Author cre8r Posted October 27, 2019 Author Posted October 27, 2019 So here's my continuation of the date that won't hug...the backstory...she pursued me on a dating site, we messaged for a week before the first date. Date seemed to go well, I asked for a hug after, she didn't want to. She texted when she got home after the date, after 3.5 weeks she initiates morning and evening texts and some in between, obviously a sign of interest. A couple of weeks ago on date two I didn't attempt or ask for any physical contact, just talking, wanting her to be comfortable. Date 3 went well, I went to the restroom came back and sat on the bench seat on her side of the table next to her. Her body language seemed receptive, she had a bandaged arm which I used as an excuse to take it and rubbed it as I attempted to get to know what she was feeling. She told me she was nervous on the first date, less nervous on the 2nd but still a little nervous on this 3rd date. I put my arm around her for a few moments and said a few reassuring things and just tried to give off a laid back nonchalant vibe. When it was time to leave and as I walked her to her car, she wanted to take selfies of us, so obviously we had to "get in close" and I had to put my arm around her. Her body language in the pictures looked receptive and comfortable with her smiling but after before departing, I asked for the hug and she still seemed unsure. At that point I really didn't care so I just gave her the "come here" and gave her one anyway. Although she reciprocated, it wasn't exactly a bear hug. But still when she got home, she texted about what a great date it was and we shared the pictures we took. I'm looking for any women on this site that could provide any advice or insight on how to proceed to advance this relationship. After 3 dates a slight hug seems like a major accomplishment. The physical aspect of this relationship at this point seems unobtainable. The motive is not to get into her pants, it's just a desire to have a normal male/female relationship, not a platonic one. Again, any good advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance.
TheFinalWord Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 Do you think she has trust issues? Did an ex cheat on her? Has she ever been sexually abused or sexually assaulted? A hug is pretty innocent. That seems extreme for three dates. Unless there was some traumatic event that has her putting up some serious walls. Of course, there's the possibility she doesn't like you. But she's texting you and accepting your dates. A lot of times women that like your company, but aren't sure how attracted they are will at least try to kiss you in hopes some chemistry is there. The fact she won't do anything sounds like some past even has her putting up serious walls...
dramallama Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 Do I remember you mentioning a religious / ethnic heritage - if so that probably has a part to play in this? If so, it'd be useful to understand which one, so we can advise better.... If I'm getting mixed up, sorry, move along ;-) 1
basil67 Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 After the first date, she mentioned how things are in her country. What have you since learned about dating in her country? 1
d0nnivain Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 Nothing has changed. She is giving you time so she can get to know you better & becoming more trusting. She'd not there yet. It may take several months for her to be comfortable with the level of physical affection you want. Even though you describe it "normal male/female relationships" it's not normal for her. Normal for her is what is going on. What you want is something she sees are far more intimate then 3 dates merits. You are on different pages, unlikely to reconcile your divergent views on the subject. Think 3-6 months for a hug. Think 9 -12 months for a kiss & after marriage for vanilla sex. You will never get other things.
fromheart Posted October 28, 2019 Posted October 28, 2019 If your happy with a hug after 3 dates, that's fine. If not, things will get complicated fast. Personally, I'd like to be thinking of the awesome kissing and sex I'd enjoyed last night, instead of planning how to get a hug. Maybe date other women, and tell this one to give you a shout if she ever wants a good kiss.
