Did you get mad at the OW or OM?

[pepperbird]

On 1/6/2020 at 1:28 PM, Finding my way said:

Not seeking revenge against someone doesn't mean you don't see them as "bad". 

It most likely has to do with your general nature.  I'm fortunate to have never had anything horrible enough to me to make me want revenge.  My husband's infidelity included.  The only thing I can think of is maybe if someone murdered someone I loved - then maybe I would want revenge.  And if you want to make a correlation to morality - mainstream religions do not support vengeance.  For Jews and Christians, the Book of Leviticus says "Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord".  

 

 

advice about forgiveness from a man in the sky who tells us to forgive but holds one woman's naive choices over humanity heads for the rest of eternity?.

[mark clemson]

39 minutes ago, pepperbird said:

The majority of ow/om aren't duped or lied to, they know full well the person is married and simply don't care who they hurt if it means they get what they feel they are entitled to have.
I'm fully in favor of a BS taking whatever steps, sans criminal activity, that helps them to regain a sense of balance and control over their life. For some, that will mean making a clean cut, for others, that means staying. Some get angry at the ow/om and some don't.

The counterpoint being that, in theory at least, the APs never get caught and so "no one gets hurt". I know you probably see it differently, PB. Some OWs clearly wish to blow up the marriage, but many do not appear to want to , e.g. several of the >10 year ones posted on this board. Of course we all know it doesn't always work out that way.

You might say - well, they ARE hurting the BS (even if not discovered), and that is a legitimate view, but it's not one they share I would guess. "What they don't know can't hurt them" is presumably the thought process. And often there seems to be a lot of guilt over the affair. Just not enough guilt to end it.

Not trying to derail this thread with yet another debate about these issues, just mentioning the counterpoint.

[Artdeco]

Yeah, I hear you, pepperbird, but can’t really comment on that. Never had much of an interaction with his ex. She seems to be a nice person (as far as I can tell, based on our very rare run-ins at family events and such), also she never held much of a grudge towards me or my then MM....she’s always been very classy. Very in control. As far as ruining a family or whatever way people want to put it - kids were basically adults ..... so nobody took their father away and kept him from tucking them in at night. I’m sure they didn’t see divorced parents in their near future, though, they were actually quite surprised/shocked when they were told, but they’ve come around and we all get along. 

 

I understand that everybody’s situation is different, and if you have a perpetual cheater with a bunch of very young kids and a wife who has no clue, because she’s in love and relatively newly married, yes, I do understand that a young wife with high hopes will be crushed and angry and probably desperate. And vice versa - if the same should happen to an in-love, young husband who’s doting on his cheating wife. I get it. 

 

There are “cheaters” and there are cheaters, unfaithful husbands, unhappy wives, unfulfilled marriages, people who fall in love suddenly even though they’re married to someone else, you name it ..... so many scenarios. 

 

Life and love sometimes hurt, and while life is tough by nature, love shouldn’t be, it just shouldn’t be a chore. I can accept “tough” and rough patches, every once in awhile, but when a relationship gets too difficult, I’d rethink it. I’d regroup. I’d give this advice to married people who struggle. And I’d give the same advice to “cheated-on” spouses, honestly. If you have a partner who makes you unhappy, e.g. by cheating on you, then you need to take a step in the right direction. And the direction needs to be the direction that is right for you.

 

I always think it’s better to cut your losses rather than take revenge on the third-party who is not even married to you. That’s all.

[Mr. Lucky]

9 hours ago, Artdeco said:

Life and love sometimes hurt, and while life is tough by nature, love shouldn’t be, it just shouldn’t be a chore. I can accept “tough” and rough patches, every once in awhile, but when a relationship gets too difficult, I’d rethink it. I’d regroup.

I hope "regroup" isn't shorthand for cheating or monkeybranching into a new relationship?  Because that pretty much destroys the ability to address the issues in the present one, kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy...

Mr. Lucky

[Confused48]

On 1/7/2020 at 9:02 PM, Artdeco said:

 

 

I always think it’s better to cut your losses rather than take revenge on the third-party who is not even married to you. That’s all.

You can do both. They are not mutually exclusive choices.

In my case, the serial cheating AP was certainly going to continue his predatory ways. He specialized in going after MW. I am sure my vengeance put a dent in his ability to destroy more families in the future. I know my actions have spared others great pain. 

