Is regaining trust even possible?

[Ami1uwant]

13 hours ago, DazzaMont said:

I written and rewritten this post a few times and have struggled to accurately describe the situation without giving too much away whilst still getting my questions across.  The generic question is how to resolve trust issues after a partner has broken the trust?  The problem is it’s more complicated than that so I’ve just decided to explain it all and have fingers crossed no-one I know is part of this group.

I have a girlfriend although we call ourselves married.  Essentially we live as a married couple.  We were friends with benefits for a few years and have been exclusive for 5 (gf/bf for 3 years / "married" the last 2).  She is bisexual and we have what works for us where she can see women on the side as long as I know all about it prior and have the right of refusal.  There is a line from a song, “I believe trust is more important than monogamy” and we’ve used that as a basis for our relationship. To put it in perspective she has seen maybe 3 women over our time together with one being a long term girlfriend and I have never felt the need to see anyone.

With that history described I’ll now explain the lost trust.

A few months ago she attended an interstate party without me as I had to work.  Basically she cheated with a woman. Now it’s not the sex that is the issue it’s the broken trust, but then it gets a whole lot worse. This happened at the party and her boyfriend was in the room to watch, which then ended up with between 6-10 others in there watching depending on who you ask.  I guess the only saving grace is that the other girl’s boyfriend made sure no-one was filming.

My girlfriend admitted all this to me as soon as she got home.  I got all the excuses about being drunk and stoned etc.  I supposed I have to give some credit at this point as she has not drip fed me at all.  She told me everything that day and after talking to many people to find the truth there has not been a single thing she has left out.  My brother suggests this is a good point and the start of the repair job.

Now quite simply I no longer trust her.  I hate the fact that when she’s out longer than she said she would be that I start questioning what’s going on.  She has admitted fault and is doing what she can to regain my trust but I guess I’m still too angry to be receptive. 

So back to the question. What do we have to do to work this out? What must she do, what must I do?  Can the trust ever be regained? We had such a special thing because we had trust and I want that back.  I am still in love with her and so I want this to work.

 

 

The key key in this to me if I’m understanding it correctly...

 

she told you after she came home that it happened and you didn’t find out on your own.

 

when it comes to cheating I can forgive much more easily in these situations than if I caught it and found out on my own.

 

Here is the thing....why have such a relationship?  Can you slerp with others two or it’s just ok for her?

[ExpatInItaly]

I think you really need to re-consider this relationship. 

Not only did she violate the boundaries of your agreement, she performed for a roomful of people and under the influence of more than one substance. 

She is showing you pretty clearly that she is reckless, untrustworthy and extraordinarily indiscreet. This isn’t the behaviour of someone who values your relationship. She’s too immature and self-serving, and now you and  several others know it. 

[Piddy]

21 hours ago, DazzaMont said:

If it was with a man we wouldn't be having this discussion.  So are you saying that there is no way for her to regain my trust, if i want to stay I just have to accept that 100% trust is gone.  That's a relationship killer.

 

How can you 100% trust her in the future when she's already broken that trust once?   With words?  No, words are cheap.   It's with her behavior going forward.  But you'll always wonder if she's really changed her behavior for good and not break your trust again

Unless you're gullible and naive, which you don't seem to be, you'll always have some doubt.

Here's what I would do if I were in your situation.  I'd limit her girl on girl stuff to just threesomes involving you.  That would be a fair compromise IMO.  That's a win win situation.  The boundary is set.  If not and you continue with just a phone call asking permission, then you'll have no idea what really went on.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Piddy

[kendahke]

23 hours ago, DazzaMont said:

If it was with a man we wouldn't be having this discussion.  So are you saying that there is no way for her to regain my trust, if i want to stay I just have to accept that 100% trust is gone.  That's a relationship killer.

 

Your whole approach was clearly the relationship killer because of the type of person you decided to throw in with.

You have right of first refusal ONLY if you know there's someone to refuse.  "What you don't know about you can't refuse",  is her way of thinking obviously--and that goes to the character of this female.  Being "magnanimous" with the wrong person rather bit you in the butt.

[Atwood]

Trust is a beast we can’t control and it’s usually the little nagging feeling inside us that’s yelling “something isn’t right!” about someone we love, so we keep shoving the feeling down until we can’t ignore it any more. 
 

Only you can decide if trust can be regained or not and the important thing is she needs to be on board with wanting to regain it. In my opinion, she’s the one who broke the trust, so she should be the one whose panicking about getting the trust back. Surely, if you break someone’s trust, any normal and decent person would be guilt-ridden and want to do anything to show they can be trusted. How is she acting? Eating and sleeping okay? 
If you’re the only one who seems to be not fine about the whole thing, that’s a red flag. 
 