Gaeta Posted October 28, 2019 Posted October 28, 2019 It's the SECOND time you VIOLATE her! First time you turned your head so she ended up kissing you on the lips instead of the cheek and now you hugged her even after she said NO. What's wrong with you???? What part of NO don't you understand?? She's timid and conservative. She's not for you. She needs a man that is willing to get to know her without the kissing and hugging. That man is NOT YOU! Stop forcing yourself and your mentality on her! You want an easy girl so go get one!! . 3
Author cre8r Posted October 28, 2019 Author Posted October 28, 2019 (edited) As I posted previously, she pursued me on a dating site, how timid and conservative can that be? It wasn't a "friends.com" site. Also she texts me continuously even after I "violated" her a second time as you say, so I must be doing something right. I appreciate your feedback but as a guy, I know women can have ulterior motives when dating, I just can't figure this one out. I wouldn't exactly call someone "easy" giving out a hug on a 3rd date. Edited October 28, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator quote removed
d0nnivain Posted October 28, 2019 Posted October 28, 2019 So you think she's playing games? She says no hug but a peck on the cheek is OK, so you turn your head for a lip kiss. That is a violation of her personal space. The fact that she went out with you again after you did that does say she doesn't enforce her own boundaries. Now she again said no hug but you grabbed her & forced the hug on her. Again, she's still talking to you & not being as offended as we are that you seem to be pushing yourself on her. I get the sense that you think in her case no means yes. As long as you keep pushing & taking what you want, that eventually she'll cave & give you the physical things you seek. So far she hasn't rebuked you for the liberties you have taken. Yes, there are some women who want to be talked into things so they don't have to take responsibility for their own sexuality whether G rated or X rated but as a man in this #Me-Too era you play that game at your own peril. She's also a fool for continuing to interact with you when you have been so physically presumptuous with her. One false move & you will either be slapped or labeled a date rapist. Why do you continue to bother with this girl? Are you enjoying this game? 1
Gaeta Posted October 28, 2019 Posted October 28, 2019 As I posted previously, she pursued me on a dating site, how timid and conservative can that be? It wasn't a "friends.com" site. Also she texts me continuously even after I "violated" her a second time as you say, so I must be doing something right. I appreciate your feedback but as a guy, I know women can have ulterior motives when dating, I just can't figure this one out. I wouldn't exactly call someone "easy" giving out a hug on a 3rd date. There are COUNTLESS of studies explaining why women go back to their offenders. Jian Ghomeshi's case comes to mind! the fact she calls you back doesn't mean what you're doing is right!!! It just means she is VULNERABLE, and misinterpret your violation for attention! Thinking women have ulterior motives and forcing yourself on them will only bring you a criminal charge! SMARTEN UP. . 2
Gaeta Posted October 28, 2019 Posted October 28, 2019 I asked for the hug and she still seemed unsure. At that point I really didn't care so I just gave her the "come here" and gave her one anyway That is the scary part to me. You just didn't care she was gonna say yes or no to a hug. You just TOOK IT. That behavior is unacceptable in 2019!! This is something your old uncle did 1965. Nowadays a man wait to be INVITED to a hug. You need to get your duck in a row mister! Now you're dealing with a timid woman with no experience what so ever and practically offering herself to be abused, but one day you'll come across a woman like me or D0nnivain that won't let you off the hook so easily with your macho mentality. 3
d0nnivain Posted October 28, 2019 Posted October 28, 2019 (edited) My umbrage is at your lack of understanding & your insistence that you are not doing anything wrong. It's exactly what Gaeta pointed out -- you saying you didn't care & giving her a hug anyway. Try looking at it this way. What if a man treated your sister or your mother the way you are treating this girl? How would you feel? Would you think it was OK? What advice would you give a woman you loved about how to deal with a guy like you? Edited October 28, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator 1
Author cre8r Posted October 28, 2019 Author Posted October 28, 2019 I asked for the hug and she still seemed unsure. At that point I really didn't care so I just gave her the "come here" and gave her one anyway That is the scary part to me. You just didn't care she was gonna say yes or no to a hug. You just TOOK IT. That behavior is unacceptable in 2019!! This is something your old uncle did 1965. Nowadays a man wait to be INVITED to a hug. You need to get your duck in a row mister! Now you're dealing with a timid woman with no experience what so ever and practically offering herself to be abused, but one day you'll come across a woman like me or D0nnivain that won't let you off the hook so easily with your macho mentality. Again, did you read the post and the context in which the hug was given? She wanted a selfie of us which would require close proximity. How would you require the pose for a date, just keeping my hands to the side and not putting my arm around her? And after the "ice was broken", a hug upon departing isn't a threat to even the nuttiest of nuts. Amazing how I look for advice on this site and people get off chastising.
