Work It Out?

[OatsAndHall]

I've been dating a woman for over a month and things went south in a hurry last week. Before I get into that, I'll paint a picture of the landscape:

 

 

The Good:

-She's extremely intelligent, well spoken and intuitive. We have fantastic conversations over just about anything and everything; we've spent three hours on the phone chatting at times. It's been a long time since I've met a woman who I has sparked this level of intellectualism and I'm ecstatic. We have virtually identical political and religious views which makes for some wonderful talks.

 

 

 

-We have similar interests in terms of hobbies; we haven't had a hard time finding things to do together. We both love hiking, have the same taste in music, television/movies and food. We've spent a few days out in the mountains and it's been fun and relaxing.

 

 

 

-At her core, I believe she is a kind and caring woman. I had a birthday recently and she went out of her way to make it a wonderful day for me. This is just one of several examples of this trait and I appreciate it and reciprocate.

 

 

 

The Bad:

-She has no concept of a schedule to the point where I wonder if she respects other people's time. At first, I thought she was just a bit scattered but I've come to realize that she operates on her own timeline. On two different occasions, I have been late to other obligations because we've been hanging out together and she's made a conscious choice that has made me late. Bear in mind that I have told her about these previous obligations well ahead of time, reminded her of them and I was still late.

 

 

-She gets angry when she has to work on a schedule, I learned early on to allow her to set times for meeting up but there have been times where she is still late. Most of this is due to poor time management on her part; she sets a time for us to meet up, she has all day to run errands but she procrastinates until the last minute and then is scrambling to meet up at the time she has set. This puts her in a bad mood, it's obvious and our time together can be uncomfortable.

 

 

 

-She will lash out when she's stressed out. We decided on an impromptu trip to the mountains one morning and we headed out in her car. It started to make funny squealing noises and I suggested that we have it looked at before we left town. I have a friend who is a mechanic and is very good and could check it for us quickly. She became angry out of the blue and said "You're freaking me out over my car!!" I told her she should be freaked out as the car wasn't supposed to be making those noises. It didn't turn out to be anything serious but it needed to be checked out. This is just one of several examples of her getting angry and confrontational at the drop of a hat.

 

 

All of this piled up over the space of a few days and it was obvious we were getting frustrated with one another. So we took time away from one another to collect our thoughts. She called me last night so we could talk about things and the conversation didn't go well. Things that came out:

 

 

-She said she's been stressed out because she feels "controlled" by being on a schedule. Bear in mind that a) she establishes the time when it's convenient to meet up and b) I'm clear about other the other obligations I have beforehand. It's not like I'm coming up with a friggin' itinerary for her to follow; she sets a time when we meet and, if I have other things going on, I let her know when I need to be done. "Alright, so you want to get together at 10am, great! I'm meeting family at 530pm so I just need to be done/back in town by then."

 

 

 

She's much more comfortable with "letting me know." Example; "I'll let you know when I'm done with my stuff and then we'll meet up. I should be ready by around 6pm." She finally texted me at 830pm that night; I wasn't happy.

 

 

 

-She's frustrated because she has a lot of home improvement projects going on but has spent a lot of time with me. I told her that all she had to say was "Hey, I can't hang out because I have ___, ____, and ____ going on." I haven't imposed myself on her or made her feel like she HAS to hang out with me. I know she has these projects going on and have even offered to help her out if she wants. But, this all came out in an accusatory manner: "I haven't been able to get my stuff done because I'm with you!"

 

 

 

-She doesn't like that I'm not "spontaneous" which is true, I'm really not. I realized early on that she operates this way, have jumped on board and had a good time. But, I will admit, I have been hesitant to make impromptu plans knowing that she can be scattered. It'd be much easier for me to pick up sticks and go on an unplanned out-of-town trip if I didn't wonder if I was going to end up driving home at midnight..

 

 

 

Needless to say, we both ended up frustrated by the conversation and it started to turn into a fight. So, we got off of the phone and agreed to talk about it today. I realize I have grown more emotionally attached to her than I should have over the last month; the good times we've had together over the last month have been great. But, we're both growing frustrated with the differences in how we operate, day by day. I've told her that I can work on being more "spontaneous" but that I need her to be courteous of my time. I told her that I can't have any more situations where I'm late to something because she doesn't "like schedules."

 

 

I'm really wondering if it isn't just best to pull the plug on this. I could easily see us pulling hard to stay together, becoming more emotionally involved with one another and then having it end in a spectacularly bad fashion..

