Mixed messages

[smackie9]

Smackie9-Dude I know you what you're saying and I appreciate how straight up you're being but I can't help how I feel hence why I came looking for some guidance. I appreciate I overthink things but that is unapologetically just the way am.

 

 

Yes you can if you really make yourself try. I don't think having everyone analyzing her is being helpful...I feel all it's doing is enabling your inability to let go and more forward.

[preraph]

Helping her with insecurity, not to mention narcissistic tendencies, is well above your pay grade. These things develop and are hard-wired from childhood. No amount of reason works on the insecure personality. And she has precious little empathy for you, so don't go wasting that on her.

[rg88]

Downtown-'This was never possible for any extended period' I totally agree its amazes me just how much her negativity took a toll on me even in such a short amount of time. I really hoped things could have been different but I am at the acceptance stage now and this has all taught me a great lesson for future relationships.

 

Iveseenbetterlol- what exactly was it that this guy was finding himself so insecure about? Personally I'm still mythed by what this particular girl had to be so insecure about she ticked alot of boxes for me initially but had been so emotionally crippled by her hang ups that towards the end of the relationship I remember recalling losing nearly all attraction for her as all I could associate her with was this negativity.

 

Preraph-You're right and I half regret now having not being the one to call if off before when I had a chance. To me its incredible that things got this intense after 4 months of dating I appreciate every relationship is different but how much would you expect from someone you were dating for a similar amount of time?

[Maggiemay1]

Oh please!!!

Stop trying to diagnose her with a mental illness when even a qualified psychologist could not do that based on a biased perception/ relaying of occurrences.

 

The simple view imo is that you had different communication styles or lack of. Spoke different love languages , she expected that if you loved her you would do x , y or z.

Google the 5 love languages and you might understand.

 

As for the wedding scenario , she kind of has a point. You were on whatsapp which is a messaging app. You have told us that you didn’t message her simply because you were busy enjoying yourself, however you were at best reading other people’s messages and at worst sending others messages while not messaging her. So you essentially did in the moment forget about her?

 

As for feeling “compelled” to message her simply because you saw her? Why?

You didn’t feel compelled , you simply wanted to and used the excuse of seeing her as a reason to. Right???

 

I agree with whoever said you poked the bear!

 

You are both playing games. You are incompatible and that’s all.

Remove her from social media. Why have you not already??

[Downtown]

Oh please!!! Stop trying to diagnose her with a mental illness.

Maggie, nobody has done that on this thread. You're confusing spotting warning signs with making a diagnosis. There is a world of difference between the two.

 

Hundreds of mental health centers list the symptoms for BPD and other disorders on their public websites to encourage the lay public to learn how to spot warning signs. They know that, when laymen are able to spot these warning signs, they are far more likely to see a professional to obtain a diagnosis -- for themselves and for their loved ones -- and they will do so more quickly.

 

Moreover, nobody on the planet can do a real diagnosis of BPD or any other PD. That would require professionals to identify its cause, which is yet unproven. All discussions of BPD traits, then, are simply descriptions of behavioral symptoms.

 

Those symptoms do not describe the traits or characteristics of the underlying disorder causing the symptoms. Hence, discussing BPD behavioral symptoms is not an attempt to diagnose the underlying disorder -- i.e., not in the way the term "diagnose" is generally used in every medical field.

 

Importantly, you don't go to a medical doctor to be told what symptoms you have. Instead, YOU tell the doctor all about your symptoms. Similarly, when you go to an auto repair shop, you don't go to be told about your car's symptoms. Rather, YOU tell the repairman what problems the car is exhibiting and he diagnoses the situation to tell you what is causing those symptoms to occur.

 

Hence, whereas diagnosing a cause is the province of professionals, describing and identifying symptoms is the province of laymen (i.e., the client seeking help). This is why, when a patient is unable to identify disease symptoms, that disease is said to be "asymptomatic," i.e., "without symptoms." By definition, then, symptoms are traits that laymen are able to spot.