[Artdeco]

17 minutes ago, Confused48 said:

You can do both. They are not mutually exclusive choices.

In my case, the serial cheating AP was certainly going to continue his predatory ways. He specialized in going after MW. I am sure my vengeance put a dent in his ability to destroy more families in the future. I know my actions have spared others great pain. 

Sure you CAN do both. But why would you? You can’t stop a criminal/predator/perpetrator of any kind from doing what they’re doing. Unless you maybe put them behind bars. I don’t think, honestly, you put a “dent” into anything. If he “specialized” (your words) in going after MW, do you really think you were the one with the power to stop it? He might’ve left your wife (or XW) alone, but you have no idea what he’s been doing ever since......whom were you doing a favor? His wife? Did she divorce him? 

 

What I’m trying to say is that in general I don’t think that people change. They do what they want to do until they no longer want to do what they’re doing. Any outside influence is just a minor disturbance and it’s not actually actively “doing” anything. Others have no influence there. And I don’t know whether or not they got divorced because of your interference. But I’m sure that if he is still married he’s still going his merry ways, and if he’s divorced he is still going his merry ways as well.

 

We have less influence on other peoples’ lives than we like to think.

[Confused48]

Public humiliation for a well known individual does put a dent in their ability to continue to carry on as unusual. 

Thinking that you can't change things leads to justification for doing nothing. See something, say something. Looking the other way is the same as condoning the evil act. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing... said someone, Churchill? Good Germans did nothing in the face of increasing evil and in the end they all paid the price for not speaking up, for doing nothing when they could have done something.

No, I'm not the kind to keep my mouth shut and take abuse quietly. Even if I am not the victim, if I see abuse, I speak up. 

[Artdeco]

Now now, let's slow down, cowboy.

Comparing WW 2 to affairs? Have you had therapy? Jesus. You sound like (if there were such a thing) anti-affair law enforcement (the most bitter of the bitter). 

Affairs are more common that you think, and ruining someone's reputation because you were personally affected and hurt may sound like a good idea, until it catches up with you. And trust me: You'll be the one suffering in the end. Because you're too focused on external parties. 

 

 

[mark clemson]

Just to point out, a wife who truly is vulnerable to straying would stray, just with someone else. As people note here, part of it comes from inside them - their choices in response to not being happy in the marriage (or simply "needing" more if they were happy).

If you live in a truly small community, it IS possible you've saved a few families. So I suppose that side-effect (if true) is something you could be proud of in this. Otherwise, you've just diverted the stream IMO. And even so it could be the old flame on Facebook or texting/sexting a distant OM instead of a PA with this guy.

[heartwhole2]

It's understandable to be angry that someone else's poor choices caused you pain and trauma, and you can simultaneously be angry at your spouse for lying and cheating while being angry at the AP for being a person of poor judgment and character who parachuted into your life without your consent. I don't think a BS should spend a lot of time beating themselves up for being angry or fantasizing about revenge. Anger can be a good catalyst for making changes in your life.

That said, I also think that vengefulness is misguided and life is too short to spend it directing your energy towards your enemies. Hold your head high and walk away. They'll blow up their own life soon enough without help from you. And if they don't -- if they manage to learn from their mistakes -- then the world just got a little better. 

Personally I was mad at the OW, sure. Not in a "this is your fault" kind of way but in a "how could someone think this was a good idea?" kind of way. I saw on social media once that she fell off her bike and had all sorts of cuts and bruises and for a split second I was glad. But I'm not a petty person so that feeling passed pretty quickly. Eventually we had a brief interaction where I asked her to remove things from public social media and it was cordial. I was healed enough to both be vulnerable about what would help me and OK if she wasn't strong or caring enough to provide it. I'm a human being; of course the affair hurt me. I'm not ashamed of that. She can't hurt me by knowing that. What sort of person would I be if it didn't? I don't wish her ill. Life is too short for that. Our lives intersected for a time, tragically and unnecessarily, but they did, and so I think it's natural to be curious about this person, and there are no right or wrong feelings, but if you are acting in ways that don't jive with who you want to be, try to find a better outlet for them.

Edited January 10, 2020 by heartwhole2

[Confused48]

 

Quote

ArtDeco said: Affairs are more common that you think,

This was true for me at first. Before I found LS, I thought, no, this guy could not be after my wife. What kind a of a monster would he have to be to knowingly go after a married woman with young children. So I was in denial as to what was happening.