Mrin Posted October 28, 2019 Posted October 28, 2019 (edited) They make a good point. I would suggest looking at this objectively as you can and not try to be denfensive. I'd also suggest stop seeing this woman. To be this many dates in and not feel comfortable hugging says you're not a good match. Edited October 28, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
d0nnivain Posted October 28, 2019 Posted October 28, 2019 (edited) a hug upon departing isn't a threat to even the nuttiest of nuts. This is what you keep missing. A hug requires at least one person --you -- to put your arms around the other person -- her. If you are taller then her, your head goes across the top of her head. Thus the smaller person becomes completely surrounded by the other person. I have been the recipient of unwanted hugs by much larger people & let me tell you it's overwhelming & scary. The smaller person is at the physical mercy of the larger person who has them boxed in on all sides. the smaller person is trapped. In the sexual harassment context, the law analyzes conduct based on how a reasonable WOMAN would feel, not how a reasonable person would feel. If a woman you don't know enters into your personal space you think "Hubba Hubba I'm gonna get lucky." Even if you are not conscious of it, the experience is generally a positive one for most men. On the other hand when a man who is not a family member or my husband steps into my personal space my first instinct is fear. I wonder if he'll hurt me, even if he is a friend. If I haven't expressly invited him into my space that initial reaction is uncomfortable. Rationally I know my friends aren't going to hurt me but the instinctual reaction is vastly different. Edited October 28, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator thread clean-up
Author cre8r Posted October 28, 2019 Author Posted October 28, 2019 (edited) My umbrage is at your lack of understanding & your insistence that you are not doing anything wrong. It's exactly what Gaeta pointed out -- you saying you didn't care & giving her a hug anyway. Try looking at it this way. What if a man treated your sister or your mother the way you are treating this girl? How would you feel? Would you think it was OK? What advice would you give a woman you loved about how to deal with a guy like you?To answer your question, I'd like for my mother or sister to be treated the way I've treated this date. She's mentioned all 3 times what a good date it's been and how the time goes too fast, these things I've already mentioned previously in this thread. On the other hand, if my sister or mother wouldn't want any physical contact with a date, I would ask then why would she keep initiating texts with him. So again, trying at the request to get an understanding of these contrasting actions, this question has been hijacked off onto a tangent where rape is interjected into something as innocent as a hug. Obviously not the place for thoughtful advice. Edited October 28, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator thread clean up
d0nnivain Posted October 28, 2019 Posted October 28, 2019 Turning your head so she kissed your lips is not a voluntary act on her part -- hence forced. Grabbing her for a hug she didn't want as part of the selfie is forced. It is possible to take a selfie simply standing side by side. See my last post about the overwhelming aspects of a hug from the smaller person's point of view. As for wanting the women you love to be treated like you are treating this woman, do you really want them to have to put up with guys who don't take no for an answer because that is the guy you are?
fromheart Posted November 29, 2019 Posted November 29, 2019 This is what you keep missing. A hug requires at least one person --you -- to put your arms around the other person -- her. If you are taller then her, your head goes across the top of her head. Thus the smaller person becomes completely surrounded by the other person. I have been the recipient of unwanted hugs by much larger people & let me tell you it's overwhelming & scary. The smaller person is at the physical mercy of the larger person who has them boxed in on all sides. the smaller person is trapped. In the sexual harassment context, the law analyzes conduct based on how a reasonable WOMAN would feel, not how a reasonable person would feel. If a woman you don't know enters into your personal space you think "Hubba Hubba I'm gonna get lucky." Even if you are not conscious of it, the experience is generally a positive one for most men. On the other hand when a man who is not a family member or my husband steps into my personal space my first instinct is fear. I wonder if he'll hurt me, even if he is a friend. If I haven't expressly invited him into my space that initial reaction is uncomfortable. Rationally I know my friends aren't going to hurt me but the instinctual reaction is vastly different. No, not all men think 'hubba, hubba I got lucky.' Some of us think she's another mad, over sexed cat lady to be, and I don't want disease.
Saracena Posted November 29, 2019 Posted November 29, 2019 Like the others I find the forced hugging rather alarming. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you've blown it after this. I've had personal experience of something like this and it was extremely off-putting if not scary. It involved someone who I had dated very briefly in the distant past (I ended things) who called to my house to return some stuff he'd borrowed. The first thing he did was hug me and even when I resisted and pulled away he refused to let go! I ended up slapping him in the end. It was a horrible experience and even though I never had any interest in seeing him ever again, this incident really cemented my view I'd had a very lucky escape when I ended things with him. Although the context is different, it is never a good idea to force someone to do something they clearly do not want to do.
Author cre8r Posted November 29, 2019 Author Posted November 29, 2019 Like the others I find the forced hugging rather alarming. I wouldn't be at all surprised if you've blown it after this. I've had personal experience of something like this and it was extremely off-putting if not scary. It involved someone who I had dated very briefly in the distant past (I ended things) who called to my house to return some stuff he'd borrowed. The first thing he did was hug me and even when I resisted and pulled away he refused to let go! I ended up slapping him in the end. It was a horrible experience and even though I never had any interest in seeing him ever again, this incident really cemented my view I'd had a very lucky escape when I ended things with him. Although the context is different, it is never a good idea to force someone to do something they clearly do not want to do. I assure you the "forced hug" was nowhere as alarming (or forced) as these posters replies want to make it appear. If it were as such, I wouldn't continue to get daily texts initiated by her nor her wanting to still date after 2 months. But aside from that, if I knew I imposed unwanted contact on someone, I would be left feeling queasy. That's not me. As a reminder, this is a dating issue, not a workplace environment that doesn't involve a boss or co-worker. But again, regardless of the situation, I respect boundaries and know how to handle dates despite how a few of the haters here want to exaggerate the "forced hug" or whatever. Perhaps writing it appears to be more extreme than being there at the scene. Anyway, have a go at it haters.