[Maggiemay1]

Maggie, nobody has done that on this thread. You're confusing spotting warning signs with making a diagnosis. There is a world of difference between the two.

 

Hence, whereas diagnosing a cause is the province of professionals, describing and identifying symptoms is the province of laymen (i.e., the client seeking help). This is why, when a patient is unable to identify disease symptoms, that disease is said to be "asymptomatic," i.e., "without symptoms." By definition, then, symptoms are traits that laymen are able to spot.

 

I work in the medical field and it seems you are confusing symptoms with signs.

A symptom can only be expressed by the sufferer. Not their partner or mother of a 1 yr old etc

A sign is what others observe but it is not a symptom.

And ONLY a clinical diagnosis can be attempted with BOTH signs and symptoms plus clinical tests.

 

You also seem to misunderstand what asymptomatic means.

To make it easy , I’ll describe someone who has chlamydia for example.

When chlamydia is symptomatic , the patient describes their symptom which is a genital discharge. When there is no discharge it is considered asymptomatic. In that case there are also no signs because a Dr can’t see a discharge.

And then a diagnosis is made by lab tests only.

 

But really , what is the point in discussing signs and symptoms of a mental illness here? Well we can’t discuss symptoms anyway without input from the ex gf in question!

And really is it a mental illness or just irrational behaviour because of simple poor communication and incompatibility?

 

Within early dating the only signs people need to see are actions that don’t sit well with them. And don’t continue to date that person because of them!

 

I don’t believe it’s helpful to the OP to try and make him look for reasons of mental instability in his ex. She may go on to find a compatible partner where there are none of these issues. As hopefully the OP will.

[elaine567]

It used to be thought the Borderline sufferers were drawn to psychopaths/sociopaths and other abusers, now current thinking is that the Borderline disorder is actually caused by the toxic relationship.

BPD is the normal reaction to having to live in a very dysfunctional environment.

 

Many people have relationships that are perhaps not extremely dysfunctional but are bad enough to cause them mental pain. Some people go literally crazy in bad relationships, and as soon as they manage to extricate themselves, their "madness" is remarkably cured.

 

I agree with Maggie May that once signs show up that are incompatible with a happy relationship, then that is the time to leave. Dating is all about finding compatibility, it is not about finding someone and then trying to shape them into who we really want, nor is it about "saving" anyone.

We do neither ourselves nor that other person any favours.

[Maggiemay1]

It used to be thought the Borderline sufferers were drawn to psychopaths/sociopaths and other abusers, now current thinking is that the Borderline disorder is actually caused by the toxic relationship.

BPD is the normal reaction to having to live in a very dysfunctional environment.

 

Many people have relationships that are perhaps not extremely dysfunctional but are bad enough to cause them mental pain. Some people go literally crazy in bad relationships, and as soon as they manage to extricate themselves, their "madness" is remarkably cured.

 

I agree with Maggie May that once signs show up that are incompatible with a happy relationship, then that is the time to leave. Dating is all about finding compatibility, it is not about finding someone and then trying to shape them into who we really want, nor is it about "saving" anyone.

We do neither ourselves nor that other person any favours.

 

Best post I have read ever!!!!

Very well delivered Elaine! I admire your intelligence!

 

There are many people that will call their ex “crazy” and some that will go to the extent of labelling them with some sort of mental illness. I guess in order to make themself feel better or justified about the break up. And yet their exes are now in happy relationships while they still complain about their current one??

 

That has to be food for thought!! Surely!!

 

I am certain that there are numerous happily married people that cringe when they think how they acted in previous relationships. But was it an action or a reaction? My guess is the latter although there is the likelihood of maturity.

 

OP, look at the big picture. Stop trying to look for someone to blame , but rather think logically. Stop trying to second guess another’s opinion and just deal with the fact that it is over. The why doesn’t matter now.

