Curiousroxy86 Posted June 30, 2019 Posted June 30, 2019 Ok so I’m actually asking for once feedback/advice about me and not picking y’all brains about a general topic lol. This hasn’t happened a lot thank God but sometimes I come across a guy in dating that for the time that I know them seems to be a really great guy. Don’t have anything bad to say about the guy except that I am just not attracted to them or have romantic feelings towards them. That’s not exactly a problem especially for them because I am sure they can and eventually will find a girl that is attracted....but the problem is that I feel so guilty about it to the point that I kinda am not in peace when I pass them on by and I am not exactly for sure what’s that about. It’s almost like internally I feel like it shouldn’t be a good reason to let go of a guy when I guess it is? I know mentally that attraction and chemistry has its place of importance because who would want to be in a relationship with someone who feels so so or less about you and the hurtful problems that can come from that. But it still really bothers me that I cut off a guy over that alone and nothing else. Anything else I can unapologetically justify passing by and not think twice nor look back. If he is disrespectful, long distance, flaky, a jerk, selfish, woman hating, super flirtatious, a cheater, into drugs, emotionally unstable, jobless car-less...like no brainers right? But when it’s a guy that you have a great time with, they are clearly interested, they want something serious, they got their head on straight so far, they are available....but just missing the romantic attraction? I struggle internally and THAT bothers me. What really kills me is they are not even “ugly” to me. Heck atleast when I can clearly identify that I don’t find them physically appealing I can just be okay with lack of attraction. I am going to have to want to kiss you if we are going to be in a romantic relationship. That I get. That I can justify. But when they are not even ugly that reaaaaaaally bothers me that I don’t like them like that as far as attraction goes. And I can’t put my finger on why. Yes they are not drop dead gorgeous but honestly I don’t need and have dated/been in relationships and been attracted to guys who wasn’t drop dead gorgeous. So I don’t think that is exactly it. I don’t have a type. I find many types of men of different skin colors, hair colors, eye colors, and builds attractive. So I don’t believe that’s it either. I guess this is what people mean that attraction is not a choice? I think part (if not all) of the struggle for me is that the guys that end up being my boyfriend were all those things I deemed “boyfriend material” at the beginning (aren’t they all) just like the guys I don’t have romantic feelings for EXCEPT the guys that became my boyfriend I did find attractive/had romantic feelings (except 1).....but of course they end up being the wrong guy for me hence why I am no longer with them. And I think there is part of me that feels like when I pass up a seemingly great guy no attraction that I could be passing up a guy that’s really right for me. As if no attraction = could be the right guy and attraction = more than likely wrong guy. Now I think I know better than that mentally. I think finding the right guy I find attractive is possible for me but my “feelings” is on some other ish lol. People say hey it’s just chemistry and can’t control it. And I’m sure that’s some truth to it...I just don’t know what to do about the feelings that come when that happens except feel it as I move on. Btw there was one boyfriend that when we met on the first date I was not attracted. He wasn’t super ugly but he wasn’t exactly handsome. We had a great time but I let him know when he tried to ask me out again that I wasn’t interested. He wanted me to give him another chance so I did and as we continued to date, spend time, talk on the phone and get to know each other slowly but surely I went from no attraction to liking him a lot and we became a couple. He was a great boyfriend and we had a great relationship for the most part but he had a very undesirable work schedule and conflict management was a no go unfortunately. And he was the ex before the recent narc ex. So it doesn’t help me now that there is “precedence” for trying to make it work with someone I wasn’t feeling it with yet I’m not exactly comfortable with the idea of holding on to a suitor that I know deep down I’m not attracted to for long periods of time. That just doesn’t seem to be fair to the guy and I know I sure as hell wouldn’t want a man pretending to like me and date me when deep down he is not attracted. That would just suck. So I try to go for three or four dates to ultimately make the decision because 1) there is “precendence”. 2) you hear lovely stories of happily long time married couples say “I didn’t like him/her at the beginning” and that feelings can grow 3) I insist on paying on 3rd/4th date (with any suitor that makes it that far) and don’t want to make a seemingly good man feel taken advantage of 4) just want to take a little bit of time to make sure I’m making a sound decision when the guy seems otherwise great. The only reason I continue to date that ex boyfriend I mentioned past 4 dates before we became exclusive was because he wanted me to give him another chance knowing how I felt at the time and he did grow on me. So anyhoo. 5 hours later (lol)...any advice/feed back is much appreciated And specific question to men...what would you rather a girl your trying to date do when she decides she is not attracted to you? End it immediately? Or should she give it some time to give her feelings about you a chance?