BaileyB Posted November 30, 2019 Posted November 30, 2019 if I knew I imposed unwanted contact on someone, I would be left feeling queasy. You imposed unwanted physical contact on someone. Sorry. It’s pretty clear in your own description of the event. I will say, I was quite shy the first time I seriously dated a man. He was really lovely - it’s just a simple question, “can I have a hug?” He was just constantly checking in to see if I was comfortable - “Is this ok?” or “Can I hold you like this?” She may want physical contact but still not be very comfortable being physically affectionate with a man. If that is the case, she will tell you if you ask/check in to see if what you want to do is ok. But “I really didn’t care. I went for it anyway...” is not ok.
BaileyB Posted November 30, 2019 Posted November 30, 2019 (edited) I'm looking for any women on this site that could provide any advice or insight on how to proceed to advance this relationship. After 3 dates a slight hug seems like a major accomplishment. The physical aspect of this relationship at this point seems unobtainable. The motive is not to get into her pants, it's just a desire to have a normal male/female relationship, not a platonic relationship. Any good advice is appreciated.. This woman’s advice - you seem to be the kind of man who judges the success/failure of a date by the physical contact/lack of physical contact you receive on that date. Fair enough, but not everyone lives by the same “three dates = sex” rule to which you seem to subscribe. And before you tell me, I don’t want sex by the third date, just some kind of physical affection... Let me say, you are not wrong for wanting physical affection from your relationship partner. But, you simply have to respect the fact that everyone is different related to the time they need to be comfortable being affectionate with another person. Where you have gone wrong here is your attempt to impose your own expectations on a partner who clearly does not feel the same way that you do. You have certain expectations of how you want/expect the physical aspect of this relationship to progress and when things don’t happen according to plan, it leaves you feeling uncertain and insecure. At this point, you decide to dismiss your partner’s feelings and do what feels right to you rather than showing some patience, and allowing the relationship to progress at a pace that is comfortable for your partner. And therein lies your problem. If it’s important to you that your relationships progress quickly and your partner is physically affectionate with you - this is clearly not your girl. Best to move on now before you get yourself into an uncomfortable situation. As for the advice you have received in this discussion - just because it does not support your thinking, does not mean that it is not good advice. You have taken a “my way or the highway” kind of attitude in this discussion/in this relationship - and I would suggest that it would benefit you to listen to that advice that you want to reject, as it may help you to consider this situation from another perspective. Good luck. Edited November 30, 2019 by BaileyB
ExpatInItaly Posted November 30, 2019 Posted November 30, 2019 The two of you are incompatible on a fundamental level, OP. It's not going to work out. 1
Zinging Posted December 1, 2019 Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) The two of you are incompatible on a fundamental level, OP. It's not going to work out. I agree. OP, it seems like she's a reserved traditional woman who isn't too familiar with the dating game. This might explain her reservations, which are not the norm by current dating standards. You, on the other hand, are sort-of aware of how the game of dating works. The cheeky hug/kiss debate aside, why are you pursuing her for 2 months if it's going too slow for your expectations? Rather than debating that her dating conditions ought to be unusual for the culture she belongs to, why not wish her well and walk away gracefully since you appear not to conform to the traditional or reserved mindset? What do you see in her that you haven't come across in other women? Edited December 1, 2019 by Zinging
Author cre8r Posted December 1, 2019 Author Posted December 1, 2019 I agree. OP, it seems like she's a reserved traditional woman who isn't too familiar with the dating game. This might explain her reservations, which are not the norm by current dating standards. You, on the other hand, are sort-of aware of how the game of dating works. The cheeky hug/kiss debate aside, why are you pursuing her for 2 months if it's going too slow for your expectations? Rather than debating that her dating conditions ought to be unusual for the culture she belongs to, why not wish her well and walk away gracefully since you appear not to conform to the traditional or reserved mindset? What do you see in her that you haven't come across in other women? I wouldn't exactly call it pursuing her for 2 months, I enjoy the time spent with her, no rush. Some of the replies on this board got pretty ugly, i.e.. trying to rush into sex, interjecting sexual assault, etc., when my top post (providing the info given) was whether I'm being friend zoned or if there's an attraction. Agree to your point, walk away if our dating conditions differ, but instead I'm at the mindset that this is platonic as I enjoy time spent with her. Good reply, thanks.
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