If you trust anything, trust your gut. If you know deep down that she’ll want to do something like this again, be kind to yourself and move on. There are so many people out there who are trustworthy and who will be committed to keeping their promises with you. 

[elaine567]

2 hours ago, Piddy said:

I'd limit her girl on girl stuff to just threesomes involving you.  That would be a fair compromise IMO.

It would be a compromise but I doubt it would truly satisfy her bisexual needs.
Just because she is bisexual does not mean she will enjoy threesomes, why would it?
Opening up the marriage usually involves wanting to experience other people sexually.
Dragging the regular bf/gf along for a 3some is probably not what most really want to do.

[Piddy]

36 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

It would be a compromise but I doubt it would truly satisfy her bisexual needs.
Just because she is bisexual does not mean she will enjoy threesomes, why would 

They've had threesomes before.  That's why I suggested it as a boundary.

[elaine567]

2 minutes ago, Piddy said:

They've had threesomes before.  That's why I suggested it as a boundary.

I know  but that doesn't mean she likes them or they would satisfy her need for other women.

[dramallama]

There is nothing about being bisexual that means you can't be monogomous. My best friend was in a woman for over a decade, that ended, now she's been with a man for 5 years. She didn't need to go looking for anything else with anyone else just because she is attracted to people of both genders.

I think your lady has used this as an excuse - in my late teens I was bicurious and cheated on my boyfriend with a woman and somehow justified it to him because it wasn't a man.... it was still wrong though and I was being manipulative to justify bad behaviour.

Either the relationship is open, and you're both free to engage with others (of whatever gender); or it's not. You've got a weird hybrid going on and it's obviously not working.

[Gaeta]

I agree being bi-sexual is not a reason to have an open relationship. Monogamy is monogamy any way you turn it around. The risk of opening the relationship is to expose yourself to developing feelings for someone else along the way. 

My way of handling this would be to break up with her. The trust is gone. If she wants you back then the relationship goes back to full monogamy. 

I also know you allowed this open relationship because you really wanted her in your life. This isn't your thing but by accepting it you gave away all of your power. She told you because she knew you'd forgive her, she knows you'd forgive her pretty much everything, and if you forgive her now without a proper break up, she'll do it again, and again, she'll hide it, because she lost respect for you the day you opened the relationship for her. 

[DazzaMont]

I've been struggling with this decision over the last days. I have taken on board what has been said here and I must say that I've been rather vexed about which the right course of action. I don't believe I will ever fully be able to trust again, I may get close but never 100%. I think I deserve 100%. I truly believe she is sorry and wants to get back to 100%. I don't subscribe to the comments that she will cheat or take advantage again, but that can't take away what already has been done. 

I just don't know whether it's worth the chance to see if it does work. I want it to, she wants it to, but maybe that niggling 1% where there is no trust is a killer. We have sworn off other people for the foreseeable future until we can work out where we are (her idea). 

I think maybe I'm just comfortable and the thought of the upheaval of a breakup is leading me to stay. I understand that is a very weak reason. On the other hand I've never been happier than with her. I know some people will struggle with this but the openness is very empowering and the thought of not being around her hurts, I mean it really makes me feel ill. 

I think no matter what I want and no matter what she wants that once the trust is broken it can never be fully recovered. My choice as I see it is can I live with 99% trust assuming we can even get there or do I look for Miss 100%? 

Please keep the thoughts coming. I might not reply to all individually but I am reading them all and they are helpful. 

[kendahke]

as long as you can live the rest of your life with her and never have this lingering constantly in the dark recesses of your mind, ready to pounce when she doesn't promptly return a phone call or text or stays out unusually late.

56 minutes ago, DazzaMont said:

I think I deserve 100%.  that niggling 1% where there is no trust is a killer.

That is what's going to jump to the front of your mind every time she does something out of the ordinary, no matter how innocent it may be... your imagination will never be at rest without that 100% you feel you deserve.  If you can be with her and not fling this in her teeth, then stay with her.

IME, loss of trust = fertilizer for contempt

Edited January 3, 2020 by kendahke

[elaine567]

When infidelity hits a marriage, the betrayed spouse takes on average 3-5 years to "get over it" and to regain trust and that is often with the help of individual counselling and marriage  counselling and a remorseful spouse willing to do the hard work.  They do it as they have kids and houses and shared assets and a long shared history...
Many do end up policing their wayward spouse and that usually doesn't make for happy lives.
My advice to you is to move on.

[Legatus]

3 hours ago, DazzaMont said:

My choice as I see it is can I live with 99% trust assuming we can even get there or do I look for Miss 100%? 

