Novel Coronavirus COVID-19

[gaius]

1 hour ago, mark clemson said:

Florida, Georgia, and Lousiana screwed themselves IMO. It's only in "liberal" areas/blue states, it won't affect us "real" Christians, we can party at the beach and throw Mardi Gras, social distancing is too much "hassle", let's throw some barbeque parties...

Unrealistic beliefs and denial. They could have learned a lot after the NYC screw ups but they didn't. Duh.There's a whole subculture in the US now fixated on denying science whenever it suits their pre-existing beliefs and/or convenience. Too bad it bites everyone in the *ss not just them. I suspect this won't be the last time, either.

Disclaimer to medical "chat" above: I'm a layperson.

New Orleans is about as blue as it gets and many of the kids on the beaches in Florida during spring break were college kids, many from liberal families.

[mark clemson]

To be clear, I'm NOT saying that being conservative in and of itself a cause of denial. Plenty of conservatives know how to use their brains just fine. Many doctors for instance. There are multiple psychological/cultural factors at play.

I would point out that: Louisiana is part of the bible belt, kids are stupid everywhere, and FL's governor could have shut it all down but chose not to. Georgia's governor just set social distancing measures in place today. He's had plenty of time to let all this sink in. Oklahoma's governor is still holding out against it. If NY's governor is guilty of manslaughter (on a massive scale) due to incompetence, these guys are guilty of murder IMO.

If someone really DOESN'T think that there's a subculture of people in the US who deny scientific evidence when it's convenient or contradicts their existing beliefs, IMO they're pretty frickin clueless and should probably pay more attention to what's going on around them.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

On 4/1/2020 at 4:05 PM, Libby1 said:

Commentary about how this virus behaves is probably best left to those who are actual experts in virus transmission.  It sounds as though researchers are still trying to get to grips with it, and the question of whether we ought to be concerned about airborne transmission is clearly a contentious topic among experts.  I think people who are behaving as though transmission can be airborne, are probably being sensibly cautious - given the lack of expert consensus about the nature of this virus.  

who-reviews-available-evidence-on-coronavirus-transmission-through-air

 

That is absurd.   Of course it can be "transmitted through air".    That was never at issue.   (it isn't like AIDS, which runs and hides when encountering air)

 

PEOPLE WOULD BE DROPPING like blades of grass behind a lawnmower IF this virus were airborne, such as in the way that ice fog  is airborne.

 

you would SEE the dead bodies all over the streets in your little part of the world.  (you wouldn't need to await autopsies...  because your favorite street gangs can't kill them THAT fast)

(25 people drop dead at a nursing home in March of 2020...  and some people think we need to await autopsies to figure out what killed them??????????)

You wouldn't need to AWAIT the stating of THE OBVIOUS from the W.H.O. if Covid were an airborne entity.

 

God, no wonder this society has panicked beyond belief.

[greymatter]

12 minutes ago, SincereOnlineGuy said:

 

That is absurd.   Of course it can be "transmitted through air".    That was never at issue.   (it isn't like AIDS, which runs and hides when encountering air)

 

 

It's HIV that you meant to say, not AIDS. 

Edited April 3, 2020 by greymatter
quote fix

[chillii]

Really interesting this morning l heard some virus expert on the radio at work.  He said really this has been happening for hundreds or years said it's nothing new it's just that now as l was saying because the worlds so transient where it use to be mainly one country or area this one can effect the whole world. He said there are other big differences with this one too and it seems stronger than they use to be . Said it's basically just a new germ and what usually happens is we both in time just get use to each other and eventually learn to live together . He said most of the others still exists but we developed immunity over time. Says the best hope with this one though is a vaccine , pretty well what l've thought too, not that l know anything about these things but l've just thought that writing's been on the wall for a month or so now. Butttttt , he also thought it could possibly just burn itself out , said some of them have before. 

l was amazed at how casual he sounded talking about it though , it was sort of reassuring really that he wasn't all panic and doom day . l know , there's plenty of experts and theories and they differ , just thought it was interesting though and man , he's casualness about it was damn nice for a change too.