FMW Posted June 30, 2019 Posted June 30, 2019 Physical attraction catches attention first, but I think for most of us real attraction involves a lot more. Sometimes it's hard to put your finger on exactly what makes you want to keep seeing one person and have zero interest in another. You certainly shouldn't feel bad about lack of attraction, as you pointed out, everyone deserves someone who is really into them, so if you're not, it's in their best interest as well as your own for you to move along. When I've felt bad about giving someone a pass it's just about not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings and "reject" them, although I know they'll be quite fine without me I think women especially are taught to be nice and accommodating, so it's uncomfortable to make a choice that might make someone else feel bad, even if only fleetingly. 2
CautiouslyOptimistic Posted June 30, 2019 Posted June 30, 2019 Very true. I don't think men, generally speaking, feel any guilt about not being attracted to a woman. 3
Author Curiousroxy86 Posted June 30, 2019 Author Posted June 30, 2019 Physical attraction catches attention first, but I think for most of us real attraction involves a lot more. Sometimes it's hard to put your finger on exactly what makes you want to keep seeing one person and have zero interest in another. When I've felt bad about giving someone a pass it's just about not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings and "reject" them, although I know they'll be quite fine without me That is true about what you said concerning attraction. There is so much more that goes into attraction then how you look. I just haven’t identified what exactly turned me off about two guys I dated in the past except feelings of “not feeling it” which I guess is just plain ole chemistry. I guess that too is what bothers me is that I can’t put my finger on it. I think I would feel more comfortable if I knew exactly wth it was and in my mind becomes as justifiable as any other reason I would cut off a guy in dating. And your right I also don’t like the idea of rejecting a good guy. My “philosophy” (for a lack of better word) in dating is get rid of bad guys quickly and give the good guys a chance. I don’t condone/encourage dating bad boys. And when I meet a guy that’s seems like a good guy I really do hate to let the “good guy” go over something seemingly “shallow”. Just got to get over it.
Author Curiousroxy86 Posted June 30, 2019 Author Posted June 30, 2019 Very true. I don't think men, generally speaking, feel any guilt about not being attracted to a woman. I so agree It’s funny I don’t feel “unapologetic” about many things such as multi dating before exclusivity, taking my time to figure out if we become exclusive, cutting guys off for justifiable reasons....because one of the many reasons I and I think women really should is because men do it too. It’s not the only reason I do these things and think it’s wise for women to do but it is a factor though small. But this? I do it (end talking to someone I don’t have romantic feelings for) but it just bothers me Wish I could do it without guilt. 2
Ruby Slippers Posted June 30, 2019 Posted June 30, 2019 Guilt is the feeling that you should take care of someone else rather than yourself. But you have to take care of yourself first. Attraction goes much deeper than physical. It's about common interests, conversation, pheromones, so many underlying things. I've met some great on paper guys I just didn't feel any romantic attraction to, often because they were too "nice" and not flirtatious, or just didn't make good conversation. I think it's fine to give good guys a few dates to see if feelings change. But if you're not feeling it, it's best for everyone to move along.
schlumpy Posted June 30, 2019 Posted June 30, 2019 It’s almost like internally I feel like it shouldn’t be a good reason to let go of a guy when I guess it is? I struggle internally and THAT bothers me. I don’t have a type. I find many types of men of different skin colors, hair colors, eye colors, and builds attractive. I went from no attraction to liking him a lot and we became a couple. He was a great boyfriend and we had a great relationship for the most part And specific question to men...what would you rather a girl your trying to date do when she decides she is not attracted to you? End it immediately? Or should she give it some time to give her feelings about you a chance Most people set internal standards for themselves. Sometimes those are based on reality and sometimes it's just who we would like to be. Most people fall way short in the second category and that's Ok. We always need to strive to be more then what we are. The answer is inside of you so you are looking in the right place. If not liking or being neutral towards the opposite sex was a deal breaker then the obvious success rate for arranged marriages should reflect that but it doesn't although I realize the social dynamics are not the same. Many of the couples talk about learning to love him/her. I don't think I would try it but I can't say it doesn't work. Could it be that these guys you are disinterested in are marriage material and you aren't ready to take the plunge yet? Just a thought.
