Piddy Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 2 hours ago, sothereiwas said: There are wet markets and wet markets. In the places I've been, a wet market was just a market devoted to selling meat. It wasn't primarily a slaughterhouse. Probably was just named such for historical reasons. Open, sloppy, public slaughterhouses just seem like a foolish idea in the 21st century. My wife's boss goes to China on business all the time. Many of these places are very unsanitary. 1
sothereiwas Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, Piddy said: My wife's boss goes to China on business all the time. Many of these places are very unsanitary. Many are. Not most IME though, and sanitation as such isn't the issue here, it's live animals and open slaughter coupled with hit or miss sanitation. Just enforcing some basic safety around butchering would probably do it. The idea of a meat market is handy.
Piddy Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, sothereiwas said: Many are. Not most IME though, and sanitation as such isn't the issue here, it's live animals and open slaughter coupled with hit or miss sanitation. Just enforcing some basic safety around butchering would probably do it. The idea of a meat market is handy. The population of China is so huge that there's not enough food basically, so they don't waste any part of an animal. And they eat things we would never consider eating. And yes sanitation is a problem in many of these wet markets.
elaine567 Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 it is like many of these unsavoury practices. based on traditions designed to provide fresh meat, before refrigeration was available. Now we are in 2020 and fridges are everywhere and cheap it is barbaric to have wild and domestic animals kept in dreadful conditions and slaughtered by untrained people in markets.
Piddy Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, elaine567 said: it is like many of these unsavoury practices. based on traditions designed to provide fresh meat, before refrigeration was available. Now we are in 2020 and fridges are everywhere and cheap it is barbaric to have wild and domestic animals kept in dreadful conditions and slaughtered by untrained people in markets. That's all fine and good providing they have access to electricity. Not sure that's the case in some of these impoverished areas. Some of these places are very, very poor.
sothereiwas Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 13 minutes ago, elaine567 said: t is like many of these unsavoury practices. based on traditions designed to provide fresh meat, before refrigeration was available. Chillers are not always available, believe it or not, but soap and water sure are.
sothereiwas Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 20 minutes ago, Piddy said: yes sanitation is a problem in many of these wet markets. Yes, however sanitation issues alone won't cause an animal borne virus to jump to a person. It will cause other issues but I was addressing the source of the plague issue, which was aided by poor sanitation, but requires a few other things before the transfer from reservoir to human happens.
elaine567 Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 If wild animals like bats were left alone in their own habitats then any viruses they may harbour, would not cross the species barrier causing human disease. Bats never really stuck me as being particularly "clean" animals anyway. 3
sothereiwas Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 2 hours ago, elaine567 said: Bats never really stuck me as being particularly "clean" animals anyway. I dunno. When I was in SEA a bit one of the things I did was to go into close contact with some "flying foxes" which are actually really big (for a bat) fruit eating bats. They were actually pretty little furry animals with cute little faces who would tolerate being handled pretty well. Really soft fur and no bad smell to the little guys, big pretty eyes. They really did resemble finely featured foxes a lot. If one got annoyed it would nip at you but either they were not motivated or strong jawed enough to break skin with their needle sharp teeth. I don't understand eating them - they're so very light, they can't have much meat to them.
elaine567 Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 (edited) I meant the ones living in dusty dank caves with floors filled with their own faeces. But as for cuteness yes they are lovely little things. They are all protected, by law here, no-one is allowed to eat them. We don't have anything as big or as exotic as flying foxes. Edited May 8, 2020 by elaine567 1
Ellener Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 On 4/20/2020 at 4:01 PM, nospam99 said: Governor/King Cuomo (NY) mandated masks statewide unless people can keep the six foot distance. Without getting into arguments about whether masks are effective (I think not) and whether the entirety of the state is at risk (again I think not though people who work or worked specifically IN NYC make the rest of the state look that way to outsiders), I observe that some 'essential businesses' are refusing to serve maskless customers while others .... just don't care and it's 'business as usual'. That's the same here, face coverings are mandated but fines etc will not be imposed and it's up to the individual business managers to decide whether to refuse service. All businesses are requesting people wear face coverings, social distance, hand wash and stay home if sick. Some of the 'second wave of reopening' businesses have additional rules such as one customer at a time and by appointment only.
