Novel Coronavirus COVID-19

[CaliforniaGirl]

9 hours ago, sothereiwas said:

"Table 4 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). For 7% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.5 additional conditions or causes per death. The number of deaths with each condition or cause is shown for all deaths and by age groups. For data on comorbidity," - cdc website

That looks to me like they're saying 93% of the COVID-19 deaths had another pre existing health issue involved. I could be reading it wrong. 

But how many people in the U.S. have some pre-existing medical condition? Millions of people have asthma (see "breathing problems" on the list), millions have dementia, millions have or have had cancer, millions have heart disease and so on. So....by this data surely a huge chunk of the population will be at risk, period. A big chunk of the population has pre-existing medical conditions, specifically those most tied to this data, not to mention additional ones that inherently make the system weaker.

So it's not weird that so many covid victims had one, and at the same time, it's no great comfort to millions and millions of people that it's those with pre-existing conditions that are usually (but still not exclusively) at risk. You are talking about *a lot* of people here.

Edited May 18, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[elaine567]

10.5% of the U.S. population, have diabetes...~34.2 million people...

[CaliforniaGirl]

1 minute ago, elaine567 said:

10.5% of the U.S. population, have diabetes...~34.2 million people...

Exactly. And that's just diabetes. Assuming 19 doesn't care much about country of origin we can add to this millions in the U.S. with the other most common comorbidities listed - dementia, breathing problems (how many dozens of conditions might that umbrella cover? Asthma all by itself is milions), heart issues - 15 million, kidney disease and so on.

A lot of people.

To understate things.

[Redhead14]

21 hours ago, Ellener said:

, it's a very personal decision since people's circumstances are all different I think. 

Once things really loosen up, people will stop wearing masks as well.  Some are already around here and/or weren't abiding by the masks rules.  So, it's not a personal decision for us anymore.  If the "personal decision" of others is to not abide by the guidelines and gather and not wear masks, etc., they are removing/at least limiting our (the higher risk people) ability to move about freely in the world they are limiting our rights and it's no longer a personal decision.  They are making the decision for us.   I think there should be a a law that requires face masks at least to try to at least minimize the risks best as we can.  I've said this before, I consider anyone who isn't wearing a mask to be a weapon, a threat to me if they try to approach me and I will treat them as such.  There have already been some serious threats and harm has come to some people who are wearing masks even.  And, there have been store clerks who have been attacked for trying to enforce their store policies about wearing masks.  Not everyone thinks it's a "personal decision".  They are trying to impose the disease on others because of their righteous indignation regarding government "control" over something that is not difficult or time-consuming or much of an imposition at all. 

It's not like they are being asked to wear hazmat suits and go through decontamination booths each time they go out and about for crying out loud. 

[Redhead14]

6 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

But how many people in the U.S. have some pre-existing medical condition? Millions of people have asthma (see "breathing problems" on the list), millions have dementia, millions have or have had cancer, millions have heart disease and so on. So....by this data surely a huge chunk of the population will be at risk, period. A big chunk of the population has pre-existing medical conditions, specifically those most tied to this data, not to mention additional ones that inherently make the system weaker.

So it's not weird that so many covid victims had one, and at the same time, it's no great comfort to millions and millions of people that it's those with pre-existing conditions that are usually (but still not exclusively) at risk. You are talking about *a lot* of people here.

Right, some people are discounting and treating those people like they are disposable and/or implying that because they don't take care of themselves or are really old, etc. deserve to die anyway.  The fact is that there are millions of people who are high-risk and have underlying conditions that are not a result of unhealthy lifestyles or obesity, etc.  I have AFIB and only 61 and otherwise healthy but I'm supposed to just suck it up because people don't want to be "inconvenienced" by wearing masks at the very least.  My daughter has Type 1 diabetes which is not a result of an unhealthy lifestyle either and she's only 31.  I'm fine with opening things up.  That has to happen, but the masks and minimal guidelines need to remain in place to at least make an attempt to minimize the risks for everyone.  But that's not going to happen either.  My SO and I have resigned ourselves to a couple of years isolation probably.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Redhead14

[Redhead14]

22 hours ago, Happy Lemming said:

Interesting read/video... thanks for the link. 

