Beendaredonedat Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 Still doesn't answer my question. How does that prove what you said that being that locking down extends the time the bug will be around. Personally, through sheer evidence, it looks like Lana in the post above has given me a clearer picture of the whole deal.
sothereiwas Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, lana-banana said: Also, locking everyone down reduces the strain on hospital infrastructure, which is the most critical part of this. Because it spreads the sickness out over time, extending the period in exchange for reducing the volume at any given time. Locking people away won't make the virus go away. Remember, I was responding to a person who complained about being isolated for an long period of time. I'm not saying that flattening the curve is a bad thing, I'm just saying that it's not a way to get this over with faster necessarily. In fact the entire strategy depends on extending it in the time axis while reducing it in the severity axis. That might be, likely is a reasonable strategy but until everyone is vaccinated at the earliest, we're all potentially getting this. The ideal solution is unlikely to be cratering civilization while we huddle in our caves.
sothereiwas Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 Just now, Beendaredonedat said: Still doesn't answer my question. I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.
Beendaredonedat Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 Well, I don't need to understand propaganda. I prefer to go on evidence rather than speculation.
lana-banana Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 Just now, sothereiwas said: The ideal solution is unlikely to be cratering civilization while we huddle in our caves. It's not "cratering civilization" if we ensure everyone has enough money to cover their basic expenses and stay the hell home. Other countries have managed this just fine. We can afford to do it, too. If people have enough money to keep themselves afloat then they'll have enough money to go back to their businesses, too. What's definitely not an ideal solution is letting the virus go unchecked and killing off untold numbers of the elderly, immunocompromised, and seemingly healthy. That tanks the economy and kills upwards of a million Americans in the next 18 months. The very idea that we have to choose between American lives and the stock market isn't just incorrect but appalling, and anybody who thinks the second is more important is a psychopath. 1 2
sothereiwas Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, lana-banana said: What's definitely not an ideal solution is letting the virus go unchecked and killing off untold numbers of the elderly, immunocompromised, and seemingly healthy. This is what's known as a false dichotomy. A spectrum of strategies exist between the two extremes and the optimal solution is likely not at either end of the spectrum. 1
Beendaredonedat Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 I have no scientific proof of this, it's just a guess, but my guess is that Trump is talking releasing lockdown because China has now got to the stage of letting people back to work and he's freaking out that their economy will recover while the US's is still stagnant. Not to mention all his resorts sitting idle. 1 1
mark clemson Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Marc878 said: Not sure where you’re getting your info but everyone around me is in lockdown. I have kids in Illinois, North Carolina and Florida. They are in lockdown as well. Same with a friend in California. All hospitals in the area have delayed surgery etc and are in lockdown as well. Believing in the news media in today’s world is pretty naive. Respectfully, you are correct about the level of lockdowns. The concerns being voiced aren't about the lockdowns, they are about the prospect of ending them quickly, being floated by Trump. That's not the news media, that's Trump. They're just accurately reporting the words coming out of his mouth. To be fair to Trump, I do think there's a cost to weigh loss of economic activity, as per my post a few pages back. I think we are "sacrificing lives" to a certain extent by forcing potentially millions of service worker americans into homelessness/poverty if this is extended for, say, a year. I also actually think this is (theoretically) solvable in a few months as per China/S. Korea with lockdowns followed up by large scaled testing and isolations. Whether any/all of that actually happens remains to be seen. Trump seems to change his mind a lot, so we'll see what actually happens. I do think ending lockdowns too early without very effective follow up measures such as mass testing is probably a bad idea. I could be wrong about that, but I don't think so. I think the worry people have is that laissez-faire becomes the de facto policy. Unlikely, IMO, but also theoretically possible with Trump. I don't think he's stupid enough to want a "second wave" of this coming back to haunt us and possibly the rest of the world along with us, although with him you never quite know. 1
Redhead14 Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, sothereiwas said: This is what's known as a false dichotomy. A spectrum of strategies exist between the two extremes and the optimal solution is likely not at either end of the spectrum. So, you go to your parents and/or grandparents and tell them that the President and his minions and everyone who supports it have chosen to let them be locked up for an indefinite period of time.
