I enjoy being the OW

[Hip Pocket]

On 12/23/2019 at 7:43 AM, elaine567 said:

Plenty guys are workaholics and see themselves as providers first and foremost, doesn't mean they don't care.

I was M to a workaholic and felt my H didn’t care. Enough years of that takes its toll on a M. 

[BaileyB]

On 12/23/2019 at 6:24 AM, ElecLibre said:

I have made no commitments to his wife or son so why should I be the one to be held accountable for his actions? 

The child on the playground who cheers on a bully who is hurting another child - are they responsible for the injury to the other child? Are they absolved of any responsibility or guilt because they didn’t physically hurt the child? Or, is there some obligation to do the right thing and intervene in some way - even if that means going to get help - to prevent the pain of another human being? 

I would argue that the person who stands by to watch one individual hurt another is equally responsible for the pain inflicted. While they may not have physically hurt the child, their indifference and inability to intervene or prevent harm, makes them complicit and equally responsible for the pain of another human being. 

Furthermore, to use a similar analogy... I have never understood the whole “I am not ready for a relationship right now, so I will chose to have no strings attached sex with an unavailable man who is otherwise committed to another woman...” I mean, there are literally millions of single men in this world who would love to have no strings attached sex with a woman and still, there are those who have to set their sights on someone else’s husband/father. 

To use the analogy of the playground bully, it’s as if the bully was too lazy to make his own lunch and decided to steal the lunch from another child. It matters not that the other child is hungry, as long as the bully’s belly is full.

These are the kind of things that seem pretty obvious to most people, but both scenarios depend on the individual having the ability to put themselves in the position of the other individual and then to have empathy for their pain/hardship. And not to be harsh, but that’s what seems to be really lacking in this discussion. 

[jah526]

There has been some interesting research done with psychopathic criminals that suggests that there is an empathy switch in their brains that by default is turned off. For the majority of people it is switched on by default. The researchers found that if they asked the participants in the study to try to empathize, they were in fact able to do it. It helps explain how psychopaths can be charming and have a keen ability to read people, and then go back to their default off mode once the prey is caught.
 

In other words, it doesn’t seem that asking someone to try and empathize is necessarily a waste of time, even with hardened criminals.

[Hip Pocket]

2 hours ago, BaileyB said:

The child on the playground who cheers on a bully who is hurting another child - are they responsible for the injury to the other child? Are they absolved of any responsibility or guilt because they didn’t physically hurt the child? Or, is there some obligation to do the right thing and intervene in some way - even if that means going to get help - to prevent the pain of another human being? 

I would argue that the person who stands by to watch one individual hurt another is equally responsible for the pain inflicted. While they may not have physically hurt the child, their indifference and inability to intervene or prevent harm, makes them complicit and equally responsible for the pain of another human being. 

Furthermore, to use a similar analogy... I have never understood the whole “I am not ready for a relationship right now, so I will chose to have no strings attached sex with an unavailable man who is otherwise committed to another woman...” I mean, there are literally millions of single men in this world who would love to have no strings attached sex with a woman and still, there are those who have to set their sights on someone else’s husband/father. 

To use the analogy of the playground bully, it’s as if the bully was too lazy to make his own lunch and decided to steal the lunch from another child. It matters not that the other child is hungry, as long as the bully’s belly is full.

These are the kind of things that seem pretty obvious to most people, but both scenarios depend on the individual having the ability to put themselves in the position of the other individual and then to have empathy for their pain/hardship. And not to be harsh, but that’s what seems to be really lacking in this discussion. 

Very interesting that you would assume that an OP is cheering on the MP for “hurting”  or “bullying” his spouse. To the contrary, most OP I know do everything they can to help protect the BS which includes not forcing them to D and keeping the affair a secret. I have zero interest in him ending his M, so she still keeps her H, her assets, and her family intact. If you need to call the MM the bully I think a better analogy for the OW in your scenario would be the friend who whispers in his ear don’t push her around, don’t steal her lunch, and don’t say anything that would hurt her feelings. Just be nice and make her day. 
 

But since he already does that on his own I don’t have to coach him. Maybe that’s why I’m so attracted to him, he’s a kind man. 

