Did you get mad at the OW or OM?

[Mr. Lucky]

3 minutes ago, OpenBook said:

The only thing that make sense to me is the above sentence. They want to keep loving their spouse.

Certainly possible with acceptance and forgiveness.  I just don't see how it can be applied selectively...

Mr. Lucky 

[oldtruck]

12 hours ago, Mr. Lucky said:

Ask the family of the victim if they hold the getaway driver as culpable as the guy who pulled the trigger and took their loved one's life.

Again, makes no sense to me to love your reconciled spouse but vow eternal vengeance against the AP.  Only one of those two promised you commitment and fidelity...

Mr. Lucky 

there is and never will be the need to forgive the AP to recover with the WS

[pepperbird]

10 hours ago, oldtruck said:

 

I always find it really quite funny how people will think the word "love" somehow changes everything. " I know I hurt people., but we were in love, god damn it".

I held the OW accountable for her actions and choices. I hold my husband accountable for his. I get it makes people who want to see ow/om as victims of the predatory married person uncomfortable, but it's how I feel. The ow/om may be a wounded individual, they may have had a crappy life, terrible relationships, poor self esteem or whatever, but that doesn't mean they get to visit that on other people's heads.people who never signed up to have to deal with the fallout of their wounded psyche.

 

[Prudence V]

On 1/17/2020 at 2:42 PM, Confused48 said:

So you think infidelity was equally acceptable in the 17th and 18th centuries as it is now? Interesting.

Nope - that was my point. Even when it was the subject of shaming etc as you’d like to see, it still thrived, just underground. It never went away. 

[Prudence V]

23 hours ago, OpenBook said:

I have never understood it either, why the betrayed seem to aim so much vitriol toward the "getaway driver" and not toward the person who actually did the deed - their spouse.

Because if you accept that your spouse freely chose to betray you (and “murder you” as someone claimed elsewhere) then it’s hard to justify welcoming them back into your arms, bed, life, etc. Whereas if you can externalise it somehow - blame something, anything, other than your spouse’s free choice, an OW, PTSD, depression, losing their job / parent / etc... then you can rationalise it somehow. If they were “themselves”, if they weren’t possessed by the demon OW / trauma / illness / etc they wouldn’t have done that, because they really really love you...

 

It’s some kind of cognitive dissonance for sure, but some people don’t have the financial or emotional resources to walk away, and so they need to be able to justify it to themselves. And it obviously works, or people wouldn’t do it. 

 

[pepperbird]

7 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Because if you accept that your spouse freely chose to betray you (and “murder you” as someone claimed elsewhere) then it’s hard to justify welcoming them back into your arms, bed, life, etc. Whereas if you can externalise it somehow - blame something, anything, other than your spouse’s free choice, an OW, PTSD, depression, losing their job / parent / etc... then you can rationalise it somehow. If they were “themselves”, if they weren’t possessed by the demon OW / trauma / illness / etc they wouldn’t have done that, because they really really love you...

 

It’s some kind of cognitive dissonance for sure, but some people don’t have the financial or emotional resources to walk away, and so they need to be able to justify it to themselves. And it obviously works, or people wouldn’t do it. 

 

that's like saying the following:

" its not any different than the ow/om and the cognitive dissonance they feel knowing they can never trust the person they are with because he or she has shown them he can cheat.

They externalize the reasons their mm/mw strays.. It MUST be their terrible husband or wife at home that's making them cheat. They would never, ever think of cheating if not for them. An ow/om has to believe this.

I guess they lack the emotional resources to walk away, so they stay and continue to blame the bs for their new hubby/wifey's actions.  It's sad really."

Doesn't that sound silly? Of course it does. People stay in relationships for all sorts of reasons. People can cheat and learn from their poor choices. If not, then every om/ow is a fool for trusting a married person.

[Prudence V]

1 hour ago, pepperbird said:

that's like saying the following:

" its not any different than the ow/om and the cognitive dissonance they feel knowing they can never trust the person they are with because he or she has shown them he can cheat

Different situation entirely. Also different from the BS and WS who go through the work of a proper reconciliation. A proper reconciliation involves the BS and WS facing the infidelity, and the WS’s choice in that, as well as the circumstances, rather than ducking and hiding and externalising it. That’s rugsweeping.

No doubt there are some OW who engage in similar rugsweeping when they go into a FTR with a fMM who leaves the WS, but I imagine there are few of those. Most have seen up close how bad a M can get, from watching their fMM’s M implode, and so they take steps from the outset to address any issues and ground their R in proper accountability - otherwise it wouldn’t get out of the starting gates. 

