redhern Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 Hello all, I’ll start off by saying THANK YOU to everyone that contributes here. This forum has made a positive impact on so many people because of you! I would like some opinions on what my next steps should be. I believe my wife of 16 years is having an affair. We’ve had a variety of unusual (for us) arguments over the past few months that has raised my suspicious. Well, today I snooped through some of her messages and am pretty sure she is having an affair with the person I suspected. No smoking gun, but it seems pretty obvious. Quick rundown of our family: We have two kids, one early 20s and lives with us, and the other is a teen in high school. I make 90% of the money in the relationship. We just bought a house 2 years ago after renting for a long time. We have minimal debt, but a lot of possessions. We live in Illinois, so from what I understand, the alimony payments I’d have to make do not allow the judge to consider her adultery as a factor. I’m looking at about 10 years of alimony if we divorce. I’m not certain I want a divorce, is that crazy? I think that exposing the affair to the guy’s wife (married with kids) would feel really good at the time, but I think that would force the outcome of our relationship to be a divorce. If and when I decide to actually do the divorce, I’d absolutely expose the affair to at least the guy’s wife since I’d want the same back from someone else. I’m in a pretty good place mentally I think. I’m doing well in my career and just recently started another degree to advance my education. I don’t have many friends but do have some positive hobbies. In reading the 180 list, I find that I’m kinda following it already, which is good I guess. About 8 years ago I suspected she was having an affair and we went to marriage counseling. In MC I discovered the things I was doing or not doing that contributed to the affair, although she never admitted to it. Those things were all changes that I have made and continue to make, they were actually beneficial for me to do (stuff like helping out more around the house, etc.) About 3 days ago I got into an argument with my son and overreacted (this problem has been ongoing for a few months). She used this a reason for her to no longer sleep in our bed and is now sleeping in her office room. I proposed the idea of going to a family counselor with our son and they both agreed. Initially, she said we should seek a counselor as well for the 2 of us, but then she asked if she could use my office as her bedroom “until things get sorted”, which I said no, and then she said she wouldn’t goto a MC with me and would only go to a family counselor for our son’s benefit. I intended on this being a short post and now it looks like a novel, sorry!
Brennan72 Posted December 31, 2019 Posted December 31, 2019 OK, you have to start changing the way you think about this whole thing Her affair has NOTHING to do with your behavior as a spouse and parent, or your ability to provide. It probably has little to do with what goes on the in the bedroom either. Your efforts at marriage counseling, and at placating her are a complete waste of time. Many women have affairs even when they are in committed, happy relationships, with men who are good providers. A friend of mine is going through this right now. He is a blue-collar guy who makes a good salary. He is in shape, and an outstanding father to his 3 year old girl. He and his wife own a home, and she has her own side business. Nevertheless, his wife is carrying on an affair, and when asked why, she says "I don't feel my husband is up to my status anymore: I have a Masters degree and I'm more intellectual. I've lost interest in him". It is literally that shallow. Women do this because they can. Your wife wouldn't be carrying on like this if she didn't think she could take you to the cleaners in divorce court (and she can). She is seeking affirmation outside the home, might be going through a kind of midlife crisis, etc. who knows? But this isn't a result of you being a crappy husband. You married the wrong woman, and now you need to decide how to proceed. What would I do? 1. Start hiding assets. 2. Establish trusts for my existing assets 3. Let my wife *suspect* I *might* know something is going on. 4. Start gathering evidence. Maybe hire a PI. 5. Get into the best physical and mental shape of my life. Get some new clothes and then? start looking for my new lover and potential wife. Start setting things up for the "day after". Get a side phone and start Internet dating. Just in case ... Then I would confront your wife. Tell her the affair stops now, or you will do the following: a) Inform the other wife that her husband has been cheating b) show the photos, recordings, or other evidence of your wife's cheating to your kids the second part of this is key: when she finds out the kids are going to be told she is a cheating slut that wrecked the marriage and family, she is going to change her tune very quickly, and will likely cooperate. Do NOT have some quiet divorce where she gets to run off with half your stuff without any consequences. that's what she thinks she can do--you need to make sure she understands it isn't going to go down that way. So try to keep it together for financial and logistical reasons (while carrying on with someone new on the side), but be prepared to go nuclear if she doesn't cooperate. 3