Lotsgoingon Posted June 30, 2019 Posted June 30, 2019 And specific question to men...what would you rather a girl your trying to date do when she decides she is not attracted to you? End it immediately? Or should she give it some time to give her feelings about you a chance? Wow I love this post! Yes, attraction can change (both ways) ... But in my experience, you can't will it ... The times when my attraction to someone has emerged are usually when I've known someone as an acquaintance for a while ... and then one day, bang! ... I see them differently--usually as a result of a fantastic conversation that had lots of flirty energy without me much trying. But if you're meeting people via online dating (which I totally endorse) you're not going to get a chance to hang with these guys you don't feel attracted to on a first meeting. So, you really won't have a chance for a new attraction to emerge. Sure, you can come to admire them, to like them, to appreciate them ... but often you'll just end up in a place of ambivalence. And, of course, the other person will feel that ambivalence even if you're not being a jerk ... They will end up posting on LS, and the rest of us will be chiming in to say, sorry, she's just not that into you. Relationships, if they are going to be work, need both people to be committed and overwhelmingly enthused. There is no guarantee of success when there is that overwhelming enthusiasm and passion and drive ... because we also need other good qualities to be in place. But there is near guarantee of failure when those feelings are missing even if good qualities in the other are present. Sometimes I have wondered ... what it would be like if one or two times in life you could press a button, make a wish, and become attracted to someone you really admire. 1
Author Curiousroxy86 Posted June 30, 2019 Author Posted June 30, 2019 Most people set internal standards for themselves. Sometimes those are based on reality and sometimes it's just who we would like to be. Most people fall way short in the second category and that's Ok. We always need to strive to be more then what we are. Could it be that these guys you are disinterested in are marriage material and you aren't ready to take the plunge yet? Just a thought. Can you explain what you mean by the first part in how it relates to my concern in this post. I think I understand what you are saying but I am not exactly for sure I do. Are you saying that I may want to be very open but that’s just not who I am? If so you are correct . I am not as open as I would want to be and I do try to relax and be open minded on some things and there are things where I am very black and white. I am okay with being black and white on the things that I am. It’s that undefinable gray that bothers me. So if I got all of that wrong please let me know lol. And to answer your question no I don’t think that is it at all. I want marriage material. I find qualities that lead to a fulfilling long term relationship/marriage attractive because that is what I desire and why I am even open to dating. I value men who are respectful, giving, sweet, relationship intelligent, empathetic, communicative, chilvarous, commitment oriented, sane lol..... In the beginning stages there is very little to go off of. A lot of those things that makes a man “marrriage material” is for the most part things you find out overtime when your actually in a relationship. So my conundrum is that at the beginning it’s suface level good indicators at the beginning. He is consistent, he tries to get to know me, he is chilvarous on the date, he seems like he has is head on straight and life together. Some of those guys I find attractive and some I do not. The ones I find attractive of course we hit it off and inside the relationship find they are not the right one or not “marriage material”. Some of those guy have all those same beginning winner qualities but I am not attracted. Not because of the good beginning qualities I mentioned...i am not attracted because of something else that has to do with “attraction alone” that I can’t put my finger on and it irks the hell out of me
Author Curiousroxy86 Posted June 30, 2019 Author Posted June 30, 2019 Sometimes I have wondered ... what it would be like if one or two times in life you could press a button, make a wish, and become attracted to someone you really admire. I think it would make finding a significant other helluva lot easier I think the reason most are single for some time is because they haven’t found anyone they are attracted enough to. That’s like first step. They pass whole bunch of people by all because they are not attracted enough. They get caught up with the one they are attracted to and find they are not the right person lol. Rinse repeat. So yes that magic button would be oh so helpful indeed lol