[Mr. Lucky]

On 1/18/2020 at 7:06 PM, oldtruck said:

there is and never will be the need to forgive the AP to recover with the WS

Perhaps 'forgive' is the wrong word.  I'll just say, if you're going to reconcile with your WS, you have to assign the AP less significance.  Making them a vessel for all your pain and heartbreak means your never really dealt with your spouse's infidelity.  It's another form of rugsweeping...

Mr. Lucky

Edited January 20, 2020 by Mr. Lucky

[Confused48]

On 1/19/2020 at 9:03 AM, Prudence V said:

Nope - that was my point. Even when it was the subject of shaming etc as you’d like to see, it still thrived, just underground. It never went away. 

 

Oh I agree it did require more secrecy. You seem to ignore though that with that level of shame and required secrecy, that it was far more uncommon than it is now. Plus no vigilantly justice was required. Society and the law handed down justice instead,. 

17 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Most have seen up close how bad a M can get, from watching their fMM’s M implode, and so they take steps from the outset to address any issues and ground their R in proper accountability - otherwise it wouldn’t get out of the starting gates. 

Spoken like a true OW with no remorse and accepting no accountability for their part in the imploding, or blowing up, the MMs marriage. 

Oh, and then the classic - my relationship will be better bc of what I learned by destroying the marriage of another. 

Hilarious if it were not so sad. 

 

[Betrayed&Stayed]

20 hours ago, Prudence V said:

Different situation entirely. Also different from the BS and WS who go through the work of a proper reconciliation. A proper reconciliation involves the BS and WS facing the infidelity, and the WS’s choice in that, as well as the circumstances

Why do some insist that the above statement is mutually exclusive to the BS being mad at the AP? My WW and I went through reconciliation. I held her accountable for decisions and betrayal. She has paid her penance plus some. I also feel that the OM is total POS low-life. If I ever get the chance for revenge, I'll most likely take it. My feelings towards the AP has nothing to do with my reconciliation or relationship with my wife. Unless the AP was led to believe that the WS is single, every AP is culpable for their involvement in blowing up a marriage/family. My wife's OM knew very well that she was married. I do hold him accountable and I've told him that he's culpable. I hope someday he gets hit by a city bus.

Edited January 20, 2020 by Betrayed&Stayed
typo

[oldtruck]

20 hours ago, Mr. Lucky said:

Perhaps 'forgive' is the wrong word.  I'll just say, if you're going to reconcile with your WS, you have to assign the AP less significance.  Making them a vessel for all your pain and heartbreak means your never really dealt with your spouse's infidelity.  It's another form of rugsweeping...

Mr. Lucky

I disagree. It is not making the AP a vessel for all the pain. Rug sweeping is allowing the

WS to not do the recovery work. And the same for the BS. The BS does not have to forgive 

the AP to do the recovery work. The WS does not need the BS to forgive the AP for the WS

to do their recovery work.

[Prudence V]

18 hours ago, Confused48 said:

my relationship will be better bc of what I learned by destroying the marriage of another. 

If you think the OW is so powerful she can just wave her magic genitalia and all marriages around her come crushing down, we clearly hold different views on how relationships work. 

[pepperbird]

10 hours ago, oldtruck said:

I disagree. It is not making the AP a vessel for all the pain. Rug sweeping is allowing the

WS to not do the recovery work. And the same for the BS. The BS does not have to forgive 

the AP to do the recovery work. The WS does not need the BS to forgive the AP for the WS

to do their recovery work.

Something at least two highly trained counsellors told us when we sought counselling was that it's perfectly okay for a betrayed spouse to be angry and assign blame in any way they see fit. This can  become a problem if a BS places all the blame on the ow or om and sees an affair as being all their fault.
It's not.
Conversely, an ow or om is no innocent party, and if a BS feels they should shoulder at least some of the blame for their pain, then so be it. Really, unless an ow or om keeps inserting themselves into their life, it won't matter anyway.
 

[Mr. Lucky]

10 hours ago, oldtruck said:

I disagree. It is not making the AP a vessel for all the pain. Rug sweeping is allowing the

WS to not do the recovery work. And the same for the BS. The BS does not have to forgive 

the AP to do the recovery work. The WS does not need the BS to forgive the AP for the WS

to do their recovery work.