[stillafool]

3 hours ago, Pocket said:

.To the contrary, most OP I know do everything they can to help protect the BS which includes not forcing them to D and keeping the affair a secret. I have zero interest in him ending his M, so she still keeps her H, her assets, and her family intact. If you need to call the MM the bully I think a better analogy for the OW in your scenario would be the friend who whispers in his ear don’t push her around, don’t steal her lunch, and don’t say anything that would hurt her feelings. Just be nice and make her day. 
 

 

TBH, most OW do everything to keep the affair a secret to protect themselves from scandal and harm not to protect the BS.  If the OW were really a friend of the MM they would tell him to leave them alone and not cheat on their wife and family.  Why would they whisper to him not to push her around, eat her lunch or hurt her feelings when in fact OW is doing the same thing to her along with him.

To answer your other question:  When I need support in my marriage I turn to my husband, family and friends.  Glad to see you're enjoying your "lovely" relationship with someone else's husband.  You must be so proud.

 

[Hrgirl915]

I find your post intriguing given my own experience. You must be wired in such a way that your emotions are protected. Perhaps it’s your current stage in life that also allows you satisfaction in the affair. 

[Artdeco]

5 hours ago, stillafool said:

TBH, most OW do everything to keep the affair a secret to protect themselves from scandal and harm not to protect the BS.  If the OW were really a friend of the MM they would tell him to leave them alone and not cheat on their wife and family.  Why would they whisper to him not to push her around, eat her lunch or hurt her feelings when in fact OW is doing the same thing to her along with him.

To answer your other question:  When I need support in my marriage I turn to my husband, family and friends.  Glad to see you're enjoying your "lovely" relationship with someone else's husband.  You must be so proud.

 

I have to disagree. I didn’t find my A scandalous. Hence, I wasn’t ashamed of it.  

[stillafool]

That's why I said "most", there will always be ones like you.

[Hip Pocket]

10 hours ago, stillafool said:

TBH, most OW do everything to keep the affair a secret to protect themselves from scandal and harm not to protect the BS.  If the OW were really a friend of the MM they would tell him to leave them alone and not cheat on their wife and family.  Why would they whisper to him not to push her around, eat her lunch or hurt her feelings when in fact OW is doing the same thing to her along with him.

To answer your other question:  When I need support in my marriage I turn to my husband, family and friends.  Glad to see you're enjoying your "lovely" relationship with someone else's husband.  You must be so proud.

 

Why would I need protection? We’ve been together a very long time, longer than many marriages, and we are just fine. 
 

Like you, I turn to my partner for support, not that I need much, and he turns to me. 
 

And I’m not trying to be a friend to the BW. I don’t think of her and she doesn’t think of me. There’s no reason to say I must be proud. She’s happy, he’s happy, and I’m happy. But I think you’re getting OT. 

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

42 minutes ago, Pocket said:

Why would I need protection? We’ve been together a very long time, longer than many marriages, and we are just fine. 

Because if he'll be a cheater with you, he'll be a cheater to you. If he'll lie to his life partner, he'll lie to you.  You are probably shaking your head and saying "he'd never do that" but I wonder how you can trust a liar and a cheater not to lie to you or cheat on you?  It's who he is.

Why hasn't he told his wife about you if they have no sex?  Wouldn't she start to wonder why he became OK with that?

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

29 minutes ago, BaileyB said:

that’s what you mean when you say “she is happy, we are happy - everybody is happy” - does it not?

That's what I took it to mean.....unless the poster means she is happy not knowing she's being betrayed......

[ElecLibre]

I can't speak for the other OW/OM who have responded, but for those who are confused as to how I can be satisfied with this situation (and not be a sociopath) I'm happy to explain. It quite simply comes down to the fact that having a life partner is not a goal for me, it's great having someone along for the ride, but essentially we will die alone so I'm not looking for the so called "other half" to feel complete. I also don't believe in possession of people - just because someone chose to spend part of their life with you does not give you ownership over them. Mariage is a social construct in my opinion, and so is monogamy, so I find it extremely hard to believe that you can only love/connect with one person. If this was the case, why are there so many stories of infidelity? Why are people so distressed over these situations if the morality is clear? Are we (humans) not fighting against a natural urge? Why self-loathe for something that is so natural? 

For those who keep saying that OPs are delusional, perhaps we just have a different perception of relationships in general. 

[Prudence V]

On 12/24/2019 at 9:41 PM, stillafool said:

It doesn't go well for OW who don't stay in their place but end up falling in love. 