Redhead14 Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, mark clemson said: . I don't think he's stupid enough Exactly what are you basing that statement on? Apart from that, this is driven by greed and selfishness. Greed and selfishness aren't about intelligence. His hotels and "empire" are suffering . . . 1
sothereiwas Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 1 minute ago, mark clemson said: To be fair to Trump, I do think there's a cost to weigh loss of economic activity, as per my post a few pages back. I watched the press con live, the sense I got of it was that the administration wants to temper the panicky voices calling for a total shutdown with a little common sense and also wants to evaluate the situation in an iterative ongoing manner. Those seem like reasonable asks to me. Trump is not an eloquent well spoken politician, but the actions taken so far, when examined in the light available when they were taken, seem to be fairly good. So far. Federal support of state action is a reasonable way to go at the moment I think. It does no good to flatten the curve if we can't feed the doctors by the time we get near the middle of the new, flatter, curve. We have to do both, maintain the economy as much as possible while avoiding overcommitting our medical facilities and working on a vaccine. 1
sothereiwas Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 6 minutes ago, Redhead14 said: So, you go to your parents and/or grandparents and tell them that the President and his minions and everyone who supports it have chosen to let them be locked up for an indefinite period of time. No, I'm not visiting my parents until this is over, and they are not dumb, no one needs to explain it to them.
Marc878 Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 11 minutes ago, mark clemson said: Respectfully, you are correct about the level of lockdowns. The concerns being voiced aren't about the lockdowns, they are about the prospect of ending them quickly, being floated by Trump. Nope, it was that most think it’s just flu and we aren’t taking it seriously which from what I’ve seen and witnessed isn’t the case.
suladas Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Beendaredonedat said: Wait to y'all see a huge spike in cases now that everyone from around the globe have been mandated to get home. 1 million of them coming back to Canada. That is the part of this that is stupid. They claimed they shut down the borders but still people coming in and doing whatever they want. The government is choosing to let this get out of control. 1 1
mark clemson Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, Redhead14 said: Exactly what are you basing that statement on? Apart from that, this is driven by greed and selfishness. Greed and selfishness aren't about intelligence. His hotels and "empire" are suffering . . . I think he does what his advisors tell him to do, which is generally what US presidents do. Trump probably goes his own way more than most and also I'm not convinced of the quality of his advisors. He does seem to prefer "yes-men" (and women) and to boot those who don't support his views. Also, as President I'm pretty sure he has no access to his actual business data right now (a conflict of interest issue) although since HIS SON is running things, he probably has at least some insight (ha ha). However, as far as greed goes, fixing this fully sooner rather than later is best for both his hotels and business AND the rest of the country. So, greed (if we assume that) is aligned to what's best for everyone (at the moment). To me the real issue is whether the correct steps to do that are actually taken or not. A misguided move (whether motivated by greed or any other motivation) could cause a lot more problems, extend this whole thing longer, etc. 1
mark clemson Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, Marc878 said: Nope, it was that most think it’s just flu... Well, that's certainly part of it too. I'm pretty sure Trump didn't help things yesterday tho.
sothereiwas Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, suladas said: That is the part of this that is stupid. If they allow repatriation on the condition the repatriated people are actually quarantined I'm OK with it, but this "promise to be good and you can come on in" thing is stupid.
pepperbird Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Beendaredonedat said: Wait to y'all see a huge spike in cases now that everyone from around the globe have been mandated to get home. 1 million of them coming back to Canada. For some reaosn I don't understand, my husband is considered an "essential employee" and has to be at work. CUPE is POed about that, but it is what it is. He works as an expediter for the CF, but with nothing coming in right now, he's pretty much just sitting at work doing nothing. Much of the dockyard, base and airfield have been stood down, and other than security, he's one of the only people there. I don't understand why the people returning aren't being put up somewhere for the 14 days recommended quarantine and being asked to foot the bill. I have little sympathy for them, especially the ones who left for their March break vacation knowing what was going on. "Snowbirds" I can understand a bit or people who had to work, but vacationers? No.