So the AP is a worthless, demonic home wrecker who’s predatory manipulation ensnared your unsuspecting WS?  And your spouse is a good person who made a few bad decisions. 

Good luck with that.  Again, I’ll ask this - which one looked you in the eye and promised fidelity?

Mr. Lucky 
 

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Mr. Lucky
Clarifying

[Starswillshine]

You can definitely reconcile with the WS without forgiving the AP. As long as the BS is making the WS do "the work" and not just rug sweeping, and the WS actually does the work. If a BS is strictly blaming the AP for the affair and forgiving their WS without consequence, then I would say there is a misplacement of anger for certain. 

The AP is responsible for their part of the affair. A BS does not have to "reconcile" their bad feelings for the AP to move on. 

[pepperbird]

1 hour ago, Starswillshine said:

You can definitely reconcile with the WS without forgiving the AP. As long as the BS is making the WS do "the work" and not just rug sweeping, and the WS actually does the work. If a BS is strictly blaming the AP for the affair and forgiving their WS without consequence, then I would say there is a misplacement of anger for certain. 

The AP is responsible for their part of the affair. A BS does not have to "reconcile" their bad feelings for the AP to move on. 

Each situation is different. In some, the ow/om didn't know the person is married, and in my mind, they are just as betrayed as the BS. Some om/ow know and feel bad, but it's not enough to stop them. A few actually relish being an om/ow, as it feeds their ego and need to be on top.
In the first case, I couldn't be angry at the person- they did nothing I feel is wrong. The other two? All I can say is that if they couldn't stand the heat, they should have stayed out of the kitchen. If you're going to walk into a minefield that's well marked, they shouldn't be surprised if it blows up in their face.

[Starswillshine]

37 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

Each situation is different. In some, the ow/om didn't know the person is married, and in my mind, they are just as betrayed as the BS. Some om/ow know and feel bad, but it's not enough to stop them. A few actually relish being an om/ow, as it feeds their ego and need to be on top.
In the first case, I couldn't be angry at the person- they did nothing I feel is wrong. The other two? All I can say is that if they couldn't stand the heat, they should have stayed out of the kitchen. If you're going to walk into a minefield that's well marked, they shouldn't be surprised if it blows up in their face.

My xWH had told at least one of his OW that he was divorced. I could assign no fault to her. She was as much a victim as I was. She never knew until his psycho OW contact her to tell him that she needed to stop texting him because he was married with 4 kids. Oh, the irony. 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Starswillshine

[pepperbird]

5 hours ago, Starswillshine said:

My xWH had told at least one of his OW that he was divorced. I could assign no fault to her. She was as much a victim as I was. She never knew until his psycho OW contact her to tell him that she needed to stop texting him because he was married with 4 kids. Oh, the irony. 

what a jerk! I am glad you are rid of him.

when I read stories like your, it always makes me wonder what makes a person feel so entitled that they go through life hurting people the way he did(does). Did he not care at all that he was hurting people, or did it simple not register?

Perhaps a scarlet JA ( jack ass ) on his jacket could warn women that he's about.

Edited January 21, 2020 by pepperbird

[Starswillshine]

1 hour ago, pepperbird said:

what a jerk! I am glad you are rid of him.

when I read stories like your, it always makes me wonder what makes a person feel so entitled that they go through life hurting people the way he did(does). Did he not care at all that he was hurting people, or did it simple not register?

Perhaps a scarlet JA ( jack ass ) on his jacket could warn women that he's about.

He just believed in his capabilities to keep everything secret. All of his OW were plane rides away. And all kept in a casual type of thing. He would see when he would come in town. 

Clueless wife at home taking care of all the kids he wanted to have (and wanted more but I just could not handle more on my own with his travel schedule). 

[elaine567]

She doesn't need to "wave her magic genitalia", she just needs to help the MM take big chunks out of the foundations of his marriage and it will eventually come crashing down...

Edited January 22, 2020 by elaine567

[Artdeco]

32 minutes ago, elaine567 said:

She doesn't need to "wave her magic genitalia", she just needs to help the MM take big chunks out of the foundations of his marriage and it will eventually come crashing down...