Author redhern Posted December 31, 2019 Author Posted December 31, 2019 Thanks! It really helps to hear you say, “this isn’t the result of you being a crappy husband.” It’s probably cliche but I truly think I am a great catch! I certainly have my flaws, but I actively work on them and am a pretty kickass person. I could use some more self confidence regarding my physical appearance, but that’s been a lifelong issue I’ve had. This is a good reason to work on that too. I’m fit and eat healthy, I’m just not blessed with the prettiest face, lol. I’ve seen some ugly sides of her the last couple months that have had me questioning whether I really want to be with her and if I had “outgrown” her, if that makes sense. Having an affair just seems so juvenile to me, I really thought that phase of my life was over. But, reading here, I guess it couple happen anytime! It’s strange to think that even now, when I think about traveling or doing something exciting I try to picture it with her and when I remove her from the picture I don’t really want to do those things. I’ve really enjoyed being with her. We’ve grown and done so much together and I always thought that was going to remain part of my life story. It’s interesting that you don’t really seem to care why she’s doing it. That’s definitely a big difference in the way I’m thinking of it. I’ll have to start that mental process of not caring about the why. But, what is your reasoning with why it doesn’t matter? Maybe that’ll help me flip the mental switch. I like your idea of not confronting her about it now. I need to get my stuff together and prep for a divorce. I’ve looked into some of the financial implications of divorce and I’m leery to start hiding assets, it seems like it could really come back to bite me. We don’t have a ton of assets that I wouldn’t mind splitting 50/50 if that’s what happened. I’m more concerned about the alimony payments! I make a good living but we blow it on junk. I believe I can live a much more limited lifestyle if I had to, but those monthly payments for so long would sure suck! I don’t intend on following the advice about finding another potential wife for the “day after". I’ve been put through quite a bit mentally/emotionally, so being alone actually sounds kinda refreshing. I’ve always kinda preferred being alone anyways. I'd likely just bury my head in school and work and raising my high schooler, to be honest. I could do much more with my career and I find it rewarding. Unfortunately, you all have more experience with these situations so I’d like to pick your brains on a few outstanding questions: Should I pursue MC? She’ll likely go if I want her to. How do I get over the feeling of wondering if she’s going out to meet up with her affair partner every time she leaves the house? Should I get over it? Should I try to gather evidence? In theory, I’m unlikely to ever see anything actually happen other than them meeting up somewhere. But, that’s kinda telling. If I put a GPS tracker on her car, and then drive by to see if he’s there with her or not, will that benefit me? Should I seek my own therapist to help me with these possible changes to my life? THIS SUCKS!!!
Brennan72 Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 I think it comes down to who will be control going forward. By going to MC, you are putting her back in control to some degree--it gives her "negotiating power". If you want to stay together for financial reasons, you can simply give her an ultimatum like the one above, and stress that it is non-negotiable. This isn't about you "treating her better" in order for her to learn how to be faithful again--this is about her cleaning up her act, admitting to the crime, and making contrition. It is up to her to make things right, as she is the one cheating and blowing up the marriage. There is nothing 50/50 here. And I'm not sure she would be entitled to alimony. Child support yes, but alimony? Depends on current law. Unfortunately, this is why goes don't want to get married these days 1
CAPSLOCK BANDIT Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) This is what tends to happen when it is no longer about the children. This is also what happens when you are the primary provider, is that the second the individual without any power, suddenly has some, it goes right to abuse, without any second thought. During the divorce, she can drag it on aslong as she wants, because she will be using your money to do it. It is a bad position to be in, as a man. Edited January 1, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Topical material 1
Mrin Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 Go see an attorney pronto. I'm not familiar with the laws in your state. Most states have gone to a no fault structure where spousal support is calculated via an equation. But usually that is a guidance, not a rule and if you can prove fault then you can get a different judgment. Educate yourself on your options so you can approach this from a position of knowledge and strength. 2
CautiouslyOptimistic Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 I'm sorry you find yourself in this position :(. Only do marriage counseling if you are positive she's A. being honest and B. wants to save the marriage. Otherwise she is just going through the motions to be able to tell herself (and maybe others) "she did all she could." She may agree to it for appearances only. I also agree this is not a result of you "being a crappy husband." Some people just need the "next new thing." 2
schlumpy Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 I see nothing wrong with gathering intel. If she and her lover were planning on dropping the hammer on you sometime in the future I would think it would be valuable to know that. You also need some real evidence to present to the lovers wife which is the best way to put an immediate end to the affair. Buy a voice activate recorder. Sony makes some good ones and they are tiny. You can Velcro them under her car seat or places in the house where she uses her phone. GPS I also good. You have understand what you are up against. I also second Brennen's suggestion that you see some financial people or an accountant and see what choices you have to limit any future obligations you owe her after a divorce.