That doesn't mean affairs are ok. Murder, rape, war crimes, all very common things. Not ok. Not ok to do nothing about them if you can do something.

Quote

ArtDeco said:    and ruining someone's reputation because you were personally affected and hurt may sound like a good idea, until it catches up with you. And trust me: You'll be the one suffering in the end. Because you're too focused on external parties.  

External parties? The guy had his penis inside my wife. The guy befriended my children to get to that point with my wife. He is not an external part of my life. He is like family. A very nasty evil part of my family that I wish serious harm upon, but he is/was not an external part of my nuclear family. How do you feel about the step father of your children? Is he external and not worth a second thought? If he seriously harmed your ex or your children would you have no ill will towards him? 

Some people don't of course. You could murder their only child and they would be able to forgive and ask the court to let you walk free. 

I'm not that type of person, obviously. My attitude is more common than you think.  

Edited January 10, 2020 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Fix quoting

[Confused48]

Also, the "I can't do anything about it. Nothing will change" attitude is like"My vote doesn't matter." If everyone felt that way then yes, nothing will get done, nothing will change. If a whole lot of people start shaming cheaters, things will change. That is how life works. Vote. Stop using plastic. Don't just sit there wringing your hands, do something. 

[pepperbird]

I look at it like this...

Say there's a guy in the park yelling at his wife, running her down and calling her terrible names. He looks up at me and says " she did x, y and z and I'm angry. Want to join in?".

I can choose to hurt this woman, or I can choose to walk away. An ow/om can choose to get involved with a married person or they can walk away. From what I can tell, most ow/om aren't trying to hurt anyone, it's just a by product of their actions.That does nothing to lessen its impact, and sure, the WS may have strayed with someone else if it wasn't the ow/om, but the truth is, it wasn't someone else. It was them.

[Mr. Lucky]

On 1/10/2020 at 1:31 PM, Confused48 said:

.If a whole lot of people start shaming cheaters, things will change. 

Confused48, did you reconcile with your WS?

Mr. Lucky 

[BoughtAtAPrice]

I was double betrayed. It was absolutely the worst pain I have ever felt. But at the time I rolled over and quietly left. I had hope for about a week but then realised that there was going to be no going back so I made arrangements to leave. He carried on with the affair right in front of me. a**h***. I never spoke to her again after the moment I found out. I just felt cold, flat nothingness. I had no vengeful thoughts at the time but you bet Ive had them since. Once the dust settled and I came out of the "fog" of pain I have had many thoughts of what I would just relish doing to her. OOoh, it turns me on to be honest but I feel safe knowing it's only in my head, I would never enact the thoughts.

As for him - he's welcome to her. Last I heard they were still together. I should have seen it coming as she was already cheating on her own husband (several different men at different times) and bragging to me about it.

I have a hard time making friends now after her. I just cant fathom how you can profess to be good friends, spend so much time together and then do that?

[Prudence V]

On 1/10/2020 at 8:31 PM, Confused48 said:

If a whole lot of people start shaming cheaters, things will change.

You mean, like in the old days, when they were forced to wear big red letter A? Yes, that stopped infidelity in its tracks, it’s been gone for good ever since. 
 

oh, wait....

[pepperbird]

On 1/10/2020 at 4:31 PM, Confused48 said:

Also, the "I can't do anything about it. Nothing will change" attitude is like"My vote doesn't matter." If everyone felt that way then yes, nothing will get done, nothing will change. If a whole lot of people start shaming cheaters, things will change. That is how life works. Vote. Stop using plastic. Don't just sit there wringing your hands, do something. 

We can't control the behavior of others, but we can refuse to accept it.  Personally, I couldn't be friends with someone who was actively and knowingly  dating a married person. It doesn't mesh with my personal values system and moral compass. To me, cheating is a form of abuse, and I don't want to be friends with an abuser. It's no different to me than choosing not to be friends with someone who I feel is a bigot, homo/trans phobic etc. because I feel that's hurtful behavior I want no part of. It may or may not extend to other areas of their life, but I wouldn't feel comfortable risking being friends with someone I don't feel I can trust.
I've found that water finds its own level. People who are okay with infidelity and see it as no big deal with, even without intending to, tend to surround themselves with others who share their values system.  To me, choosing to look the other way re: infidelity  it's akin to finding dishonesty and hurtful behavior acceptable, and I don't feel the same way. They may feel differently, which is their right.
 

