed yourself into believing that weren't allowed to stick up for yourself or you were being unreasonably jealous. I'm a flirty girl. If my partners commented that my behavior was upsetting him, I tried to dial it back; I couldn't really stop because frankly I didn't want to as I wasn't doing anything wrong but since it upset my partner I tried to be sensitive. Part of the issue here is she ignored your feelings. That seems to be a red flag you missed. Closure comes from within. She doesn't have the answers you want. Don't ask her. Just get her out of your life & move forward. 3
mark clemson Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 I suspect you're right about her having strong tendencies towards a personality disorder if not an actual full blown one. Attempt to satisfy your curiosity/questions if you must, but I agree that you're not likely to get any genuine, worthwhile answers out of her. Her approach to "resolving" relationship difficulties is - "look - I just f***ed some random guy and then came home to rub it in your face." That's really all you need to know. She may have been attempting to have a "normal" relationship with you, but I suspect (as mentioned by others above) that she's not even remotely ready for that. It's not always obvious that someone's a trainwreck until a ways in. You let sex and "love" blind you. That happens to many, many people. It's certainly easier said than done, but IMO the absolute best thing you can do is just move on and not think or worry even one iota about her ever again. 3
Tamfana Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 12 hours ago, wilson1 said: So how can you avoid ever getting into a situation like this again? I guess this is the source of my ptsd Place a higher priority on character and personality and wait to have sex until you know someone much better. 3
ThorntonMelon Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 So unfortunately the answer here isn't one that you are going to be very happy with, but it is what it is. The issue you currently have is 100% your issue and has nothing to do with your past relationship. You're dealing with extremely obsessive behavior and until you take direct steps to address it, you're not going to be able to have anything resembling healthy relationships going forward. Whether you are suffering from PTSD or something else is almost secondary (It's relevant to your mental health professional obviously as it relates to treating you). But you need therapy to help you process what you're feeling. None of this has anything to do with her. The good news is you should be able to deal with it in a way that makes you stronger for future relationships. 4
basil67 Posted February 11, 2020 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 11 hours ago, wilson1 said: Do you have any clues on what to look for? The biggest clue was her complete change in her presentation. Taking the effort to dress up for a date night is one thing, but it sounds like she did a 180' change. You saw it as a positive, but I see it as someone who doesn't know who they are. Edited February 11, 2020 by basil67
Author wilson1 Posted February 11, 2020 Author Posted February 11, 2020 12 hours ago, elaine567 said: Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they are not talking about you.. You can't change anyone, they tend to do exactly what they want to do anyway. The fact it was a recurring argument ultimately led to her acting out. It was a pretty extreme reaction on her part. My guess not Tinder, but some guy she already knew, but I could be wrong. BUT my point is that it is better to cut your losses than keep hitting your head against a brick wall. Yes you are wrong. It was tinder, and it was not the first time she goes on a date. So "The fact it was a recurring argument ultimately led to her acting out.". She was acting from way before, my "unreasonable jealousy" turned out to not be unreasonable at all in the end. The question is how to avoid being in this situation again.
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