mark clemson Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 It's too bad this happened and it does sound like she's starting to check out. I think the fact that this happened before is perhaps telling. Her "solution" to being unhappy in the marriage is apparently to look elsewhere. As others have pointed out, that's not fair at all. She may indeed be unhappy and you may indeed be contributing to it, but "go have an affair" and/or monkeybranching to a new relationship is not a reasonable solution - she should focus on fixing things (or if she's really that unhappy, be honest about it with you and leave). You are wise to examine the legality of the suggestions above - many are great, but a few might conceivably get you in trouble, depending on the local laws where you are. I do think you should consider gathering evidence, by whatever legitimate means, just do you know for sure what's going on. Consider STD tests as well. Definitely discuss with your therapist and, since you want to try to salvage this, yes MC might be a big help at some point. However, it's often pointed out around here that she needs IC too, to address why she's using cheating as a "solution" to marriage issues. I think it's encouraging that you are "balanced" on this and could go either way (stay or go). From what I read around here, many guys apparently either completely flip out and want to shred everything about their former life or turn into doormats and (often ineffectually) beg and plead to stay with her while she test drives a new relationship. Having the ability to stay calm and also to walk away if and when you decide it's genuinely warranted shows psychological strength and will serve you well I think. 2
jolehno Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 I would go for a definite proof and expose it to the guys wife. Just out of respect for yourself. Trying to reason with a woman in an affaire seems useless same as MC. and will get you nowhere. The 180 will only prolong the situation, I would say she doesn't care at the moment if you are indifferent with her or not. She even might like it, less guilty feelings. Just put a VAR, I did on the car headrest, under the seat it picks up too much rumble. or an spy app on her phone and then you will have the upper hand and decide what to do. Of course, secure your assets first. 1
Author redhern Posted January 1, 2020 Author Posted January 1, 2020 It's so crazy... I keep swinging back and forth between wanting to call a lawyer and get the divorce rolling to wanting to goto MC and make it work. So many emotions both ways. I did have a one night stand a few years ago that was never found out. I guess this is my karma.
schlumpy Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 3 hours ago, redhern said: I did have a one night stand a few years ago that was never found out. I guess this is my karma. I can see where that would make difference in thinking. Allowing her this one affair is evening up the score in your mind?
usa1ah Posted January 2, 2020 Posted January 2, 2020 Hire a pi. Talk with your lawyer about this, they will know the best ones for the job. There is a guy that hired one up around Chicago this summer. The pi found out his wife has been with at least 13 different men and spent close to $30k in bar tab and hotels. He had his lawyer low ball his wife with an offer on divorce, an offer that him and his lawyer came up with. When her lawyer sent back their counter offer, his lawyer sent hers the information they had on her lovers. His stbx agreed to his original offer. Don’t beat yourself up about this being your fault, marriage problems yes. Her cheating is completely on her. Do not keep this from your kids. They have the right to know what is going on.
Author redhern Posted January 2, 2020 Author Posted January 2, 2020 3 hours ago, schlumpy said: I can see where that would make difference in thinking. Allowing her this one affair is evening up the score in your mind? As much as I don't want to admit it, yes. When I had the one night stand I justified it to myself as "she'll never know", "revenge for her infidelity", and "the girl is out of my league so take advantage of it this one time while you can". I'm not thrilled with my decision, but there's definitely a part of me that still stands by those justifications. But, that affects my thinking with her current affair since my thought process is kinda like - well, just because I was better at cheating, why does that give me free reign to do it but not her?
Mr. Lucky Posted January 2, 2020 Posted January 2, 2020 2 hours ago, redhern said: But, that affects my thinking with her current affair since my thought process is kinda like - well, just because I was better at cheating, why does that give me free reign to do it but not her? We learn early on the playground two wrongs don't make a right. And her cheating doesn't just hurt you, it destroys the marriage also. Regardless, chances are this won't be your decision to make. If this is an exit affair, the future of your marriage will depend on it's progress. All the more reason to continue to get your ducks in a row, legally, financially and emotionally... Mr. Lucky
Caauug Posted January 2, 2020 Posted January 2, 2020 Redhern, is a ONS the same as an affair? Yes they are both cheating, yes they are both wrong but are they the same? If your answer is "Yes" than you are justified in your thinking. I say "No" they are not the same and your wife is proving it as she is now shunning and being distant with you. She has checked out of the relationship with you and has checked in with OM. Please consider her already gone and she has gone mentally/emotionally just not physically. Ask around newly divorced people who is the nastiest (best) divorce lawyer in your area. Go see them, sometimes you get a free half hour. Find out your rights and obligations or get informed!!! Once you have seen them your wife can not use the same lawyer. (first in best dressed type of thing). Assets: Sometimes it is better to dispose of the assets than trying to keep/fight over them. IE: Without your wife would you use that boat or camper? Is she trying to put a value of "Replacement Value" on it or is the value what you could sell it for tomorrow "as is where is" value? Sometimes when you start selling stuff there is a wake up call things are changing..... I'm not saying to sell your Gamma's clock that has been in the family for generations. Don't sell your gym/exercise equipment you will be wanting that if it really is over. If she's in love with an asset make her trade for 2 or 3 you want to keep. If it comes to this, play dirty if you can and keep reminding her that her affair is the reason for the breakup... Be prepared for the worst. Only tell her what she needs to know, NOT about your ONS. Keep a cool head, only show the emotions of hurt, sadness and disappointment, never show anger or hate. She is the one that walked out of the marriage, it was her choice, it is her fault, don't let her forget that. Play on the gilt. Never beg or plead to her. Stand up and be a man. She is the one to beg and plead to you to take her back, if she does not-she does not want to be with you. You need her out of your life.