[Confused48]

On 1/15/2020 at 5:35 PM, Prudence V said:

You mean, like in the old days, when they were forced to wear big red letter A? Yes, that stopped infidelity in its tracks, it’s been gone for good ever since. 
 

oh, wait....

So you think infidelity was equally acceptable in the 17th and 18th centuries as it is now? Interesting.  Perhaps not and perhaps bc it was deemed shameful back then whereas now it is glorified. Read any Esther Perel lately?  I'm not advocating for a red letter. Maybe sentence them to picking up trash on the highway with orange jump suits on and the right to sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress. 

I'm sure it would not eliminate bad behavior. No laws can do that for any crime but it would diminish the frequency of the bad behavior and give the victims some semblance of justice. Lack of justice in the courts system of this country, with respect to infidelity, leads directly to acts of vigilantly justice against the sexually deviant perpetrators. 

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Confused48

[pepperbird]

2 hours ago, Confused48 said:

So you think infidelity was equally acceptable in the 17th and 18th centuries as it is now? Interesting.  Perhaps not and perhaps bc it was deemed shameful back then whereas now it is glorified. Read any Esther Perel lately?  I'm not advocating for a red letter. Maybe sentence them to picking up trash on the highway with orange jump suits on and the right to sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress. 

I'm sure it would not eliminate bad behavior. No laws can do that for any crime but it would diminish the frequency of the bad behavior and give the victims some semblance of justice. Lack of justice in the courts system of this country, with respect to infidelity, leads directly to acts of vigilantly justice against the sexually deviant perpetrators. 

 

There's times I think there could be  place for suing a knowing ow/om in civil court for mental distress. Not every time, but there are certainly cases where it could make sense.

[Mr. Lucky]

1 hour ago, pepperbird said:

There's times I think there could be  place for suing a knowing ow/om in civil court for mental distress.

If your spouse is co-defendant, it would make perfect sense...

Mr. Lucky

[pepperbird]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Lucky said:

If your spouse is co-defendant, it would make perfect sense...

Mr. Lucky

why? there is no legal obligation to only sue one party. An individual is free to place accountability in any way they wish. in the well loved analogy of the bank robbery, the get away driver is held just as legally liable as the robbers themselves, even if they never actually did anything but facilitate the actions of their partners. 

[Confused48]

1 hour ago, Mr. Lucky said:

If your spouse is co-defendant, it would make perfect sense...

Mr. Lucky

It is quite common to sue a party that has assets and leave off an equally culpable co-defendant simply because they have no assets. That being said, I do agree that the WS would be a proper person to include, if they had assets. In fact it used to be very common that a cheating spouse got less in a divorce by reason of their cheating. Of course that was back when cheating was seen as a bad thing, by courts of law. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Confused48

[mark clemson]

So here's a hypothetical example:

Your wife cheats with a rich guy. Despite the horror of a Dday and "broken marriage" you want to reconcile. His wife find out. She divorces the rich husband and takes, say, half his money.

She is vindictive and sues your wife for damages. Even though you don't have that much money, she does and can make your (married) life even more of a nightmare just through legal bills alone. She's a real b*tch and keeps it up for as long as she can.

I'm not sure this is how these things actually play out in RL (the rare times they do occur), but it seems plausible and it sure doesn't sound fair to BH to me. Life isn't always fair, but it's now 2 trainwrecks for BH instead of just one.

Yay vengeance!

[Mr. Lucky]

19 hours ago, pepperbird said:

in the well loved analogy of the bank robbery, the get away driver is held just as legally liable as the robbers themselves, even if they never actually did anything but facilitate the actions of their partners

Ask the family of the victim if they hold the getaway driver as culpable as the guy who pulled the trigger and took their loved one's life.

Again, makes no sense to me to love your reconciled spouse but vow eternal vengeance against the AP.  Only one of those two promised you commitment and fidelity...

Mr. Lucky 

[OpenBook]

24 minutes ago, Mr. Lucky said:

Only one of those two promised you commitment and fidelity...

And only one of those two you love (and have loved) for much of your life and have seriously invested in.

I have never understood it either, why the betrayed seem to aim so much vitriol toward the "getaway driver" and not toward the person who actually did the deed - their spouse. The only thing that make sense to me is the above sentence. They want to keep loving their spouse.

Love is highly illogical.

Edited January 18, 2020 by OpenBook
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