I’m not sure what you mean by “OW who don’t stay in their place”. What place is that? I never felt that I had a “place” that I had to stay in. We were a couple, same as any other R I’ve been in. That he had a BW somewhere in the background was neither here nor there. That was his issue to deal with, not mine. 
 

And as to it “not going well” for OW who fall in love - it went wonderfully for us. Yes, there was a bumpy time during the divorce because his BW really clung to the dead marriage and didn’t want to divorce, and so made it as difficult as she could, but everyone was very supportive and so we got through that stronger than ever. Years on, we still can’t believe how lucky we are to be together, and give thanks for that every day. 
 

I think it only “doesn’t go well for OW” if they allow themselves to slip into a powerless position, for example getting more attached to the MM than he is to her, or allowing him to treat her like an option while she treats him like a priority. But that’s the same in any relationship, whatever label you give it. 

[Prudence V]

On 12/29/2019 at 4:11 PM, stillafool said:

So I want to ask all of you OW who are  happily in an affair, who do you turn to for support of this?  Most people like to talk to others about those they date, who do you talk to?

I’m in agreement with Eleanor Roosevelt, who famously said:

Quote

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.

I’ve never felt the need to “talk to others about those they date”, not even at primary school. But nor was our relationship a “no-go area”. We had many mutual friends, and I was close to his family too, so it wasn’t that I avoided discussing him or didn’t respond if anyone asked after our relationship - we were both always open and honest with those we loved. 

[Prudence V]

On 12/30/2019 at 1:08 PM, BaileyB said:

The OW interests are primarily selfish, as in most affairs.

Romantic love is both selfish, in that most people are willing to “compete” for the affections of the one they desire, and altruistic, in that most people will put their desired one’s interests before their own. Extramarital relationships are no different in this - the OW desires the MM and is “selfish” in pursuit of the EMR; she also recognises the MM’s vestigial affection for the BS / marriage, so cuts him some slack on that and doesn’t demand that he dump the BS forthwith. 
 

 

[Prudence V]

20 hours ago, Artdeco said:

I didn’t find my A scandalous. Hence, I wasn’t ashamed of it.  

In he modern world, few people consider relationships that don’t conform to traditional heterosexual marriages, to be “scandalous”. We don’t expect gay people to be ashamed of being gay, nor are we scandalised when people live together without being married. Certainly none of our friends, family, neighbours or colleagues considered our relationship scandalous, and we live in a tiny, rural village. 

[Betrayed&Stayed]

6 hours ago, ElecLibre said:

...Marriage is a social construct in my opinion, and so is monogamy, so I find it extremely hard to believe that you can only love/connect with one person.

True, and that contract is to "forsake all others". BOTH parties agreed to that term of the contract. In fact, I'd argue that it is the primary term of the contract/marriage. The problem is when ONE party unilaterally changes the contract without consent of the other party. That is called fraud, deception, and breach of contract. It's not that difficult of an concept. 99% of people growing up understands marriages to work this way.

[Tristian]

Folks after another clean up I'll remind everyone that if you are looking to discuss the morality of extramarital relationships you can do so in an appropriate thread rather then dragging another one off topic. Two members will be entering the new year with revoked posting privileges. Anyone else?

[stillafool]

On 12/31/2019 at 8:18 AM, Prudence V said:

I’m not sure what you mean by “OW who don’t stay in their place”. What place is that?
 

I think it only “doesn’t go well for OW” if they allow themselves to slip into a powerless position, for example getting more attached to the MM than he is to her, or allowing him to treat her like an option while she treats him like a priority. But that’s the same in any relationship, whatever label you give it. 

That would be the "place" I was talking about.  Most OW (around here) start off just casual in their affairs then become more attached and start pinning for him, wanting more of his time, becoming jealous of his life with his wife and then becoming depressed.  I disagree that this is the same with any relationship because when involved with a free man and the desire is mutual he wants you to become attached.

[Prudence V]

18 hours ago, stillafool said:

I disagree that this is the same with any relationship because when involved with a free man and the desire is mutual he wants you to become attached.

It’s exactly the same - if the desire is mutual, then you both want to be together, and you both overcome whatever obstacles (including vestigial marriages) stand in your way, or you accept that your love is doomed because the obstacles (whatever they are) cannot be overcome and use the sentiments to create beautiful poetry, or art, or music. It was ever thus - great literature is full of examples. One (or both) partners being chained to a redundant spouse is but one such obstacle. Many others exist. 
 