[jah526]

4 hours ago, mark clemson said:

To be clear, I'm NOT saying that being conservative in and of itself a cause of denial. Plenty of conservatives know how to use their brains just fine. Many doctors for instance. There are multiple psychological/cultural factors at play.

I would point out that: Louisiana is part of the bible belt, kids are stupid everywhere, and FL's governor could have shut it all down but chose not to. Georgia's governor just set social distancing measures in place today. He's had plenty of time to let all this sink in. Oklahoma's governor is still holding out against it. If NY's governor is guilty of manslaughter (on a massive scale) due to incompetence, these guys are guilty of murder IMO.

If someone really DOESN'T think that there's a subculture of people in the US who deny scientific evidence when it's convenient or contradicts their existing beliefs, IMO they're pretty frickin clueless and should probably pay more attention to what's going on around them.

I have a good friend who is from OK. He was very worried his mom was going to go ahead and attend church service this past week after Trump said the thing about "everyone in church by Easter". He said he thought she would believe God would protect her (as many do). Fortunately, Trump kind of reversed course after that. Friend's mom attended a virtual service and all was well. But still... words coming out of the mouths of people in power have an impact. 

Yeah, when all is said and done, if this is war, then some of these people need to be tried as war criminals.

[justwhoiam]

7 hours ago, Azincourt said:

I think the entire world is on a trajectory that mimics Italy.

World Trend of Deaths from Covid 19

(starting from 1st death in Italy)

The World's Most Visited Countries

Rank    Country    International Visitors (millions)
1    France                      89
2    Spain                        83
3    United States          80
4    China                        63
5    Italy                           62
6    Turkey                       46
7    Mexico                      41
8    Germany                   39
9    Thailand                   38
10    United Kingdom    36

[chillii]

 

Ps , obviously his casualness wasn't about what's happening all over the world and no disrespect intended on that front, but of the actual virus itself.

[justwhoiam]

Among tested people, asymptomatic infections seem to be max 3% according to the latest studies, because - even if initially cases are considered as asymptomatic - later on most people develop some symptoms.

[Libby1]

4 hours ago, SincereOnlineGuy said:

 

That is absurd.   Of course it can be "transmitted through air".    That was never at issue.   (it isn't like AIDS, which runs and hides when encountering air)

 

PEOPLE WOULD BE DROPPING like blades of grass behind a lawnmower IF this virus were airborne, such as in the way that ice fog  is airborne.

 

you would SEE the dead bodies all over the streets in your little part of the world.  (you wouldn't need to await autopsies...  because your favorite street gangs can't kill them THAT fast)

(25 people drop dead at a nursing home in March of 2020...  and some people think we need to await autopsies to figure out what killed them??????????)

You wouldn't need to AWAIT the stating of THE OBVIOUS from the W.H.O. if Covid were an airborne entity.

 

God, no wonder this society has panicked beyond belief.

Your posts would be far clearer if you could construct them without the unnecessary histrionics and sarcasm.  It seems that you're claiming that this virus is not airborne - and that if it were, bodies would be dropping like flies.  Since the term "transmitted by air" has upset you so much (not that it seems to take much to do that) I'll stick with the term airborne.  You are informing everybody here that the virus is not airborne and that it's ridiculous to imagine that it is airborne.  For the avoidance of doubt, an airborne virus would mean that it could spread by small particles from exhaled air - rather than simply by large droplets from coughs and sneezes.

The question of whether this virus is airborne is still under examination.  Medical experts have not reached agreement.  A bit more reading up on this and a bit less wholly uninformed and angry opining would, I'm sure, result in your posts being far more thoughtful, considered and less histrionic sounding.

Edited April 3, 2020 by Libby1

[Ellener]

6 hours ago, mark clemson said:

subculture of people in the US who deny scientific evidence when it's convenient or contradicts their existing beliefs

I think you're right,  but also people say a lot of things in 2020 for effect, there are so many media and social media 'voices' competing it's become a way to get instant attention- say something stupid or inapproriate, and provoke a reaction..