[Downtown]

What is the point in discussing signs and symptoms of a mental illness here?

Maggie, the beauty of this LoveShack forum is that it allows members to share their various experiences on a topic set by the OP (RG). The OP then can pick the responses that he finds most helpful in his current situation.

 

It therefore is inappropriate to try to shut down a discussion that the OP has found very helpful. RG states above, "Guys can I just take a moment to thank everyone for their replies this has been invaluable to me and unless I had reached out think that I would have been tearing my hair out for an indefinite amount of time trying to fathom this all out."

 

In his first post, RG establishes the topic: "This has left me bewildered and confused. I was wondering if I could get some opinions on what this all means?" In my experience, the easiest way to understand basic human behavior is to look not at one behavior (e.g., temper tantrums) but, rather, at the full pattern of strong behaviors that are occurring.

 

Significantly, all adults exhibit a number of common behavioral patterns to varying degrees throughout their lifetimes. If you want to understand human behavior, it is important to learn those basic patterns. Granted, when the behavior pattern is extreme and persistent, it is called a "disorder."

 

Yet, because we all sometimes get flareups in our behavior patterns (e.g., from stress, drugs, or hormone changes), most strong occurrences of these behavioral patterns do not constitute a lifetime "disorder." As I noted above, only a professional can determine when one's behavioral pattern is so severe and so persistent as to constitute a lifetime "disorder."

 

This does not imply, however, that laymen cannot recognize these behavior patterns. On the contrary, before RG graduated high school, he already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. He could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD.

 

Likewise, RG could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And he could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, he will be able to spot strong BPD traits whenever they occur.

 

Learning to spot these symptoms and signs is important if RG wants to understand basic human behavior. Indeed, the reason that the ten personality disorders are called "spectrum disorders" is that we all exhibit these behavior patterns to some extent. And we all get temporary flareups in these behavior patterns (e.g., BPD, NPD, and AvPD) due to enormous stress, hormone changes, or drugs. Indeed, so many of us behave like pwBPD during our early teens that psychologists usually refuse to diagnose BPD until a person has reached 18.

 

Skip Johnson (Exec. Director of BPDfamily.com) explains, "Personality disorders are spectrum disorders, meaning that there is a broad range or spectrum of severity." See BPDfamily. That range extends from normal to severe. This means that, like selfishness and resentment, BPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree. Dr. C. E. Zupanick explains why the psychiatric community is now moving to a diagnostic manual showing that PDs apply to everyone because we all exhibit these traits to some degree. He writes:

 

Most psychiatric disorders are evidenced by a complete and total deviation from normal and healthy functioning. Clearly, Major Depression, Schizophrenia, and PTSD are not found in the vast majority of people. Either you have these disorders, or you do not. You can't have a wee bit of Schizophrenia. You might liken this to an ordinary light switch: either it's on, or it's off. However, unlike schizophrenia, everyone has a personality and you can indeed have a wee bit of nearly any personality trait. In this respect, personality represents a continuum, ranging from healthy to disordered.

See

Zupanick, Psy.D.

 

It therefore was a mistake for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein a client is deemed "to have" or "not have" BPD. Of course, a substantial segment of the psychiatric community knew in 1980 that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. They knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

 

They adopted this approach only because the insurance companies (and the courts) -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnoses from the medical community -- were pressing for a single, bright line. They are in the process of replacing this dichotomous approach with a graduated approach (e.g., normal, mild, moderate, strong, severe). It appears in Section 3 of DSM-5 to encourage empirical testing before it is adopted.

 

It seems you are confusing symptoms with signs. A symptom can only be expressed by the sufferer.... A sign is what others observe but it is not a symptom.

Yes, in the medical field, a symptom is any subjective evidence of disease, while a sign is any objective evidence of disease. Hence, a symptom is a phenomenon that is experienced by the individual affected by the disease, while a sign is a phenomenon that can be detected by someone else.