If the desire isn’t mutual, or not to he same extent, then you have a problem - but again, that is the same whatever label you attach to the relationship. These forums are full of such stories. 
 

The issue with extramarital relationships, as with any other kind of relationship, is symmetry. If both partners are equally invested in the R, it flourishes, despite obstacles. If one is more invested than the other, it flounders. Same as with any other R. 

[jah526]

Here's a good way to overcome the obstacle of a "vestigial marriage" - divorce.

The problem with an affair is that there is absolutely no way to tell how invested he really is. He will say all the right words, do all the right things, but in the end, you come to find that it was all lies. In about 98 percent of these cases. So why would anyone take those odds at such an expense to one's emotional well-being?

Exactly the opposite with a single man. He keeps seeing you over months, years? He's invested.

[Prudence V]

10 hours ago, jah526 said:

Exactly the opposite with a single man. He keeps seeing you over months, years? He's invested

...except when he’s not. When he’s using you as cover, to keep his family off his back, while he invests his real energy and emotion in the one he really fancies, that his family won’t approve of because of their gender / ethnicity / religion / age / etc, for example; or when he’s loving being a “free man” with no intention ever to settle down, but still enjoys the occasional perks of having someone to shag / cook for him / clean his home / be arm candy for functions when he needs a “+1” / etc; or when he’s merely biding his time with you, not wanting to be alone, but still hoping that “the one” will come along, so that he can invest his everything in that relationship and drop you when that happens; or any of the myriad other scenarios you can read about on these forums. 
 

It’s a convenient myth that (1) all extramarital relationships are purely instrumental, and are doomed; and (2) by contrast any relationship with a single person would offer a one-way ticket to everlasting bliss. A simple read of these forums proves both of those claims to be completely fallacious. 

[elaine567]

7 minutes ago, Prudence V said:

It’s a convenient myth that (1) all extramarital relationships are purely instrumental, and are doomed; and (2) by contrast any relationship with a single person would offer a one-way ticket to everlasting bliss. A simple read of these forums proves both of those claims to be completely fallacious. 

It is not as black and white as that, true, but you were a "successful"  OW who finally got her man,  your experiences are not the same as many of the other OWs posting here, other OWs who are not as "lucky" as you were with your choice of MM.
Some MM are looking for a new wife, some are very unhappy in their marriages and WILL leave, some fall madly and deeply in love and mean every word they say...
Some OWs are perfectly happy being #2...  
BUT most of the OWs posting here are not in that position. If they were, they would not be tearing their hair out, crying their eyes out and feeling desperate and depressed.
They are stuck with MM who take them for granted, who willingly hurt them, who are at best "selfish", if not actually "sociopathic".
These woman are not happy being #2, they want happy endings and focused attention from men who are in no position to offer them much at all.
These stories are usually very predictable and they do not tend to lead to "happy ever afters"...

[jah526]

4 hours ago, Prudence V said:

It’s a convenient myth that (1) all extramarital relationships are purely instrumental, and are doomed; and (2) by contrast any relationship with a single person would offer a one-way ticket to everlasting bliss. A simple read of these forums proves both of those claims to be completely fallacious. 

No, not all extramarital relationships are doomed. But the odds of one working out in your favor, if you are hoping for exclusivity, are not good. Yes, there are exceptions when seeing a single person also, but in general, the odds of it working out are much better.

Anyway, I’m glad that it worked out for you, but even in your situation, would you encourage a friend who was contemplating getting involved with a married person to do so? 

[Hip Pocket]

7 hours ago, jah526 said:

No, not all extramarital relationships are doomed. But the odds of one working out in your favor, if you are hoping for exclusivity, are not good. Yes, there are exceptions when seeing a single person also, but in general, the odds of it working out are much better.

Anyway, I’m glad that it worked out for you, but even in your situation, would you encourage a friend who was contemplating getting involved with a married person to do so? 

I’ll answer if Prudence doesn’t mind. 

I’ve had friends come to me with this exact scenario and I’ve told them, as with any R (EMR or out in the open R), to do what felt right because regrets are hard to live with. Had I not embarked on my EMR with my MM I would have regretted it to this day. He’s one of the kindest, most respectful men I’ve known not to mention the chemistry between us is out of this world. No matter what happens between us I will always consider him one of the most important people in my life. How could I advise someone to avoid something as wonderful as this experience has been for me?