notbroken Posted January 2, 2020 Posted January 2, 2020 Waiting for 'financial reasons' is just delaying the inevitable - and it won't get cheaper with time. Your wife is likely a serial cheater. For your own piece of mind and self confidence divorce her for that - and tell her exactly why. Gather evidence - including a PI if that makes sense. Expose her affair. Divorce her and move on the best you can. DO NOT hide assets. It will be viewed as dishonest (it is) and will likely cost you alot more in the long run. Be fair in the financial terms of the divorce (but not one cent more than you should). Maintain a good relationship with your kids. Don't bash their mother to them other than a simple statement - "your Mom was less than faithful and I can't tolerate that. I will not bash her to you. She may bash me to you but I will be 'the better man'. Just know this was not on me as she will proclaim. No matter what we love you and I will always be your Dad." Leave it at that. Do NOT rugsweep this and let her get away with it. It will affect you in ways you can't yet fathom.
Author redhern Posted January 3, 2020 Author Posted January 3, 2020 Update: I did some more snooping and found that she went to a divorce attorney today. No signed contract, just a printout of a standard contract for that law firm and a financial worksheet showing her how much alimony she would receive. 1
Author redhern Posted January 3, 2020 Author Posted January 3, 2020 (edited) She did that before when she had the affair about 8 years ago and never ultimately hired the attorney and ended up going to MC where she basically just blamed me for not doing household stuff. After she left there, I saw a message to one of her friends that her appointment was good and she got lots of information. Edited January 3, 2020 by redhern 1
Confused48 Posted January 3, 2020 Posted January 3, 2020 As a former family law attorney, I can tell you that the longer you wait to file, the longer you will pay alimony. Wait long enough and it will become lifetime alimony. File now. You don't have to go through with it but once you file (in most USA states) the clock stops ticking on increased duration of alimony. Also, go see a good attorney ASAP. Even if you don't want to file. If your wife is smart she can get the names of all the decent attorneys in your area, go see them and then they are "tainted." You can't hire them if she talked to them first You will be left with the dregs of the pool of attorneys to choose from. Get a couple recommendations from people you trust, or an attorney that you know that does not practice family law and go see them. Just to make sure you have a couple good options to choose from. 6
Mr. Lucky Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 5 hours ago, S2B said: dont discuss anything with her until you move assets into your name only and make sure she can’t run up your debt. Easier said than done. Had a friend who's wife ran up additional debt while they were "working on their marriage", he ended up with additional liability when they divorced. All the more reason to approach this with a sense of urgency. OP, if the affair is ongoing, she's focused on her future, not yours... Mr. Lucky
JTSW Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 (edited) On 1/1/2020 at 8:04 PM, redhern said: I did have a one night stand a few years ago that was never found out. I guess this is my karma. So you both cheated in your marriage. There is no excuse for that. I can guarantee that she knows something just like you know something. Maybe you should be honest with her about it. Edited January 6, 2020 by JTSW
Buffer Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 Brother, what are you doing? stop this flip, flopping now. She is out of the marriage now, never had to do the hard yards from the last A. Now she is at it again. She has sought legal advice, you do the same as well financial advice now! Get tested for STDs and STIs. Stop letting her call the shots. Do as others have advised with accounts and assets. Also get her to get full time employment, why can’t she contribute to the house? Start gathering all intel re the A and the AP. Keep the info secured separately, check phone bills and accounts. Computer key loggers etc. Unfortunately she is even telling her friends that she is out of the marriage but won’t tell you or the children. Get bad ass now stop being the push over she thinks you are. Get her out of your office now. She can start paying the bills as well. This disrespect has to stop. buffer