 

That medical distinction largely disappears, however, in the definition of personality disorder traits. For BPD, for example, the DSM-5 lists 9 traits. They are a mixture of signs and symptoms and the distinction is blurred and not always clear. This is why, at the hundreds of mental health websites, the 9 BPD traits are sometimes described as "symptoms" and sometimes as "signs and symptoms."

Edited September 3, 2019 by Downtown

[Maggiemay1]

Downtown,

 

I appreciate the fact that you were in a relationship with someone with BPD. And I can only assume you have done endless google research into it.

 

But I personally am not sure of the relevance to the OP. That’s fine , as you say it’s up to the OP to decide what to take from the thread and what to dismiss.

 

I simply was putting out there a differential diagnosis if you like to use medical terms.

 

The best medical Drs out there are the ones that consider the differential diagnosis.

Becoming too focused on the possibility of one is where one fails.

 

At worst the OP’s ex has BPD , at best she is just immature and had a non understanding of healthy relationships and boundaries.

 

I wasn’t dismissing your attempt to warn him of BPD , my point is basically that it doesn’t matter.

He doesn’t need to look for the signs now or in future relationships, he just needs to realise it’s ok for him to set boundaries and what he will and won’t tolerate.

[Downtown]

I wasn’t dismissing your attempt to warn him of BPD , my point is basically that it doesn’t matter.

Maggie, I understood that to be your main point because you wrote about it so articulately. For most relationships, I would agree with you. For the 12% of relationships containing a pwBPD, however, it can be very important that the abused partner be able to recognize the warning signs.

 

As I noted above, a large share of the abused partners of pwBPD become so utterly confused that they feel like they may be going insane. Because pwBPD typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths.

 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. Therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning. I therefore am not surprised that RG concludes above, "Unless I had reached out I think that I would have been tearing my hair out for an indefinite amount of time trying to fathom this all out."

 

Until you've been in an intimate relationship with a pwBPD, it is difficult to imagine how very easy a typical pwBPD is to fall in love with -- and very painful to walk away from. A pwBPD typically exhibits the warmth, spontaneity, vulnerability, and purity of expressions that otherwise are seen only in young children.

 

As any parent can tell you, young children are VERY EASY to fall in love with. It thus is not surprising that two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct.

 

Indeed, it is this childlike behavior that makes most pwBPD so hard to walk away from. Because the abused partner is essentially in a parent/child relationship, leaving is so painful because it feels like you're abandoning a young child who -- despite his/her frequent temper tantrums -- must dearly love and need you.

 

In my experience, the quickest way to break free from the guilt holding a person in this dysfunctional relationship is to get a better understanding of what you're dealing with.

Edited September 4, 2019 by Downtown

[Tess155]

On 9/1/2019 at 7:30 PM, Downtown said:

RG, the four behaviors described above are red flags for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your exGF has full-blown BPD. Only a professional can determine that. Instead, I'm suggesting you consider whether she may be exhibiting a strong pattern of BPD symptoms (i.e., may be a "pwBPD").

 

 

Your "walking on eggshells" is an enbabling behavior that was harmful to both of you. It harmed you because, by not behaving like your true self, you were starting to lose touch with the man you truly are. It was harmful to her because, by allowing her to behave like a spoiled child and get away with it, you were destroying her opportunities to confront her issues and learn how to manage them.

 

This is why it is important she be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad behavior and bad choices. And this is why the best-selling BPD book (published in 8 languages and targeted to the abused partners) is titled, Stop Walking on Eggshells.

 

If your exGF actually is a pwBPD, she carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that triggers a release of anger that is already there.

 

This is why a pwBPD can burst into a rage in only ten seconds. Moreover, pwBPD have very weak control over their emotions. Indeed, the key defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions.

 

 

As Watercolors explained so well above, you're describing a woman who is so emotionally immature that she lacks "object constancy" -- i.e., is unable to realize that you have essentially the same personality and same feelings about her from day to day. Instead, she perceives you as either "all good" or "all bad."