sothereiwas Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, elaine567 said: We don't have anything as big or as exotic as flying foxes. It's really odd to see them flying over near sunset, they are clearly big and clearly not birds. Still not eating them. From what a friend of mine has told me a lot of the really weird stuff in the Chinese wet markets isn't just strictly about food, a lot of iot has to do with traditional Chinese "medicine" requiring some bizzare ingredients. 1
elaine567 Posted May 8, 2020 Posted May 8, 2020 Chinese medicine and their "industry" centred around animal products are a great danger to the world's wildlife. These resources are finite. Sad.
Author gaius Posted May 9, 2020 Author Posted May 9, 2020 11 hours ago, schlumpy said: That would be a consideration Basil if the New York Governor had not presented convincing statistics that the majority of deaths from the virus in his state were from the group that stayed at home. I'm not sure how to interpret it. New York with it's subway system is much different then the rest of the country especially Ohio where I live. Commonsense says the stay-at-home group should have lower fatalities so there has to be a factor that explains that but it has not be presented. The current mortality numbers for Sweden are not much above the US numbers. That also suggests that the stay-at-home solution was not as effective as presented. Real lockdowns and stay at home orders cured China of the virus in a good 2-3 months flat. In New York the stay at home group is still going out and being socially active. So it's not a real lockdown. Their behavior isn't that different from Sweden actually. People also have to keep in mind that the virus isn't a Meritocracy. Whether you or your community feels the effects of the virus, and how bad those effects are, is not solely dependent on what you do every day and what lockdown measures are put into place. Italy likely suffered the fate it did because of the actions of one person. Go back and strangle him in his crib and the same country doing the same thing might have had a much different outcome. And the same thing goes for sothereiwas and his community. Maybe that guy will show up in his neighborhood, maybe he won't. But if he doesn't that doesn't mean there's no risk or that we don't have a serious problem on our hands.
chillii Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 Read today you guys have 1.3mil cases so yep l'd say they have a serious problem on their hands and staying home isn't a bad idea.
Philosopher Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 4 hours ago, gaius said: Real lockdowns and stay at home orders cured China of the virus in a good 2-3 months flat. In New York the stay at home group is still going out and being socially active. So it's not a real lockdown. Their behavior isn't that different from Sweden actually. People also have to keep in mind that the virus isn't a Meritocracy. Whether you or your community feels the effects of the virus, and how bad those effects are, is not solely dependent on what you do every day and what lockdown measures are put into place. Italy likely suffered the fate it did because of the actions of one person. Go back and strangle him in his crib and the same country doing the same thing might have had a much different outcome. And the same thing goes for sothereiwas and his community. Maybe that guy will show up in his neighborhood, maybe he won't. But if he doesn't that doesn't mean there's no risk or that we don't have a serious problem on our hands. Wikipedia does have a whole article on people spreading infections very widely. The article mentions that one person did spread it to loads of others in South Korea and New York City, so it may be that New York City to some extent got unlucky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superspreader#COVID-19_outbreak_2019 Added to that I reckon a lot of the virus spread is due to cultural and social factors. Japan for example still has only a few cases for their population despite their government not ordering a lockdown. When I was there I noticed that the Japanese frequently wore face masks and hand sanitiser was frequently found in the entrances to shops and restaurants. In Sweden, where the outbreak is not as bad as the UK, France, Spain or Italy despite no lockdown, half of households are single person households and working from home is common. 1
schlumpy Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 7 hours ago, gaius said: Real lockdowns and stay at home orders cured China of the virus in a good 2-3 months flat. In New York the stay at home group is still going out and being socially active. So it's not a real lockdown. Their behavior isn't that different from Sweden actually. People also have to keep in mind that the virus isn't a Meritocracy. Whether you or your community feels the effects of the virus, and how bad those effects are, is not solely dependent on what you do every day and what lockdown measures are put into place. Italy likely suffered the fate it did because of the actions of one person. Go back and strangle him in his crib and the same country doing the same thing might have had a much different outcome. And the same thing goes for sothereiwas and his community. Maybe that guy will show up in