Doesn't Offer to Split Check

June 17, 2019

I’m not getting emotional. I said I don’t give a crap. And I literally mean that! I really, really don’t, lol!

This doesn’t effect me in any way.

If you don’t want to date a woman that doesn’t insist, or offer, on paying her way, then don’t! That’s great! That’s one of the ways dating is so much better than finding a job. You can be yourself and be an equal and look for what you really want. That’s why I say dating isn’t an equal opportunity employment situation.

I know, and I try not to- like I say I just can't help raking over the coals of the debate itself damn it

I know it's a pointless exercise because no-one will change their minds but, y'know, if we all thought like that then forums like this wouldn't exist and we'd all have to do something worthwhile with our time....and I don't even want to contemplate that!

June 17, 2019

Yeah, that was basically what it was. It was an online thing and we met for the first time in front of the restaurant. And I saw the look on his face when he saw me. He was disappointed. And before we ordered, he was like, “we don’t really know each other, and we are going to be friends first (that was in my profile) so we should go Dutch”. And I of course was like “of course!”. I think he did have a good time. I did too. We went out for drinks after dinner (at his suggestion). Anyway....

I think such situations could have been avoided if we all use very recent pictures with a couple of full-body ones.

But the guy could have waited until the bill arrived and gently asked if you’d like to use credit card or cash.

June 17, 2019

I think such situations could have been avoided if we all use very recent pictures with a couple of full-body ones.

But the guy could have waited until the bill arrived and gently asked if you’d like to use credit card or cash.

I did use very recent full-body pictures, and no filters, but thanks for your advice. And I think his way of handling it was perfectly fine.

(Edit) And date #1 said he felt like he had just won the lottery on our first date. So I don’t appreciate the snide remarks.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Veronica73

June 17, 2019

I did use very recent full-body pictures, and no filters, but thanks for your advice. And I think his way of handling it was perfectly fine.

(Edit) And date #1 said he felt like he had just won the lottery on our first date. So I don’t appreciate the snide remarks.

My apologies. Didn’t mean to offend you.

June 17, 2019

I am going to continue to do what’s best for me of course but I do find the display of bigotry and small mindness in this thread incredibly annoying....

The majority of the posters here agree that there is no right or wrong on what your views are (go Dutch / take turns / reciprocate in kind / whatever).

It's not the cost, it's not the view, it's the attitude. But hey, no-one's telling you to stop doing it; if there are men around who are happy to be taken for a ride because they are amalgamating entitlement with high value, more fool them.

Not even offering to pay on date 1 (which may well be you only date) with a complete stranger met online is completely rude; it's your prerogative to do it, but it's rude.

I guess bigotry and small mindedness = calling people out on their entitled behaviour.

June 17, 2019

And the huge swath of guys here who date women who don’t offer to pay, and the two women here who don’t offer to pay, can continue the conversation.

Pretty much my thoughts on this. I don't think there's any point in me wasting my time here anymore since those of us who are in the middle seem to be the convenient scapegoats for everything, and get bashed by those 2 sides needlessly. Better to spend that time on my appreciative partner...

June 17, 2019

@some_username

everybody in dating for the most part does what they think is best for them even the ones who offer on the first date. Again a lot of women (I won’t dare say most) if they are offering is not even because they like you....it’s opposite. Thats not out of generosity. That’s so they won’t feel bad. And even if they did offer everytime it’s because they feel better about themselves. There is a me aspect attached to almost every action people take in dating. Now though I unapologetically look out for my self interests in dating as do other people I am not a selfish person/dater/girlfriend. To me a selfish dater do also look out for their self interest but show little or no consideration or choose not to reciprocate most of the time or all the time. I believe in being considerate and giving in dating/relationships consistently. I just don’t show my consideration/giving/reciprocation in the form of offering to pay for the first date.

If a man is watching football on the couch while the girl he is dating/girlfriend/wife is cooking and choose not to offer does that alone mean he is a selfish entitled man? Is he automatically “imposing” some dated mindset that women should be in the kitchen? No. Is the act itself can be seen by the woman cooking as disrespectful/inconsiderate/entitled/selfish? for some yes but for others it doesn’t mean that at all to them. If he doesn’t help in anyway or ever then yes I would say he is selfish indeed. If he helps sometimes and other times watch the game then no he is not a selfish man. If he helps in other ways maybe he will do the dishes afterwards or maybe he will cook for her next time or maybe he is just the type to pay for dates but don’t necessarily cook then I will say no not a selfish man. Looking at it on a micro level you can argue the act selfish but on a macro level not so much if the guy in this scenario isn’t a selfish person based on examples I gave.