Oh... I agree, but I didn't think it was 70% of the overall deaths in my county.

Again, I'm just trying to wrap my brain around this whole thing.  I really don't know what to think (at this point) or how to interpret the data coming from my state and county officials.

The problem is that since we locked down and started masking up, we don't really know what the figures would have been.  I think we are about to find out just how bad it could have been when the "second wave" hits and everyone has been out and about and so many will not wear masks or take minimal guidelines to heart anymore.  Just wait and see before assuming anything . . . keep yourself as safe as you can going forward for awhile and observe.  It's going to be hard to keep yourself safe though if no one else is trying to do anything. 

Sit back and observe for a while when things open up.  Let the rest of them be the canaries.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Redhead14

[preraph]

I had horrible asthma as a child. Now I have chronic bronchitis and it's been real hard to cough things up and breathe for the last 2 months. I haven't been tested. I'd be relieved to find out that I have had it, because otherwise my condition has taken a turn for the worse. 

[Redhead14]

1 minute ago, preraph said:

I had horrible asthma as a child. Now I have chronic bronchitis and it's been real hard to cough things up and breathe for the last 2 months. I haven't been tested. I'd be relieved to find out that I have had it, because otherwise my condition has taken a turn for the worse. 

Watch out for the people who think its just "too bad" and are willing to sacrifice you and your ability to move about the country freely by refusing to do minimal things like taking 2 seconds to put on a mask or stay a few feet back . . . be well.  Prayers for you and yours.

[amaysngrace]

People do live irresponsible lifestyles without even realizing it.   Denial and hiding away in a hole works perfectly well for them which is why this coronavirus was the most perfect weapon.  

Mostly everyone also loves pointing the finger of blame at somebody else to alleviate personal responsibility.  

It just disgusts me how most people are.

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by amaysngrace

[carhill]

Other than normal respirator use in my work, life has proceeded as normal other than the obvious notice of some businesses being shut down and watching with increasing curiosity the ebb and flow of grocery items on Amazon.

This will be my fourth pandemic. The first, which CDC says killed 116,000 in the US, I was exposed to by proxy, in utero, to H2N2. Watching Microbe TV and listening to Dr. Salk's interviews in the 50's when he was developing the polio vaccine shed light on that one nuance of exposure to microbes.

Later, the H3N2 pandemic hit in 1968-70 period a very active one for myself as a young person. I don't remember any activities curtailed or any significant financial reverses. I was already in the economy in a small way, with two newspaper routes, so had a lot of social contact besides school and sports. Nothing. Yes people got sick. CDC says about 100,000 people died in the US during that 2-3 year period.

The last one was in 2009, (H1N1)pdm09, and that was an interesting time too, as I was care managing for an 88yo in a SNF, such facilities evidently being a real issue in the current situation. To my knowledge, mom never got sick, at least sick enough to stop the demented yelling, and I didn't get sick either and was exposed routinely to staff and patients at the nursing home plus all my customers/friends and those of my wife. The economy was a mess at the time but not from the pandemic. Don't recall any shutdowns or PPE. I wore a respirator in the shop working with hazardous materials and while welding but that was normal. CDC says 12,469 deaths (range: 8868-18,306) occurred in the US from that pandemic, a high percentage in the over 65 age group.

Since we're swimming in microbes (watch that Columbia University lecture series for more info on virology) and folks like myself have gone decades being exposed to all kinds of stuff, and the vast majority of humans like myself live through it, somewhere there needs to be a balance of human interaction, the common good and personal freedom and self-determination.