his neighborhood, maybe he won't. But if he doesn't that doesn't mean there's no risk or that we don't have a serious problem on our hands. I don't disagree with what you said but if the outcome to this pandemic is as dependent on random happenings as you have stressed then what good is any plan to stop it? Each plans chances of failure or success would be entirely dependent upon some unknown and random variable. What if the random variable is that Asians are genetically resistant to the Corona virus unlike their European counterparts? The Chinese weld them into their apartments and feed them with a crane from their balconies. Pandemic over and everyone tries the Chinese way except that they don't have the natural immunity. Different outcome gets attributed to other various causes such as a lack of PPE, incompetence, people sneaking out to party, etc.... All the data is skewed by a authoritarian government that wants to look good, so it's years in the future before one of their medical researchers avoids suddenly disappearing and escapes to the west to let the world know. I have not come to a place in my head where I accept the Chinese numbers and statistics. For the moment, I assume they are lying as do all good communist nations when it's in their interest to do so. 1
elaine567 Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 (edited) I don't think viruses are random they are highly predictable. The bit that is random is human Complete lock down, with removal of infected individuals to hospital/quarantine, no chance for virus to spread to uninfected humans. Virus eventually dies out as the are no new hosts available to it. All uninfected people have been shielded, contact to other human beings is minimal or absent. There is nowhere left for the virus to go. Spain Italy and France had increasingly tight lock downs and now the figures are reducing but now they are easing, the virus may well re-surge again as it finds new victims to infect. Partial lockdowns let infected people wander about willy nilly, so the virus keeps circulating, lots of people die but In the West total shutdown would not be tolerated and people dying is the price we pay. 1 hour ago, schlumpy said: What if the random variable is that Asians are genetically resistant to the Corona virus That is not borne out by a recent study in the UK where BAME people all have increased risk of being severely affected or dying. The Chinese IMO treated the virus like a virus, the West played around and are still playing around. Edited May 9, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator corrected quote
Art_Critic Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 34 minutes ago, elaine567 said: The Chinese IMO treated the virus like a virus, the West played around and are still playing around. Just bringing this to light as it is part of history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu Quote One of the few regions of the world seemingly less affected by the 1918 flu pandemic was China, where several studies have documented a comparatively mild flu season in 1918 (although this is disputed due to lack of data during the country's Warlord Period (see Around the globe).[28][29][30] This has led to speculation that the 1918 flu pandemic originated in China,[30][29][31][32] as the lower rates of flu mortality may be explained by the Chinese population's previously acquired immunity to the flu virus.[33][30][29] Just saying, there might actually be a scientific reason rather than to blame Trump
sothereiwas Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 37 minutes ago, elaine567 said: Virus eventually dies out as the are no new hosts available to it. Name one time this has ever worked. This isn't a hope that's based in reality.
Art_Critic Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, elaine567 said: SARS - contained then disappeared. Did it ? Covid-19 is SARS-CoV-2, it is a new disease but... SARS-CoV-2 is closely related to the original SARS-CoV Do they already have a some immunity to SARS-Cov-2 because of SARS-CoV ? who knows.. maybe that is why there numbers look so good, SARS-CoV never really got to the USA in any decent quantity.. Edited May 9, 2020 by Art_Critic
elaine567 Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 (edited) SARS although more serious with a higher fatality rate was not nearly so transmissable as this coronavirus. Only 8000 cases worldwide. Quote The SARS outbreak, which reached 29 countries, was ultimately contained using traditional public health measures, such as testing, isolating patients and screening people at airports and other places where they might spread the virus, Gostin said. The strategy is simple: If sick people can be stopped from infecting healthy people, the disease will eventually die off. But limiting the current outbreak with these tried-and-true public health strategies has proved harder now because of the sheer number of cases, Gostin said. I have never heard anyone suggest that there may be some crossover immunity Edited May 9, 2020 by elaine567 spacing
Art_Critic Posted May 9, 2020 Posted May 9, 2020 1 minute ago, elaine567 said: I have never heard anyone suggest that there may be some crossover immunity Isn't that what we are discussing right now ?
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