That is if it will be 1%. You come up with that number to make yourself feel better but reality might be much darker. You focus on whether you would be okay with this in the future. How about you focus on now. She hurt you, you don't trust her, so make appropriate decisions to make yourself better. Perhaps there will be something in the future but would you want to hang around for a hope that it's 99%, or maybe more like 80%, or even less?

[rjc149]

It's the age-old question, asked by many before, and many to come:

"How do I turn a ho into a housewife?"

And the answer is always the same. You can't. 

So if you want to continue dating a bisexual ho in an open relationship where trust is not necessary for the functioning of the relationship, give her another chance. 

If you want a committed, intimate relationship with trust and respect, well, the answer is pretty clear. Letting go after 5 years is tough, but the answer is clear. 

Personally, I don't care what any progressive post-modern relationship ideology tries to advocate. Open relationships are not real relationships. It's FWB with a label. Real relationships are founded on trust and intimacy. That cannot exist if you're wondering how many other dudes (or lesbians) exchanged fluids with your girl this month. You want a real relationship OP, then it's time to get real about relationships. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by rjc149

[OatsAndHall]

On 1/1/2020 at 9:20 AM, DazzaMont said:

If it was with a man we wouldn't be having this discussion.  So are you saying that there is no way for her to regain my trust, if i want to stay I just have to accept that 100% trust is gone.  That's a relationship killer.

 

Not to trying to be intentionally vague here but only you can decide if you can fully trust her again. Every person and every relationship is different and there are no absolutes. If you want to work through this, then I suggest that you start by ending the open relationship status. I doubt you'll ever trust her again if she continues to sleep with other women; I think it needs to become a monogamous relationship. I hate to say this but this situation was probably brewing a long time ago given your open relationship. Open relationships try to make a very grey area black and white and it seems to be a slippery slope.

[DazzaMont]

Well we finally got the chance to have a good talk about all this.  Hectic lives don't lend themselves to sorting out stuff like this.

I'll cut to the chase, we are going to give it a go.  I truly believe she is sorry and that she wants to fix this.  I know it has been only a very short period of time but we have decided to make some big changes.  We are all but giving up the booze, we will still have wine over dinner or when out with friends. The drugs are out completely.  The open relationship is finished bar one exception, her long term girlfriend of 4 years.  I know that flies in the face of the advice but this is something I wanted. There will be no-one else in our relationship.  I realise it's hard for those not in these type of relationships to understand but there really is trust there.  

It's been made very clear that the ONLY chance has been given and that even the slightest deviation from our agreement will be the end.  I'm guessing people will see that as weak and think that I will cave in if something happens again.  I can assure you I will not.  I was very close to ending it right now.  At the end of the day love won out.  We have recommitted to each other, not that that was ever in doubt, and I believe she is the one.  

I really struggled with this and to be perfectly honest an still not 100% sure but I wrote a list of pros and cons and the pros won out easily.  In fact besides the clear con of her breaking my trust that list was not very full at all.  I don't know if we'll make it, but I so know we have two people who absolutely want it to. 

 

[DazzaMont]

Oh, just to add.  She did volunteer to give up all other people including her long term girlfriend.  I couldn't bring myself to ask that of her.  I want her to be the best she can be and explore who she is.  As a male I cannot provide what another woman can.  I know I'll have my detractors but that has been my belief forever, before I even met her.  

[Piddy]

Sounds like you really put some thought into this and all I can say is good luck to you and I hope everything works out for you both.

[rjc149]

2 hours ago, DazzaMont said:

She did volunteer to give up all other people including her long term girlfriend...  As a male I cannot provide what another woman can.  

Honest question, maybe a bit blunt but I mean absolutely no offense and I'm really curious for some understanding into your mindset -- are you also bisexual?

[scooby-philly]

OP,

I cannot speak to an open relationship as I've never been in one. And I've also suffered as I've stuck around (almost married once) in two relationships where the sex wasn't satisfying. I am a very sexual and physical person. I could imagine being with a very sexual woman and being in an open marriage - but we'd only play together and with each other's permission. And only when I knew our emotional connection was stronger than any she could build with someone else. That being said, it probably would never happen. Now as for you I think there's two things to consider - your own sexual needs/nature and the fact that you're not married. First, if you're not legally bound to each other it makes it a lot easier for someone to take risks and push boundaries because untangling from the situation wouldn't be as complex. That may not be a conscious thought when an "opportunity" presents itself, but trust me, the mind would know in the deepest recess. Additionally, why don't you go out and "play" more often. I think the value of an open relationship comes from both parties wanting the same things. She may satisfy all of your needs but you don't satisfy all of hers. I'm not judging you or her. I'm simply pointing to the fact that she needs more than you. Now assuming she would never find one single person to fulfill all of her needs, any potential partner of hers would need to be open to an open relationship or else there's a likelihood she'd cheat. From what I've read and heard, open relationships work when both partners have the same needs and level of physicality. And there's a lot more discussion about fantasies, needs, rules, etc. Yes, the power has been in her hands without you realizing it, but I think the deeper issue is that you probably didn't realize the depth and type of her needs and she wasn't open and honest about her fantasies and wants with you. You might be able to make this work but to be honest, I think you need a really long, deep conversation about your individual sexual desires and fantasies as part of the large discussion or you will find yourself in the same situation again - and next time (not saying she will, but it could happen) she may not tell you about it.