Since this all happened, I still reach out a hand wrinkled by decades in industry to firmly shake the hand of any customer through the gate and save for one somewhat twitchy guy from the Bay Area, all have followed decade's old custom for doing business. Didn't bleach their cash, didn't shower them in disinfectant, didn't throw parts at them, nothing outside of usual and customary and didn't know any of them from Job. Just humans, like myself. Some talked about the virus, one who shook my hand said he as a cousin who's working in the Covid-19 ward at a local hospital and apparently she's still doing OK. The one customer whose whole family was exposed has recovered without incident, as is typical for a flu virus, his son who brought it back from Spain never got sick. Life goes on. Good luck in your choices and god be with you.

[CaliforniaGirl]

3 hours ago, Redhead14 said:

Once things really loosen up, people will stop wearing masks as well.  Some are already around here and/or weren't abiding by the masks rules.  So, it's not a personal decision for us anymore.  If the "personal decision" of others is to not abide by the guidelines and gather and not wear masks, etc., they are removing/at least limiting our (the higher risk people) ability to move about freely in the world they are limiting our rights and it's no longer a personal decision.  They are making the decision for us.   I think there should be a a law that requires face masks at least to try to at least minimize the risks best as we can.  I've said this before, I consider anyone who isn't wearing a mask to be a weapon, a threat to me if they try to approach me and I will treat them as such.  There have already been some serious threats and harm has come to some people who are wearing masks even.  And, there have been store clerks who have been attacked for trying to enforce their store policies about wearing masks.  Not everyone thinks it's a "personal decision".  They are trying to impose the disease on others because of their righteous indignation regarding government "control" over something that is not difficult or time-consuming or much of an imposition at all. 

It's not like they are being asked to wear hazmat suits and go through decontamination booths each time they go out and about for crying out loud. 

This is what is happening in my town.

Someone on one of my town pages posted a b*tch and whine about how we're all just letting local businesses die, how come we're not all buying from the local restaurants and so on. (A lot of them are pickup only. Not delivery.)

I got brave and calmly - and I do mean calmly, LOL, zero drama - mentioned that I had walked town this weekend, almost nobody had a mask on, and people were grouped eating at tables in front of the eateries I would have liked to have gone into, and they were in front of the entrances. I (again  just really calmly, to the point, no emotion) mentioned that I can not expose myself like that because my MIL is almost 80 and has leukemia. And I buy her groceries for her. I leave them on the porch but I never know how careful she's being after she handles the bags, etc. so I just can't risk bringing the infection to her. And I apologized and said I would otherwise help in any way I could but this was something I and probably other people with compromised family members coudn't do.

Something to that effect...it was shorter than that but that was the gist.

A couple people on the FB page so far already have put an "LOL" emoji in response. To me not wanting Mom to die. The good Christians of my town..."LOL!!!!"

I already told my husband: for now...let's just not go there. Just not for the time being. We can walk somewhere else. I can't know my own neighbors this way. I came home seeing that and literally cried. And after people on FB laughed about me apparently being a snowflake about my MIL being at risk to die from this disease if I'm exposed ("snowflake" is their favorite expression over there...these armchair panickers who call the police every time a teenager rides his skateboard too loudly) it's the last straw, I don't want to know my own neighbors that way. I don't want to have to hate them so I just can't be near them anymore. I hate this so much. I hate that this ever happened. I never wanted to know that I lived right near people who would rather "laugh out loud!" about people having cancer because that would relax other readers into voting the "right way." And that's what it is.

I can not believe what has happened to...us.

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[carhill]

One week makes a bunch of difference. Drove into town (CA) today to go to the post office and noticed a lot more vehicles out, the vast majority of businesses open and saw only one man wearing a mask, a young-ish Mexican guy. Not an urban area but was shut down pretty hard during the SIP period. Parking lots are still light on cars and the Walgreens is still closed but I noticed even the pizza parlors had supply trucks backed up to them. Looks like things are opening up.