HadMeOverABarrel Posted January 13, 2020 Posted January 13, 2020 On 1/2/2020 at 12:41 AM, Caauug said: Redhern, is a ONS the same as an affair? Yes they are both cheating, yes they are both wrong but are they the same? If your answer is "Yes" than you are justified in your thinking. I say "No" they are not the same and your wife is proving it as she is now shunning and being distant with you. She has checked out of the relationship with you and has checked in with OM. Please consider her already gone and she has gone mentally/emotionally just not physically. Ask around newly divorced people who is the nastiest (best) divorce lawyer in your area. Go see them, sometimes you get a free half hour. Find out your rights and obligations or get informed!!! Once you have seen them your wife can not use the same lawyer. (first in best dressed type of thing). Assets: Sometimes it is better to dispose of the assets than trying to keep/fight over them. IE: Without your wife would you use that boat or camper? Is she trying to put a value of "Replacement Value" on it or is the value what you could sell it for tomorrow "as is where is" value? Sometimes when you start selling stuff there is a wake up call things are changing..... I'm not saying to sell your Gamma's clock that has been in the family for generations. Don't sell your gym/exercise equipment you will be wanting that if it really is over. If she's in love with an asset make her trade for 2 or 3 you want to keep. If it comes to this, play dirty if you can and keep reminding her that her affair is the reason for the breakup... Be prepared for the worst. Only tell her what she needs to know, NOT about your ONS. Keep a cool head, only show the emotions of hurt, sadness and disappointment, never show anger or hate. She is the one that walked out of the marriage, it was her choice, it is her fault, don't let her forget that. Play on the gilt. Never beg or plead to her. Stand up and be a man. She is the one to beg and plead to you to take her back, if she does not-she does not want to be with you. You need her out of your life. From a strategic POV, this was an excellent post.
Author redhern Posted January 18, 2020 Author Posted January 18, 2020 Thank you all for the feedback so far, lots of great advice. I saw one divorce attorney that was highly rated and have an appointment this week for another. I liked the first one because he basically said that the law is pretty cut and dry regarding the financial aspect of divorce and that he advises trying to do this all out of court to save costs on all sides. His approach is to negotiate the custody things first and then negotiate the financials separately. I think I liked that. He basically said not to worry too much about the alimony since if she establishes another relationship where they live together it'll end the alimony. He actually said, "go get her a boyfriend, it'll save you $!" We’ll see what this other one has to say. As for the relationship, she has continued to be extremely distant, only talking to me minimally. Just a couple times she asked for little things but nothing noteworthy. I finally broke the news to my 16yr old daughter that we are likely going to get a divorce because of her mother having an affair. I told her that I felt really bad about how it might impact her and that the only reason I haven’t already done it is because of that. She was super supportive of me and basically said she would feel very guilty if I remained in the marriage because of her. "If she did it before and doing it again, she'll probably keep doing it". It was the biggest relief I’ve felt in a long time. It was also fascinating that she asked "who" and immediately guessed the right person. My daughter confided in me that my wife made comments that alluded to her knowing that I’m checking her messages. This may actually be possible since I believe you can setup notifications to alert you if someone is checking your messages the way I am checking them. So, I’m going to stop that now. Furthermore, she switched her messaging to Snapchat so I can’t see much of any of that anyways. In that same conversation she made it a point to tell my daughter that I haven’t attempted to talk to her. My 20yr old son chimed in and said, “he has to pay someone to talk to me.” - referencing the family counseling that my son and I just started going to (2 total sessions so far.) I’ve considered putting a GPS tracker on her car since they’re relatively cheap. I kinda want to know for sure that this affair is going on. If I have confirmation that the affair is happening I don’t think MC will work. However, if she’s just checked-out for other reasons I think MC could work. I know she won’t admit to an affair so I can’t just be blunt and ask her. Financially, I’m paying off my credit cards that are solely in my name so that I can both use them and not have the personal debt. (lawyer says this is not considered marital debt and thus i'm solely responsible.) I’m anticipating a new job (about 1 month away) that should bring me some extra money, and have setup a fresh solo bank account that I will have setup for this new job. My credit cards will be paid off within 2 months if my budget is correct. I’ve basically just been burying my head with work and school and trying to figure out how not to screw up my daughters life. I keep going between two main thoughts throughout the day: I really have enjoyed doing lots of fun stuff with her and will miss that, but I also enjoy the potential of doing lots of stuff that she’s been uninterested in over the years. It’s an interesting dynamic. I'm just sad I guess.
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