[preraph]

Yeah. And by "spontaneous," she means willing to do whatever she wants whenever she finally gets around to doing it.

 

Look, she will keep being unreliable until she has negative consequences for it. Don't be ridiculous and wait for her long enough to miss your next appointment, just get up and leave and let her show up. "Sorry, I realized you were so late that I had to leave and run as fast as I could to the next appointment. I didn't have time to discuss it with you because YOU were so late."

[d0nnivain]

She's not going to change. She will always have a fluid relationship with time. The Q is do you want to put up with this?

[preraph]

She's gaslighting you by trying to make you seem pathetic because you're not "spontaneous." I had, past tense, a friend who did that. Look up gaslighting and how to counter it. And remember, she knows perfectly well what the socially accepted norms are about being on time and that she is the one at fault, so don't let her disrespect you like that. And remember, they will go around telling other people you have no life or you're no fun because you're not spontaneous, so look out for her doing that. Remind her that the social norm is to not make plans she can't be on time for and that it's disrespectful.

 

Also, maybe she feels you want to spend more time than she wants to, so I would just stop asking her to do as much, but I also would NOT let her just stop by and drag you to do something last minute. Just tell her, sorry, can't, I'm busy, you'll need to call ahead next time.

[Ruby Slippers]

In my experience, people who are habitually late or bad at keeping plans at certain times take years and years to change, if they ever do. I've never dated anyone like this, but one of my best friends in college was this way. I eventually stopped hanging out with her when being on time mattered, and it was only after many years that she worked on the issue and improved. She told me she had to make a conscious decision to change, then put in place all kinds of tactics to keep herself in line.

 

So I think you're going to have to either accept her as she is, or accept that you can't accept it and move on.

 

One thing jumped out at me, though:

On two different occasions, I have been late to other obligations because we've been hanging out together and she's made a conscious choice that has made me late. Bear in mind that I have told her about these previous obligations well ahead of time, reminded her of them and I was still late.

This is on you. If you need to leave at X time, make it clear you will be leaving at X time, and then do not bend on it.

 

I had to do this with my last boyfriend. He sometimes worked late, and I was very firm about needing to be in bed on my way to sleep by X time. Sometimes he'd try to push it by getting home right around my bedtime and trying to keep me up for a while. Eventually, I learned to turn off all the lights in the house, put in my earplugs, and get in bed at my bedtime, without even entertaining the option of staying up late. I told him that if he couldn't come to bed quietly once I was already on my way to sleep, he could sleep on the couch or go home. So he adapted.

 

Example; "I'll let you know when I'm done with my stuff and then we'll meet up. I should be ready by around 6pm." She finally texted me at 830pm that night; I wasn't happy.

If that's too late for you, decline the invitation and tell her you can get together another day when she can make it earlier.

 

These are the kind of people who will take a mile or several hundred miles if you give them an inch. You've got to set firm, clear boundaries and STICK TO THEM.

[OatsAndHall]

She had been working at operating under a basic schedule while we we've been together. And, I acknowledged this and told her I appreciated it. But, being told that she doesn't like me "controlling" her with a schedule doesn't sit right with me, at all. Asking someone to set a time and be there isn't controlling. I'm trying not to be reactive and angry about that statement.

 

 

 

This might sound bad, but this kind of uncharted dating territory for me. I haven't had patience for flakiness like this with other women and have called things off amicably. But, this is a struggle for me as I truly care about her and a part of me feels like I'll be throwing away a good thing. Especially because she has worked on it.

[PRW]

We have fantastic conversations over just about anything and everything; we've spent three hours on the phone chatting at times.

That is too long on the phone. Spend that time in person.

 

It's been a long time since I've met a woman who I has sparked this level of intellectualism and I'm ecstatic.

Don't be ecstatic. Be self-controlled. Ecstatic is out-of-control and leads to bad decisions.

 

Look at your list again with out it being surrounded by excuses and justifications:

 

1. She has no concept of a schedule to the point where I wonder if she respects other people's time.
   
2. She gets angry when she has to work on a schedule
   
3. She will lash out when she's stressed out.
   
4. She became angry out of the blue and said "You're freaking me out over my car!!"
   
5. She said she's been stressed out because she feels "controlled" by being on a schedule.
   
6. She's much more comfortable with "letting me know." Example; "I'll let you know when I'm done with my stuff and then we'll meet up.I should be ready by around 6pm." (Then shows up at 830pm)
   
7. She doesn't like that I'm not "spontaneous"
   

This is my list of observations:

 

• She is "broken" to some point, how severe I am not sure.
  