Some folks depending on what they offer to the buying public, may even experience an abnormal surge in business as a segment of the population comes into a cash windfall from the Federal supplement to the state's unemployment program. For anyone qualifying/certifying, even at minimal levels, that works out to 2400/mo, until I believe the July 25 benefit period. I also noted in a letter I received today from EDD that beneficiaries aren't required to actively look for work during this period, however must notify on their certification if work resumes/is found. For some people who certified back to March 1 and are still backlogged in the system, that can push a cash injection of into five figures. No doubt some will go on a spending spree which will be helpful for businesses restarting.

 

[sothereiwas]

9 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

But how many people in the U.S. have some pre-existing medical condition?

That's true. All I'm saying is (1) they know who they are for the most part and (2) it's not old age as such so much. People in excellent health don't seem to be nearly as at risk. 

[CaliforniaGirl]

11 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

That's true. All I'm saying is (1) they know who they are for the most part and (2) it's not old age as such so much. People in excellent health don't seem to be nearly as at risk. 

The CDC notes that close to 50% of the U.S. has some chronic or previous medical condition, what does it matter that "they" know who "they" are? That is a whole lot of people. 

Even simply getting old is a risk factor (yes, it's still there because it can be independent of pre-existing health issues), as we all know. I'm guessing you have nobody in your family who has that particular issue?

Or have they had a pretty good run and anyway, it doesn't matter because it wouldn't be you?

Are you aware that many of us are worried not for ourselves but *for others*?

Edited May 18, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[sothereiwas]

6 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

Or have they had a pretty good run and anyway, it doesn't matter because it wouldn't be you?

That's not a very good example of "courtesy and respect" IMO. 

As to your question, I actually moved from where I was to where I am now, sold homes, bought a home, changed jobs, and so on with the singular purpose of being near my elderly parents. They are not in perfect health, and yes I worry. I'm here and I, along with my siblings, work to facilitate their ability to isolate themselves. We miss seeing them, but we would really rather they not die any sooner than they have to. I also have a few aged uncles and aunties in the area who I also help with getting the things they need, as well as an older cousin with health issues of her own. That's what family does. We worry about and help each other. 

I simply don't believe triggering a new great depression is in their best interests.  

[CaliforniaGirl]

4 hours ago, Redhead14 said:

Watch out for the people who think its just "too bad" and are willing to sacrifice you and your ability to move about the country freely by refusing to do minimal things like taking 2 seconds to put on a mask or stay a few feet back . . . be well.  Prayers for you and yours.

This.

 I mean if they really were "exercising freedom!!!" and "refusing to live in fear!!!" while gambling just their own health I'd say have at it, go lick a bus station sign, I'm not your mama.

But that's really not the way this all works.

But can not understand that someone wouldn't be worried about possibly killing someone else. That's what actually keeps me up nights. I.don't really think I'll die or that my kids will die. But my in-laws easily could. *I* could kill them, by saying I "have my rights." I could kill. someone else's parents. It baby with asthma or kidney disease.

It's such an awful thought. Nothing is 100% foolproof but if I can take any reasonable measures, even if they don't make me feel very comfortable, I'm going to.

Edited May 18, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[CaliforniaGirl]

8 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

That's not a very good example of "courtesy and respect" IMO. 

As to your question, I actually moved from where I was to where I am now, sold homes, bought a home, changed jobs, and so on with the singular purpose of being near my elderly parents. They are not in perfect health, and yes I worry. I'm here and I, along with my siblings, work to facilitate their ability to isolate themselves. We miss seeing them, but we would really rather they not die any sooner than they have to. I also have a few aged uncles and aunties in the area who I also help with getting the things they need, as well as an older cousin with health issues of her own. That's what family does. We worry about and help each other. 

I simply don't believe triggering a new great depression is in their best interests.  