[Libby1]

19 minutes ago, Ellener said:

I think you're right,  but also people say a lot of things in 2020 for effect, there are so many media and social media 'voices' competing it's become a way to get instant attention- say something stupid or inapproriate, and provoke a reaction..

I think it's probably not helped by the lack of complete knowledge about this virus.  There's always this temptation for people to give definitive advice and opinions...so for instance, WHO has been advocating against the public wearing masks on the basis that it doesn't think this virus is airborne, but some scientists believe it may be airborne.  Understandably people are demanding some certainty in the advice and info they get about this virus, but those who would be best positioned to give that advice are still researching it.

This is, I think, where the public and experts often come into conflict.  People like to have answers and certainty, and when the experts can't give them that (eg because they don't yet have enough information) then they'll go looking for those answers and certainty elsewhere.  Often with not very great consequences.

[Ellener]

1 hour ago, Libby1 said:

People like to have answers and certainty

One of the big things about the current situation is the reminder that so much of what we take for granted is precarious or uncertain. Medicine is largely an inexact science and we see when analysing that closely just how differently human bodies react and why it's impossible to 100 % predict or 'fix' everyone. 

People come up with their own ways of coping in a crisis, and there's anxiety when other people don't respond as we want them to and in our own time frame.

Humans don't tend to give each other enough space to adapt or change positions either, there's a sense of embarrassment or shame or excess pride about being 'right' or 'wrong', so then people argue and feel the need to stick to a position inflexibly. We have seen this a lot in politics in the US in recent years, an inability to come together and move forward and create solutions. Maybe the pandemic crisis will break those deadlocks....or maybe people will just find other things to argue ad infinitum?! Not much useful tends to come from ranting or beleaguering a point but there's clearly a reason we humans do it...since we all do to some extent. Like an emotional 'safety' valve.

And another thing...

 

[chillii]

You'd be an idiot not to ware one if you have , just bc of doubting it's airborn. Mind you , l heard only if you can re' sanitize it or else ware a new one next time , a used mask may actually make things worse otherwise . But no one's really too sure of anything yet so who in their right mind wouldn't assume it's bloody airborn it's no brainer anyway. lt's gonna travel and of course coughing sneezing breathing talking are all gonna send it out there how far is just silly nitpicking, 1/2 a brain is enough to tell us to just stay the fk back from people right now.

[Libby1]

2 minutes ago, Ellener said:

Humans don't tend to give each other enough space to adapt or change positions either, there's a sense of embarrassment or shame or excess pride about being 'right' or 'wrong', so then people argue and feel the need to stick to a position inflexibly. We have seen this a lot in politics in the US in recent years, an inability to come together and move forward and create solutions. Maybe the pandemic crisis will break those deadlocks....or maybe people will just find other things to argue ad infinitum?! Not much useful tends to come from ranting or beleaguering a point but there's clearly a reason we humans do it...since we all do to some extent. Like an emotional 'safety' valve.

And another thing...

 

In this situation, I would think most people know that they're working with incomplete information...so the choice becomes one of whether to a) take precautions that would in ordinary times seem extreme and paranoid (in case the virus is airborne) or to assume that everybody's overreacting and behave accordingly.

For me, the answer to that is easy and involves a).  Since we've been put on lockdown, there's plenty of time to implement anti-viral measures that would ordinarily seem over the top (like sanitising everything before it comes into the house, spraying shoes and jacket and leaving them outside etc).  I'm proceeding on the assumption that this virus is airborne.  It may well not be, but in the absence of a definitive answer I'd rather be cautious.  I think the social distancing advice we're getting is along the same lines. We're treading this difficult balance between protecting ourselves and thinking of others - eg not buying up more than we need of certain items, checking that potentially vulnerable or isolated people are okay etc (even if we now have to do that at some distance).