Gaeta Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 8 minutes ago, suladas said: That is the part of this that is stupid. They claimed they shut down the borders but still people coming in and doing whatever they want. The government is choosing to let this get out of control. The problem 1) The snowbirds insurances stopped coverning them since yesterday. As Canadians we do not want to enter the American Healthy System with no insurance coverage. The problem 2) Because millions of snowbirds have been listenning to American news they are under the impression it's just a flu and once here they do not listen to the instructions of staying in quarantine for 14 days. Some of them cross the border and stop at Costco on their way home. The problem 3) Staying home here in Canada is not mandatory, yet. The problem 4) Justin Trudeau
sothereiwas Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, pepperbird said: I don't understand why the people returning aren't being put up somewhere for the 14 days recommended quarantine and being asked to foot the bill. I have little sympathy for them, especially the ones who left for their March break vacation knowing what was going on. "Snowbirds" I can understand a bit or people who had to work, but vacationers? No. I'd say base that on when they left perhaps. People who have been gone 3 years and want to come back in the crisis are not spring breakers. Funding this publicly isn't a terrible idea, it's not like it's club med anyway.
pepperbird Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 1 minute ago, sothereiwas said: I'd say base that on when they left perhaps. People who have been gone 3 years and want to come back in the crisis are not spring breakers. Funding this publicly isn't a terrible idea, it's not like it's club med anyway. A lot of schools up here still did their senior trips, and many of the people coming back were vacationers. One woman was allowed to enter and she died about four hours later from the virus. She;d been on a trip and travelled to Fiji, france and several other countries. https://globalnews.ca/news/6720234/coronavirus-cbsa-investigating-traveller-covid-19-died-toronto/ 1
Marc878 Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, Gaeta said: The problem 1) The snowbirds insurances stopped coverning them since yesterday. As Canadians we do not want to enter the American Healthy System with no insurance coverage. The problem 2) Because millions of snowbirds have been listenning to American news they are under the impression it's just a flu and once here they do not listen to the instructions of staying in quarantine for 14 days. Some of them cross the border and stop at Costco on their way home. The problem 3) Staying home here in Canada is not mandatory, yet. The problem 4) Justin Trudeau American news hasn’t been downplaying this. The reports are if anything “it’s the end of the world”. You catch it you die. This is a huge revenue stream for them. I lived in SC for years. February was Can Am days. Canadians came in droves. Most drove down in these huge trucks some even pulling trailers, etc. Upon their return they’d load up. They would wipe out all the local Walmart’s and grocery stores. Trucks and trailers overflowing with goods. Some would tarp them down. It was hilarious. So they vote for a socialist government but come here to stock up. Pretty hypocritical. 1
sothereiwas Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, Marc878 said: This is a huge revenue stream for them. This ^^^^^
Gaeta Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Marc878 said: American news hasn’t been downplaying this. I lived in SC for years. February was Can Am days. Canadians came in droves. Most drove down in these huge trucks some even pulling trailers, etc. Upon their return they’d load up. They would wipe out all the local Walmart’s and grocery stores. Trucks and trailers overflowing with goods. Some would tarp them down. It was hilarious. It may depends on the state? Snobirds go down to Florida and up to a couple of days ago the beaches were full and Miami was a free for all. And you guys come up here in buses to buy our medicines. We're not gonna start throwing rocks at each other.
Marc878 Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Gaeta said: It may depends on the state? Snobirds go down to Florida and up to a couple of days ago the beaches were full and Miami was a free for all. And you guys come up here in buses to buy our medicines. We're not gonna start throwing rocks at each other. Greed conquers all
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