Therein lies the misconception, in my opinion. Any WS will already have some issues with their spouse, if they start looking elsewhere. Whether their new partner "helps them take chunks out of the foundation of their marriage" ( ..... a very dramatic way to phrase it, btw) is irrelevant. Why? Because the WS is already a WS anyways (in his head, in his soul, it's what they want/what HE wants). If, let's say, the very BAD AP number 1 doesn't make them do very bad things, they will find AP # 2 or 3, and maybe they get lucky there.....or number 4? Maybe. Maybe not. The only sure thing in that moment is the WS being a WS, who wants different things. He is bored in his marriage, his W hates him, they do not get along, she spends all his money very unwisely, she lets herself go, what do I know? Or maybe he's JUST an a**h***. A sex addict. A risk taker. And his wife tries everything to make him happy. She might be a saint. Again - irrelevant.

That STILL doesn't change the fact that it's HIM who makes the decision to find somebody better suited. It is his intention to have a better relationship, a different relationship, or an additional relationship (HIS intention, remember!).........Or he just wants SOMEBODY else, or something different, because he feels like it, or because he's irresponsible or because he's bored or an idiot. WHO CARES? What I am saying is that NOBODY makes him do ANYTHING. Heck, not even his own wife has any influence on the direction he's taking, the path he's hitting.......Why on earth do people give so much power to an OW, or an AP in general? It's really smaller than you think. Most of them don't want to steal a husband, trust me. They have very little influence. Do not be angry at them! It does not change anything, and it certainly won't help you reconcile.      

Edited January 22, 2020 by Artdeco

[mark clemson]

Indeed - taking big chunks out of the marriage. All of which was made possible by WS opening the door for them in the first place. Who took out the first "chunk"?  But we all already know that.

[pepperbird]

7 minutes ago, Artdeco said:

Therein lies the misconception, in my opinion. Any WS will already have some issues with their spouse, if they start looking elsewhere. Whether their new partner "helps them take chunks out of the foundation of their marriage" ( ..... a very dramatic way to phrase it, btw) is irrelevant. Why? Because the WS is already a WS anyways (in his head, in his soul, it's what they want/what HE wants). If, let's say, the very BAD AP number 1 doesn't make them do very bad things, they will find AP # 2 or 3, and maybe they get lucky there.....or number 4? Maybe. Maybe not. The only sure thing in that moment is the WS being a WS, who wants different things. He is bored in his marriage, his W hates him, they do not get along, she spends all his money very unwisely, she lets herself go, what do I know? Or maybe he's JUST an a**h***. A sex addict. A risk taker. And his wife tries everything to make him happy. She might be a saint. Again - irrelevant.

That STILL doesn't change the fact that it's HIM who makes the decision to find somebody better suited. It is his intention to have a better relationship, a different relationship, or an additional relationship (HIS intention, remember!).........Or he just wants SOMEBODY else, or something different, because he feels like it, or because he's irresponsible or because he's bored or an idiot. WHO CARES? What I am saying is that NOBODY makes him do ANYTHING. Heck, not even his own wife has any influence on the direction he's taking, the path he's hitting.......Why on earth do people give so much power to an OW, or an AP in general? It's really smaller than you think. Most of them don't want to steal a husband, trust me. They have very little influence. Do not be angry at them! It does not change anything, and it certainly won't help you reconcile.      

I'm going to go with thew advice of the two trained therapists my husband and I saw. Both explained that a BS can feel perfectly fine assigning their feelings in whatever way they wish. After all, it's not like a pie where there's only so many portions to go around. A BS can be ticked at the ow/om and hold them responsible for their actions without taking anything away from their spouse's responsibility.

Really, why is it up to the ow/om to have any say in this at all anyway? why would they even care? one doesn't get to help hold the knife being stuck in someone's back and then lecture them about how they should feel.

[pepperbird]

14 minutes ago, mark clemson said:

Indeed - taking big chunks out of the marriage. All of which was made possible by WS opening the door for them in the first place. Who took out the first "chunk"?  But we all already know that.

I'm not understanding why it has to be an either or proposition. It's not as if holding the ow/om responsible for their choices takes anything away from doing the same to the WS.

IME, the BS who have come out the other side the most intact are those who were given the freedom to work their way through the aftermath in whatever way they saw fit. They held their husband or wife accountable for their actions, and the same was true for the ow/om. That can mean anything from they remain ticked off at them to, if they are also married, they disclose their their BS what's been going on. Quite frankly, that's the risk one assumes when they engage in that sort of behaviour. Why an ow/om would think it should be any different is beyond me.

Really, in the end, why would an ow/om care anyway? Unless they are sticking around or the BS decides to contact their spouse, they probably won't even know.

[mark clemson]

PB, good point + I definitely agree it's not either-or.  OM/OW might care if the BS comes around seeking revenge in some form, etc.