 

[Libby1]

10 minutes ago, chillii said:

You'd be an idiot not to ware one if you have , just bc of doubting it's airborn. Mind you , l heard only if you can re' sanitize it or else ware a new one next time , a used mask may actually make things worse otherwise . But no one's really too sure of anything yet so who in their right mind wouldn't assume it's bloody airborn it's no brainer anyway. lt's gonna travel and of course coughing sneezing breathing talking are all gonna send it out there how far is just silly nitpicking, 1/2 a brain is enough to tell us to just stay the fk back from people right now.

There's increasing info out there about how to sterilise masks.  Especially as medical staff are having to do this now.  But yeah, I agree with you that it's sensible to act as though this virus is airborne - regardless of what arguments are going on about that in scientific circles.  Most of us are probably on lockdown by now anyway, so we have no shortage of time to read up on ways to give ourselves greater protection in the event that it is airborne.

[2BGoodAgain]

On 3/31/2020 at 12:59 PM, elaine567 said:

Animal to human happens, but animal to "human to human" is a lot rarer.

SARS, MERS, to name a few in last 20 years?

[elaine567]

1 minute ago, 2BGoodAgain said:

SARS, MERS, to name a few in last 20 years?

As I said a lot rarer.
Considering the number of viruses out there the ones that cross over and cause serious human-human infections are few and far between

[Azincourt]

7 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

As I said a lot rarer.
Considering the number of viruses out there the ones that cross over and cause serious human-human infections are few and far between

And then there's the ones we never hear about.

[2BGoodAgain]

37 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

As I said a lot rarer.
Considering the number of viruses out there the ones that cross over and cause serious human-human infections are few and far between

few and far between is a relative term, i realize.

when i think few and far between, i'm thinking something like the measles or the black plague...

MERS, SARS... all within 20 years and from the same region... so that's how i correlate that to how the chinese gov't tried to cover up as the prime motivator vs any concern about a health scare that prob was nothing to be concerned about.

[Azincourt]

Didn't the black plague kill like 50% of the European population?

Man, we sure are lucky to be born in the richest nation of the 21th century. As for the rest.. yeah, the Chinese govt. covered up everything that is going on with the virus, starting with making the doctors who gave the world early warnings about the virus, vanish. Yo, don't ever step foot in China, folks. It's a very pretty Country and also a very dangerous one.

[elaine567]

Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS)
Nothing to do with China. Cases were first found in Saudi Arabia.
"Camel flu", but again likely derived from bats.

Edited April 3, 2020 by elaine567

[Ellener]

The village of Eyam in Derbyshire self-isolated during the Bubonc Plague in 1666 and is doing so again now:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-51981858/how-britain-s-plague-village-is-coming-together

[Ellener]

'The White House is expected soon to advise Americans living in coronavirus hotspots to wear cloth masks or scarves in public to help stop the spread of the coronavirus.

President Donald Trump said "I don't think it will be mandatory - if people want to wear them, they can".

Residents of New York, the outbreak's epicentre in the US, have been urged to cover their faces in public, but not to use surgical masks....

The WHO advises that ordinary face masks are only effective if combined with careful hand-washing and social-distancing, and so far it does not recommend them generally for healthy people.

But on Thursday New York mayor Bill de Blasio urged all New Yorkers to cover their faces when outside and near others.

"It could be a scarf. It could be something you create yourself at home. It could be a bandana," he said.

"It doesn't need to be a professional surgical mask. In fact, we don't want you to use the kind of masks that our first responders need." '

 

( BBC today )

Edited April 3, 2020 by Ellener

[chillii]

l agree with anythings gonna help. l often spray paint bit's and pieces at work and for the short stints l paint in usually a few minutes at most just any quick rag cloth stops it all l don't bother with the mask for those and you kind of develop stands that avoid the mist as your spraying for just quick little bits much like distancing but still, spray painting mist easily floats around over 2 and 3 meters inside. But it's similar enough to say being near someone or a few people . lt also makes a huge difference if l just take the peace outside in the open or even just in the workshop doorway is enough which l often do with little bits and pieces and you won't even need a rag over your mouth nose . So if it's outside even just keeping your distance will help a helluva lot , a cloth even more , inside , groceries and stuff, even a cloth mask would be way way better than nothing at all.