[DazzaMont]

20 hours ago, rjc149 said:

I'm really curious for some understanding into your mindset -- are you also bisexual?

No I'm not.  I've always believed, long before I even met my girlfriend that it must be hard for someone who is bisexual to satisfy all their sexual needs.  I mean as a guy I want all a girl can give me, my girl can do that.  If I was bisexual then she could not satisfy all my desires.  So I decided long ago that should I ever be in a relationship with a bisexual woman that allowing her to see other women would fit nicely with what I believe.  And then years later here I am.  As I said in an earlier post, trust is more important than monogamy.  That said, I'm not into the whole swingers lifestyle because if I can't satisfy all her desires she wants from a man then we're not for each other. 

[2BGoodAgain]

from what i've learned from friends and online... an open relationship needs an even more robust trust system to survive long term. Most couples aren't able to handle an open relationship, and it tends to last only short term or the relationship usually ends.

if you can't trust your partner, then there's no future in this relationship.

you two might want to start baby steps and reboot this relationship like it's brand new, b/c like when a person cheats...whether an open relationship or an exclusive relationship, that past relationship and all the rules/expectations/goals... is destroyed.

you two, if you really want to, should start again from scratch and rebuilt upon this past experience moving forward. get a relationship therapist involved, b/c yeah, alcohol/drugs were involved, and yeah she came clean as soon as it happened, but i always say... before you took the intelligence inhibitor(alcohol, drugs)... you were sober and fully aware. So to me, it isn't as much an excuse that you were drunk, drugged up, etc...

i'm strict about that, b/c i lost an aunt to a drunk driver. So i apply this strict standard to myself, as well. And don't get me wrong, i love my vodkas.

at any rate... i have a whole stack of what's dangerous for open relationships... it's only meant for the very few...  i still remember watching a documentary about open relationships and they focused on 5 couples... within 3 years, 4 of 5 couples ended up breaking up.. though whether it's b/c it's an open relationship or just the normal result of a relationship, it's hard to tell. They were mixed batched of married couples and living together non married couples.

So take that with a grain of salt.

 

[salparadise]

On 1/8/2020 at 8:24 AM, DazzaMont said:

Oh, just to add.  She did volunteer to give up all other people including her long term girlfriend.  I couldn't bring myself to ask that of her.  I want her to be the best she can be and explore who she is.  As a male I cannot provide what another woman can.  I know I'll have my detractors but that has been my belief forever, before I even met her.  

 

On 1/9/2020 at 7:51 AM, DazzaMont said:

That said, I'm not into the whole swingers lifestyle because if I can't satisfy all her desires she wants from a man then we're not for each other. 

 

Interesting solution, and I hope it all works out for the best for you. But it's not very different from what you had previously. It's now officially one-sided, and instead of the occasional sexual encounter, it's second full blown relationship! I wasn't  aware that she had a regular GF too!

The difference here is your belief that bisexuality precludes monogamy. Most people do not concur, including a lot of bisexual women. Most people just aren't into sharing and want exclusivity regardless, as in... "if I can't satisfy all her desires she wants from a man then we're not for each other." I still can't help but to wonder if that's what you actually want too, but are so smitten with her, and lacking of belief in your worthiness, that you feel that you can't have it... that you aren't enough and she might eventually leave you. So by allowing what almost no other would, you trade off having lover of your own for the security of having someone who is also in a relationship with someone else. I'm not saying this is true, I'm just giving you something to consider.

But you're obviously more open to alternative lifestyles and arrangements than most, I just hope you're not making compromises for the wrong reasons, and that will ultimately keep you from having a truly fulfilling relationship. 

One more thought on the trust issue... there are stages of moral/ethical development wherein some people do the right thing simply because it's the right thing to do, whereas others are constrained only by societal pressure or fear of consequences. If she had to go out of town for a week or two such that accountability was not a factor, how would you feel? Knowing that someone does the right thing even when no one is looking (post conventional development) is the basis of real trust.