 

If your exGF is a pwBPD, that unstable behavior is to be expected. She is capable of loving you very intensely but it is the very immature type of love you see in young children. This means she will occasionally flip -- in only ten seconds -- from Jekyll (adoring you) to Hyde (devaluing or hating you). And a few hours or days later, she can flip back again just as quickly. These rapid flips arise from a childish behavior called "black-white thinking."

 

Like a young child, a pwBPD is too emotionally immature to be able to handle strong conflicting feelings (e.g., love and hate). This means she has great difficulty tolerating ambiguities, uncertainties, and the other gray areas of close interpersonal relationships.

 

She thus will subconsciously split off the conflicting feeling, putting it far out of reach of her conscious mind. With young children, this "splitting" is evident when the child will adore Daddy while he's bringing out the toys but, in only ten seconds, will flip to hating Daddy when he takes one toy away.

 

Importantly, this behavior does not mean that the child has stopped loving Daddy. Rather, it means that her conscious mind is temporarily out of touch with those loving feelings.

 

Similarly, a pwBPD will categorize everyone close to her as "all good" ("with me") or "all bad" ("against me"). And she will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in just ten seconds -- based solely on a minor comment or action.

 

This B-W thinking also will be evident in her frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions such as "You NEVER..." and "You ALWAYS...." Because her close friends eventually will be "split black," it is unusual for a BPDer to have any really close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away) even though she may have many casual friends.

 

 

 

RG, if you were dating a pwBPD, it is not surprising you were questioning your own sanity. A large share of the abused partners in BPD relationships start to feel like they may be going crazy. Because a pwBPD typically is convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of her mouth is absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths.

 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. Therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the pwBPD themselves.

 

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore her to that wonderful sweet woman you saw at the very beginning.

 

 

The vast majority of pwBPD are "high functioning" -- i.e., they typically hold jobs and generally get along okay with coworkers, clients, casual friends, and total strangers. None of those people is able to trigger the BPDer's fears of abandonment and engulfment.

 

There is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy to trigger the suffocating feeling of engulfment. Granted, she may complain to you about her coworkers but she likely did not reveal her dark side to them. As noted above, those folks don't pose a threat to her two big fears.

 

Hence, with most pwBPD, the strong BPD symptoms usually appear only when someone makes the mistake of drawing very close to the pwBPD. This is why it is common for high functioning pwBPD to excel in very difficult jobs such as being a social worker, nurse, teacher, surgeon, actor, or salesman. And this is why most pwBPD can be considerate and friendly all day long to complete strangers -- but will go home at night to abuse the very people who love them.

 

 

A pwBPD usually is very easy to fall in love with -- and very painful to walk away from. A pwBPD typically exhibits the warmth, spontaneity, vulnerability, and purity of expressions that otherwise are seen only in young children.

 

As any parent can tell you, young children are VERY EASY to fall in love with. It thus is not surprising that two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct.

 

Indeed, it is this childlike behavior that makes most pwBPD very hard to walk away from. Because you are essentially in a parent/child relationship, leaving is so painful because it feels like you're abandoning a young child who -- despite her frequent temper tantrums -- must dearly love and need you.

 

Hence, if you ever feel tempted to reconcile with her, it would be wise to immediately see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what you're dealing with.

 

Of course, learning to spot BPD warning signs will not enable you to diagnose her issues by yourself. Although strong BPD symptoms are easy to spot, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe and persistent as to constitute a full-blown disorder.

 

Yet, like learning warning signs for a stroke or heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., remaining in a toxic relationship or running into the arms of another woman just like her. Learning the red flags also can help you decide when professional guidance is needed.

 

I therefore suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so and you have questions, RG, I would be glad to discuss them with you.

Blimey, this sounds so like my gf.  I’m very worried about myself as I’m finding it difficult to let her go, just as you described.