smackie9 Posted June 30, 2019 Posted June 30, 2019 I don't know why you are being so hung up on this. That is what dating is for, to find the right one and for the majority of us, you have to go through the process of having BFs/GFs to do so whether they are good or bad for us. It also teaches us things about ourselves, what we need, what we want, and how to handle ourselves in a relationship. This prepares us for marriage or having a life long partner. Of course you are going to meet guys that are great guys you are not attracted to...no different than meeting losers that you are not attracted to. Physical attraction is that first step, and pretty much always has been for most of us. After that is compatibility, qualities, mental stability, values, and financial status. And why wouldn't you want that before you commit your life to someone? If you didn't you would be wasting precious time right? Just be honest with yourself...you won't date them if you are not attracted to them....and there is nothing to feel guilty about. 2
preraph Posted June 30, 2019 Posted June 30, 2019 I can only speak from personal experience and we're all different. I can start thinking someone is more attractive than just their physical attributes, but if this is going to happen, it's going to happen fairly soon, like two or three exposures. For me, that part is about personality. Some people have an exceptional personality and confidence and are entertaining and have swagger even when their physical appearance isn't anything special. You maybe end up just having that fun back and forth that keeps things stimulating. And you start seeing them as a whole and start being physically attracted. But for me, this either happens quickly, pretty much as soon as I see them in action and see their personality up close, or not at all. 1
schlumpy Posted June 30, 2019 Posted June 30, 2019 Can you explain what you mean by the first part in how it relates to my concern in this post. I think I understand what you are saying but I am not exactly for sure I do. Sorry I wasn't clear. I was speaking about how we adopt standards for ourselves. You talk about yourself as an accepting person with no preconceptions about your dating partners so that everyone has an equal shot. You've set up an ideal of yourself and then you discover you can't hold to it. Happens to everyone. Best Wishes
Shining One Posted June 30, 2019 Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) Very true. I don't think men, generally speaking, feel any guilt about not being attracted to a woman.I can't speak for other men, but I have felt guilty for not being attracted to women under certain conditions. I don't feel guilty if I see a random woman and consider her unattractive. If a woman asks me out and I find her unattractive, I do feel some guilt. I felt quite a bit of guilt in situations where I found the woman attractive initially, but then found her unattractive when her clothes came off. Do women feel guilty for finding random men who haven't asked them out unattractive? Edited June 30, 2019 by Shining One 1
rightondude Posted June 30, 2019 Posted June 30, 2019 narc ex? Hey maybe if you even feel mild attraction go for it; maybe it will turn out like narc ex without the narc'ing? And yes I have felt guilty for not feeling attraction for women who were terrific, and have shamefully ghosted some for only that reason. I do know in the long run I would hurt them worse as I'd probably be wanting more, thinking about someone else, looking at (too much) porn and maybe even consider cheating if I was with a woman I wasn't attracted to 100%. I guess that's how I can still look at myself in the mirror (albeit with a good bit of shame at times) because I saved them from that fate and they can instead pursue something with someone who does find them irresistible. 1
chillii Posted June 30, 2019 Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) That's a longy , but eh from a skimming view , don't bother wasting any more time. l wouldn't wanna be some maybe thing to someone, give it time trying to feel it bs. Although some women do grow in that sense sometimes, there's a difference at a time like that though. Personally though , l'd know if she wasn't quite there anyway even if she tried to fake it'd still be pretty obvious me l'd rather she just said whatever and stopped the bs , if she didn't l'd say it myself and leave her to it. lf l wasn't number one and throwing her into a spin l'd have zero interest in bothering. Edited July 1, 2019 by chillii
Author Curiousroxy86 Posted July 1, 2019 Author Posted July 1, 2019 Do women feel guilty for finding random men who haven't asked them out unattractive? Nope lol. He is irrelevant if he haven’t asked me out. Not saying he isn’t a valuable human being. Just not relevant or valuable to my love life so no guilt whatsoever.