You see now, this is one thing I don't understand. If we do not put safety measures in place and potentially big numbers of people die all in a very short span of time, how would that not also trigger massive financial devastation? Obviously businesses would be falling apart with the losses of executives, employees, etc. I feel as though deciding that simply reopening businesses indicates just a lack of belief that this pandemic actually is harming and in some pretty large numbers already, just in the five months that we've officially been counting it, killing people. And I wonder if that is the larger problem here, because otherwise, logic should show that putting people back together only to have them die wouldn't bring the economy back either.

Edited May 18, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl

[CaliforniaGirl]

I also think we should keep in mind, when comparing numbers to last pandemics, that for this one the numbers are only as of this year - not in 2019 - and even then, we didn't have many tests until very recently. We're comparing this sometimes pandemics over 12 or more documented months.

[NuevoYorko]

10 hours ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

But how many people in the U.S. have some pre-existing medical condition? Millions of people have asthma (see "breathing problems" on the list), millions have dementia, millions have or have had cancer, millions have heart disease and so on.

 Not to mention the massive numbers of people who are walking around (and likely posting here) who have undetected / undiagnosed health issues.  People often don't know they have arterial diseases until they end up with a stroke, aneurism  or heart attack.  "Silent" heart attacks are not uncommon and are only detected when the person undergoes a full heart workup at some point.  An EKG is not part of a general physical exam.   Diabetes exists for quite a long time within a body before symptoms start to reveal themselves.  How long is a person harboring cancer before it's discovered?  "Walking pneumonia" is undiagnosed more often than it is not and "bronchitis" can be experienced as a chest cold when it's actually acute.  We don't go to the doctor for a chest cold.
" 

[amaysngrace]

Relax.  It’s all just the natural selective order of things.  

We can’t save everyone, nor should we. 

[CaliforniaGirl]

4 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

Relax.  It’s all just the natural selective order of things.  

We can’t save everyone, nor should we. 

I don't fully believe that. If we all followed the natural selective order of things many of us would already be long dead or would not have been been born.

We have medicine and use medicine. Including preventive medicine and preventive measures and we're generally all glad to use nearly all of them.

[sothereiwas]

17 minutes ago, CaliforniaGirl said:

If we do not put safety measures in place and potentially big numbers of people die all in a very short span of time

Who's promoting that? Find them, and go argue with them. 

 

10 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

Relax.  It’s all just the natural selective order of things.  

We can’t save everyone, nor should we. 

I think we should try, or at least help them save themselves. We're civilized after all. 

[NuevoYorko]

5 minutes ago, amaysngrace said:

Relax.  It’s all just the natural selective order of things.  

We can’t save everyone, nor should we. 

Following preventative measures that can extend the lives of millions of people is hardly "saving everyone." 

Many of you seem to agree that old people or those who are not perfectly healthy have no value in this fine land.  They're definitely less useful at feeding the rich, which appears to be the main criteria for the privilege of  being alive.  This perspective will also free us from useless annoyances like medicine,  science, end of life care, social security etc.  If you're not keeping the wheels of the economy churning, please step aside and croak.  Survival of the fittest, american style.  

[amaysngrace]

5 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

I think we should try, or at least help them save themselves. We're civilized after all. 

Well yeah, we should try to stop the suffering at least.  But if people aren’t willing to take care of themselves then why is it our job to?

[CaliforniaGirl]

8 minutes ago, sothereiwas said:

Who's promoting that? Find them, and go argue with them. 

 

I think we should try, or at least help them save themselves. We're civilized after all. 

1. No one is promoting it; everyone who can not even observe very slightly relaxed recommendations without tossing their masks, gathering in groups, and touching their eyes and mouths is actively demonstrating it. Already. "I can be careful by myself" is already showing itself coast to coast to be a fail. Safety measures will be basically nill at that point.

2. Yes. Me too. It was an answer to a poster who said we should allow for nature to self-select.

Edited May 18, 2020 by CaliforniaGirl