• She doesn't respect other people's time
  
• She is selfish. Possibly narcissistic. With a narcissist they gaslight you and make it all YOUR fault.
  
  • It isn't her time management that is the problem, the problem is YOU holding her to a schedule.
    
  • She isn't stressed out because she can't manage her time, She is stressed out because YOU are controlling.
    
  • It isn't that the car needs a problem looked at so you don't get stranded, the problem is YOU freaking her out about it.
    
  • The problem isn't her being irresponsible, it is YOU not being spontaneous.
    
  • You, you, you, you
    

   

[preraph]

Tell her that it's very disrespectful to leave people hanging and be late with no regard for their own plans. Tell her expecting her to respect your time is not being controlling, but that her disrespecting it and just leaving you hanging certainly is.

[preraph]

I had one younger friend who was always starting plans with me and then messing them up, but oh, yes, the guy she used to be with and carried a torch for still, she could be on time for him, even driving across Texas.

 

Well, she had a lot of problems and saw a therapist, and she actually got a carte blanche to be late all the time because the therapist told her it was a facet of some condition. Well, yeah, but she could be on time when she wanted to bad enough to cater to some guy. I bet she didn't tell the therapist that. Me and her other old friend kind of started fading away from her after that convo and she used to ask to stay with the other friend when in town to see this guy she used to be with now married and has a kid and not interested in her that way in a long time) and my friend just started telling her no because she never showed up sometimes at all and sometimes just hours later and my friend has a family, so she put a stop to it and then I stopped taking her emails when she tried to jack me up as a second choice.

[OatsAndHall]

She's gaslighting you by trying to make you seem pathetic because you're not "spontaneous." I had, past tense, a friend who did that. Look up gaslighting and how to counter it. And remember, she knows perfectly well what the socially accepted norms are about being on time and that she is the one at fault, so don't let her disrespect you like that. And remember, they will go around telling other people you have no life or you're no fun because you're not spontaneous, so look out for her doing that. Remind her that the social norm is to not make plans she can't be on time for and that it's disrespectful.

 

Also, maybe she feels you want to spend more time than she wants to, so I would just stop asking her to do as much, but I also would NOT let her just stop by and drag you to do something last minute. Just tell her, sorry, can't, I'm busy, you'll need to call ahead next time.

 

 

I don't think she's gaslighting me: I've had plenty of experience with that. Her comment about me not being "spontaneous" was born out of a situation a few weeks back.

 

 

I had stayed the night at her place and, at around noon, she suggested we go camping a few away. I was -sort of- upfront with her about not wanting to go on short notice at the time and told her that I'd like to make those kinds of plans a head of time

 

 

This came up in our conversation on the phone and I told her that I would've loved to head out camping but that I wasn't going to commit to those types of plans with the way she operates. We would've been lucky to be set up at the camp site by sundown with as scattered as she can be.

[OatsAndHall]

This is on you. If you need to leave at X time, make it clear you will be leaving at X time, and then do not bend on it.

 

 

I would have but she had driven both times. I should've just driven myself after she pulled this the first time but she apologized for it and said it wouldn't happen again. But, yes, if we stay together, I will be driving myself.

[preraph]

So if she thinks you're controlling because you're asking her to work on it, be sure you're not getting into details. Like don't try micromanaging her and become her daddy. She is probably just lashing out as I assume you have better sense than to let it go that far that you're bossing her around, but you have every right to simply not reward her with being there for her after she has disrespected you by being late. Seriously, the best thing is to just leave. If she texts at the 11th hour but is already 30 minutes late, you tell her, I've already left. I'm not sitting here all day waiting for you.

[kendahke]

This is the one who wanted you to pick her up from the airport like you were her assistant?

 

She's high maintenance and self-centered; you and your needs don't seem to matter to her, so why even deal with someone like that? There's someone out there who won't mind being at her beck and call all the time. Seems that guy isn't you, despite how much you'd have like to have seen this work out.

Edited August 6, 2019 by kendahke

[Gretchen12]

Let's see...

 

" she gets angry...

... this puts her in a bad mood...

she will lash out...

... she became angry out of the blue...

she said she's been stressed out ..."

 

Miss Grumpy here does not sound like the free-spirited spontaneous gal she wishes to be. The result is someone who doesn't feel good about herself.

 

You on the other hand, seem to have good self knowledge. You know you like to plan and you like the way you are.