Author Curiousroxy86 Posted July 1, 2019 Author Posted July 1, 2019 narc ex? I guess that's how I can still look at myself in the mirror (albeit with a good bit of shame at times) because I saved them from that fate and they can instead pursue something with someone who does find them irresistible. Narc ex = narcissist ex Yea I rather a guy ghost me if he not feeling me if before exclusivity. After exclusivity I better get a breakup text atleast
TheFinalWord Posted July 1, 2019 Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) My guess is you are feeling anxiety that accompanies supply and demand. You're asking yourself, how many chances will I get to find a viable partner? Especially if you want a family. The risk for health issues for the child and the mother for a woman 35+ continue to increase. So we feel a time pressure to find a partner, build a solid relationship, and begin a family. It's even harder for women because they are expected to build a career during their most fertile years. But that's another rant. In reality, a lot of people aren't relationship material, and even fewer have the same life vision. So, you're feeling the pressure and maybe wondering if you can find a way to get yourself to settle in the looks dept. When we find someone that meets are relationship criteria, which are few, but the physical attraction isn't there, it's kind of depressing. It's the same kind of feeling as meeting someone you're physically attracted to, but you don't have shared values or life visions. But at the end of the day, the physical part has to be there. This is assuming, however, that people are being honest with what they are working with. If a person is a 5 in looks, and is only attracted to an 8, that's a little unrealistic. At that point, I would say the person needs to take a dose of reality. But you don't strike me as that type of person. Edited July 1, 2019 by TheFinalWord
MaleIntuition Posted July 1, 2019 Posted July 1, 2019 Perhaps it is because your strict rules are good at sorting out guys whom you have a bigger potential to feel attraction towards. Essentially you want men to upfront prove that they are truly interest in you. As in; calling everyday, being consistent etc: “showing by action that they are bf material”. We keep telling guys to not behave like that. That it’s unattractive. One reason is because it removes the uncertainty - the spark. When you know that he is interested you all of a sudden feel pressure to make a decision. No curiosity “does he like me?”, and you don’t have to speculate about whether he likes you or not. Thus your focus is on you and not on him. So my advice is to scratch your rule book which is based on arbitrary behaviours and start to look for the qualities and personality traits you find attractive instead. 1
Author Curiousroxy86 Posted July 1, 2019 Author Posted July 1, 2019 In reality, a lot of people aren't relationship material, and even fewer have the same life vision. So, you're feeling the pressure and maybe wondering if you can find a way to get yourself to settle in the looks dept. When we find someone that meets are relationship criteria, which are few, but the physical attraction isn't there, it's kind of depressing. It's the same kind of feeling as meeting someone you're physically attracted to, but you don't have shared values or life visions. But at the end of the day, the physical part has to be there. Well see for me I can understand lack of physical attraction be a deal breaker. Like I mentioned before I have to want to kiss the guy if we are going to be in a romantic relationship. What actually bothers me is me not being attracted and I don’t find them ugly in the looks department and that’s when I feel all the anxiety that you are referring to. I’m like “wtf why am I not feeling this guy”? Is what it is I guess
Author Curiousroxy86 Posted July 1, 2019 Author Posted July 1, 2019 Perhaps it is because your strict rules are good at sorting out guys whom you have a bigger potential to feel attraction towards. Essentially you want men to upfront prove that they are truly interest in you. As in; calling everyday, being consistent etc: “showing by action that they are bf material”. So my advice is to scratch your rule book which is based on arbitrary behaviours and start to look for the qualities and personality traits you find attractive instead. The things I look for in my “rule book” IS me looking for qualities and personality traits I find attractive Consistent, chilvarous, respectful, interested, not selfish.... I don’t see how that relates to why I am bothered by not being attracted to some guys that displays these traits vs the ones I am attracted to that display these same traits Unless your trying to say the ones I am not attracted to don’t “pursue” like I require? If so that’s not the reason I am not attracted to the guys because they do pursue lol. The ones that don’t pursue I do unapologetically pass them by and they are not who I am referring to in this particular post Unless you trying to say that deep down I am not really attracted to men who do the things in my “rule book”. If so not true at all. The guys I was physically attracted to who did these things I liked/wanted them more. The guys I was physically attracted to who don’t do these things I am turned off and tend to think just a “pretty” face lol and assume he is a jerk, player, emotional unavailable, or just not for me. I don’t find me having to do any guessing on whether a guy even likes me attractive at all. If your making a point that my standards are problematic in general outside of what I’m talking about here then if you want tell me what standards exactly do you think is problematic and why and exactly what would be my alternative and the supposed benefits of the alternative? For example you criticize that I normally choose men who take the time to call everyday. Why wouldn’t I? What are the benefits of choosing a guy that does not call? I guess your argument is that a guy that calls doesn’t mean he would be a great boyfriend. Which is true but a guy who doesn’t call sure as hell doesn’t prove be a good boyfriend either. Either way it goes I am going to further get to know the guy who takes the time to call because he shows consistency, interest...you know, those traits I find attractive lol. I could be totally missing what your trying to say though so correct me please if that’s the case