 

She is unhappy because she is actually a stressful person. That's different from a relaxed person dealing with a stressful incident. The closer you get to her, the more she will blame you for her stress. There will be more anger and lashing out.

 

The first month of dating you are still getting acquainted. That's why people often call it quits after one to three months of dating. If you really want to work it out, reduce the amount of time you interact (meetings, phone calls, texts, etc.) Don't be "in her life" too much at this stage. See if she's just going through a phase.

[Lotsgoingon]

Oh man, there's so much you guys have in common ... but from the sounds of it ... this pattern of hers is unlikely to change.

 

I'm fine with people running 5 to 10 minutes late ... as long as they notify me ... I'm often running 5 to 10 minutes late ... But this woman is running not just late ... but from the sounds of it ... off any kind of schedule.

 

Her lashing out at you when she had the car problem--that's a huge red flag. You were HELPING her ... You were being creative and helpful ... recommending your friend ... looking ahead ... preventing catastrophe or just a major inconvenience later on ... and she lashed out at you.

 

Really you want someone who in that moment can thank you profusely ... and be very very grateful. And this is still early, when she's supposedly still on her best behavior ... Sorry ... but probably time to stop.

[Flame Aura]

She sounds a lot like me with the timekeeping...

 

 

I annoyed my girlfriend a lot of times because of it. In the end she made a 'late jar' and every time I am late anywhere to meet her, I need to give her £10 to put into it.. think there is £30 in there now.. if I'm late one more time it goes up to £20

 

 

You can bet I'm trying my hardest to be on time now!

[frus69]

the cons list is significantly longer than the pro...

[preraph]

Hahaha! That's one way to go about it!

[Curiousroxy86]

Hm if it were me. This is what I would/could do and you can decide for yourself how to handle

It and how it can be applicable to your situation.

 

He was late the first time

I would let it go

 

Late for the second time I would make a request “honey I enjoy the time we spend together and I would really love it if when we plan something we try to make it on time. That’s important to me. Would you be willing to do that for me babe?” If he doesn’t respond favorably then I have a decision to make. Accept this is the way he is and find ways to cope or let him go.

 

If I decide to accept I could do several things to accept and cope. If it’s something that’s not a big deal well we get there when we get there together. If it’s soemthing I don’t want to be late for like a show or meeting people waiting then we take separate cars, I will make it on time, and he arrives when he arrives. Or if it’s something not that important for me to be there on time but I don’t want to wait for him by myself or don’t want to wait for him to make it on time together then we take separate cars and I don’t bother stop doing what I enjoy until he says he is leaving/already there and then I would leave and we either make it time together or he would have to wait on me to get there lol. Or...

 

If I can’t accept this about him then I would just break up.

 

If he was confrontational. Well it takes two to argue. You don’t have to argue or feed someone being argumentative. Be the solution not the problem.

 

So first thing. I believe when there is a conflict you want to make sweet requests and not say things in an inflammatory accusatory way. Instead of “when you do xyz I feel disrespected/I feel inconvenienced”. Instead I would say “I would love it if you xyz. Are you willing to do that for me babe?” It’s an invitation. It’s a choice. Not a demand. Most of the time with this alone a good partner will say yes or compromise. However If they don’t respond favorably well what you don’t do is keep pushing your own way or keep on with your opposing argument. They gave their answer the first time. Staying with your point doesn’t make anybody want to comply. So what you can do is ask for a resolution that benefits both of you in a sweet way “I understand where are you coming from. Would you be willing to do xyz instead?” or you end the argument even if there is no agreement “I understand where you are coming from but let’s agree to disagree” or “we both said what we had to say let’s agree to disagree”. This is a good strategy if the other person wants to remain combative and uncooperative. But you still end up coming to the same road. Accept their answer and find ways to cope or breakup. If after you attempt to end an argument the person keeps on being confrontational or you can never come to a resolution no matter how level headed or they don’t want to compromise ever no matter how sweet your making requests especially if it’s important to you then I would breakup. Your dealing with a person that can’t be a good relationship partner period.

 

Good luck

[Highndry]

If you're already arguing this soon, it's never going to work.

[Logo]

Let's just say it doesn't sound like she does "teamwork" well.

 

 

If it's what works for her when it works for her, then you are going to be jumping through hoops to make this relationship work.

 

 

 

When a relationship turns into work, it's no longer a relationship I'd want to be a part of. I would rather be single and headache free.

[Maggiemay1]

You have only known her 30 days.

Too much drama already although I’m not sure who is creating it tbh.

 

If you make plans with someone but have to be somewhere else at a certain time , the responsibility is on you to get there, not hers or anyone else’s. So why you didn’t drive either meeting her at a place or picking her up is beyond me.

And yet you blame her for those incidences.

 

If you decide to go somewhere in her car and it makes noises , you could have turned back and took your car. But you should not have insisted she go to your mechanic friend that day. Her car , her responsibility.

And as it turned out it was nothing major anyway.

 

It sounds to me like you both have anxiety but different triggers?

And that makes for a poor match.

[Eternal Sunshine]

You are over-analysing this. Everyone will have something that annoys you. The most basic question is: are you into her not? Love is not a list pros and cons.

[jspice]

While I didn’t see the issue with the airport pick-up and checking the gate, these time issues are a problem. She’s always going to feel like you’re pressuring her while she’s trying to meet you halfway, and you’ll feel resentful that you’re trying to be more flexible but she doesn’t see it.

 

She doesn’t respect your time but you’ll have to figure out if this is the hill you want to die on.

In my experience, people who continually accuse me of not being spontaneous enough usually just mean that i don’t want to bend to their will. They don’t want to make the effort to make plans because they see their time as more valuable than mine.

 

Is this the kind of stress you want to have long term?

[OatsAndHall]

We had a conversation last night and it started out productive but degenerated into an argument that ultimately resulted in me calling it off. I did my best to remain calm and proactive but we both just ended up frustrated. We talked about the time management issue and then I asked her what she needed out of me to keep things going. Some of the stuff she mentioned was odd to me and I don't know if it was truly how she felt or if she was reaching for straws/gaslighting. Either way, I became defensive.

 

 

-She said she felt "smothered" and "controlled" by the amount of time we spent together. This bothered me as a) she's been out of town for about half of the time we've seen each other and b) I've never demanded that we hang out or ingratiated myself on her. She is right; we have spent quite a bit of time together, especially after I picked her up from the airport. She started inviting me to stay the night at her place after that so we ended up hanging out a lot. I continued to make plans with friends and family while we were dating and she was obviously free to do the same... In fact, she spent most of a weekend out of town with her sister, she invited me but I declined as I wanted her to enjoy her time with her sister.

 

 

 

-Apparently, my offering to help her out with her home projects was "being pushy". I brought this up twice and it was when she was freaking out about getting them done. This had nothing to do with me trying to spend more time with her; it was practicality. I had the time, she could use the help and we could have jammed out the projects quickly. Especially because I have experience with most of what she was working on. This brought up her point about not getting them done because she was hanging around with me. Once again, I told her she could've said "I've got a lot to do over the next couple of days so I won't be able to hang out." Or, better yet, we could have spent a day getting them done instead of going out of town. Spending a day caulking and sealing windows isn't exactly a romantic outing.

 

 

 

-The spontaneity argument came up again but this time with an example.. There was a free concert downtown that she brought up at like 8pm one night. I told her that we could certainly go down there if she wanted but she stated "Ahh, it's pretty hot out there, let's just hang out here." I told her that I'd gladly go down to the concert if she wanted to go but she shot it down within the same conversation. She said she sensed the "lack of enthusiasm" in my response which was probably true; I was only going because she wanted to. We'd both complained about the music scene in town several times as it was bringing out a drunk, rough crowd. But, I would have put a smile on my face, gone down there with her and enjoyed her company.

 

 

-She said that my "rigid" schedule was "controlling". She was referring to two things that I brought up when we first started dating. First of all, I don't eat past 6pm at night and secondly, I make sure I'm in bed by 10pm at night. I'm a a bit of an insomniac and eating later at night is a guarantee that I won't sleep. It sucks and I know it can be inconvenient for people who eat later. I've tried to be flexible with it but I always pay for it with a poor night's sleep. And, I'm almost 40 years old and not a night-owl, at all; I just can't keep my eyes open past 10pm.. But, I was never imposed these as demands on her. If we made dinner plans, I just asked that they were earlier than later. On several occasions, we ate separately and then hung out. If I was crashing at her place and was tired, I either fell asleep with her on the couch or crawled into the guest bedroom and she stayed up.

 

 

 

Throughout the conversation, I asked her to clarify with examples of when I was "pushy", "controlling" or "rigid" and she couldn't come up with any. She said the situations she described just "felt pushy, controlling, and rigid". So, either she was gaslighting me or we're just completely incompatible.

 

 

 

Either way, it was time to go our separate ways so we did, amicably.