TheFinalWord Posted July 1, 2019 Posted July 1, 2019 (edited) Well, I guess I would say that not finding them ugly isn't the same as finding them attractive. I used to think like you that I didn't have a type. But... I wrote down the physical features of all the exes I've had in the past and found there were common features among them. Basically, I do have a type and I'm not as flexible as I thought. Have you ever done that? Create a list of the features of your exes and determined what common features were there? You might find there are things there... Do they all have beards? Were they all white? Were they all tall? skinny? muscular? Blonde hair? etc... If there is some commonality there, then you can determine how much room you have within those features. For example, I tend to date brunettes with long hair. But, I wouldn't be opposed to dating a girl with blonde hair. But her has to be long (past her shoulders and preferably at least half way down her back). That's the boundary for me. Within that, I can find all hair colors attractive. Edited July 1, 2019 by TheFinalWord
PRW Posted July 1, 2019 Posted July 1, 2019 Interesting read. I like hearing what a woman is thinking about along these lines. I guess this is what people mean that attraction is not a choice?That is most certainly true with initial attraction when you don't know them (like looking at a picture). But the attraction can be either boosted or ruined later. So anyhoo. 5 hours later (lol)...any advice/feed back is much appreciated I have spent a lot of time trying to study exactly what you are talking about. My conclusion, which is supported by a lot of sources, is that a large part of the woman's attraction comes from the guy's behavor (which includes confidence, fearlessness, and similar things) and it occurs at a subconscious primal level rather than on the surface. The good looks gets the guy's foot in the door but it is his behavor that keeps him there. So there would have to be something in their behavor that is triggering a primal negative response in you. I don't know what specifically it would be,...but it is there. It could even be just the tiniest micro-expressions in their face that triggers something deep inside you. It could be their voice, inflections in their speaking. Next time you go out with a group of friends with guys there, start examining them closely and them examine yourself as well in response to what you see. This happens in any context, so it doesn't have to be a date to learn from it. You could even imagine yourself on a date with any of the guys in the group if that helps you analyze it. And specific question to men...what would you rather a girl your trying to date do when she decides she is not attracted to you? End it immediately? Or should she give it some time to give her feelings about you a chance?Since I am not a "10", I would want her to give it a little time,...but yet at the same time I don't want her to give it a lot of time because that increases the chance I would get more emotionally attached to her and would make her departure more painful. So I'm looking for a good balance,...maybe 2-3 good dates where there wasn't a lot of interference such as a lot of competition nearby, or loud/crowded venues where it's hard to communicate. So I'd say 2-3 good quiet private uninterrupted dates. 1
MaleIntuition Posted July 1, 2019 Posted July 1, 2019 The things I look for in my “rule book” IS me looking for qualities and personality traits I find attractive Consistent, chilvarous, respectful, interested, not selfish.... I don’t see how that relates to why I am bothered by not being attracted to some guys that displays these traits vs the ones I am attracted to that display these same traits Those are good things; but none of them are personality traits - they are simply actions and behaviours (or in some cases simply good manners). And it’s highly unlikely that you would find arbitrary actions - such as calling everyday - attractive. However, it’s quite likely that you Are attracted to certain real personality traits such as openness, emotional stability (low neuroticism) or extraversion. Everyone can be generous and show interest. Unless your trying to say the ones I am not attracted to don’t “pursue” like I require? I’m saying that when a man comes on and display very clearly that he is after a relationship with you after only a date or two you will(might); a) subconsciously question why he is this into you so soon and, b) be under pressure to make a decision about a potential relationship instead of focusing on whether or not their will be a next date. I’m assuming you know that the (hypothetical)man in question is willing to date you exclusively? If your making a point that my standards are problematic in general outside of what I’m talking about here then if you want tell me what standards exactly do you think is problematic and why and exactly what would be my alternative and the supposed benefits of the alternative? I don’t think your standards are too high - I think they are, in a sense, too low. I think your rules are somewhat random and evidently so are your results. My advice is to go back to the drawing board; read up on some personality theory (jungian typology is fun). Figure out what values you find most important. What kind of humour? Do you think intelligence is sexy? Etc. In short try to figure out what you really find attractive and why!
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