Allowing someone to take the lead in a particular act doesn’t make the person selfish or entitled. The act at that time could be seen that way but again if the person believes in reciprocating can you really make the same claim? It’s a different choice of consideration/reciprocation that you are not expecting or not in the way that you wanted. Doesn’t mean they don’t/won’t show consideration/reciprocation. Think of the premise behind five love languages. Many different ways to show love but some people expect it in one way where the other shows it a different way. So instead of love think date language lol. You can choose to communicate your date language or just not date anybody that speaks your date language.

For me personally I let men pay for the first date because I believe when it comes to any acts of pursuit or initiating or showing interest in dating that men should take the lead. So because I believe this and this is my standard I don’t intiate most of the time. I allow man to take the lead. I believe in responding with clear interest but I allow men to initiate. That is my mindset. He shows his interest in me by his pursuit and I respond with interest by returning his affections and reciprocating. That is just how I choose to relate to men when I date. I could really get on my soap box even further than I already have into why I have this mindset if you want but for now I’m going to leave it at that lol. So am I being presumptuous? Abso-effing-lately. But most people in dating are because we all have our own mindsets in how we operate and will come across people who either share the same mindset or don’t (as you can see in this thread). So with my mindset there is an assumption that if a guy ask for my number and wants to get to know me he is going to call, if he wants to go out with me he will ask me out, if he asks me out he will either pay or express otherwise. That is my mindset and I don’t see it as disrespectful at all. Just like many of you men who try to have sex without verbally asking if we want to. Y’all try your luck and assume we want to and often times don’t see it as disrespectful and many women don’t see it as disrespectful UNLESS we say no....and even then you still try your luck so miss me with all of that (to whoever that applies to of course). But back on topic...that is my mindset in how I relate to men and I don’t think I’m being disrespectful. Presumptuous/assuming yes. Disrespectful? Your arm should be falling off on that hard reach.

Now that being said I am fully aware that some men dont agree fully or partially with my mindset so because of that I choose not to be fussy (about most things. I have my limits lol) if the guy who asked me out wants to do a free or cheap date then for the most part I would agree and I wouldn’t hold it against the guy. I can understand that he might be the type to do date zeros to see if this is even something he wants to further invest or that’s his way of protecting himself against gold digging women. We all take measures to protect our hearts which is again why I try not to fuss over personal idiosyncrasies and dating rules. We don’t know what’s behind the meaning of someone’s dating rules (as evident in this thread and many others) so I try to be reasonably open. Also because I am aware of this I choose to always be prepared to go dutch or if on the second date he ask me if I got it this time. The way I choose to do things may be different the way he does things. Guess what? That’s okay with me. But that is where my consideration for the guy comes in. I am willing to adjust/compromise at the time someone communicates their personal standard/dating rule in dating. Its good to be flexible. This does not mean however I will change my standard/personal dating rule/how I do things going forward and that is what I find laughable about this thread is that people on here think people should change their own standard or how they do things in dating simply because they think their way is right. If it works for them why feel the need to “impose” your mindset on to them besides the fact that’s the way you see things. So being agreeable and willing to compromise is one of many ways on how I show consideration for another mans mindset on the first and seconds date and of course I believe in reciprocating paying on third/4th date. I believe in cooking for a guy as we go on. I believe in doing thoughtful things for a guy reciprocally as we go on. That is how I choose to be considerate . And you or others may think that’s not enough or that it should happen on the first date. I think it’s more than enough. And yes if he has that different mindset and he choose not to communicate it and just not ask me out again that’s his choice and I am okay with that hence why I choose to continue to do what I do. Just like he needs to be okay with his results as well. That’s the beautiful and ugly thing about compatibility and navigating other people’s differences. So this does mean if he wants me to pay my own way on the first date he has to make it known to me beforehand or on the date. I will pay my part without fuss and I personally wouldn’t hold it against the guy who did because I try to be open and I don’t think it makes him a bad guy. I could assume he is stingy, cheap, doesn’t like me much, not intelligent when it comes to women and dating....but I am smart enough to know that there could be valid reasons behind it and it’s a personal dating rule that’s different from my own and not necessarily troublesome enough to choose not to get to know him more.

And that’s really my point in these arguments. i personally dont think it’s wise to chuck a certain decision a woman makes and call them selfish. You have to understand many men are happy to pay and are not upset if a woman doesn’t offer on the first date and some take it as disrespect if she did so knowing that there are other perspectives out there I do think it’s a bit small minded to just call it blatant selfishness. If you want to say the act itself is selfish and you find it disrespectful ok but I would think it’s a bit lazy and not very introspective to assume the woman is selfish and entitled. I can see you thinking women in society generally being entitled because of how we tend to view things in a whole and how society treats women in comparison to men. I get that. Even I can see injustices against men as a whole in society so I won’t discount that. But you will be hard pressed to try to make women individually change how they see things in relation to dating just like women try to foolishly do with men. I say it all the time but times do not change how men and women see each other on a subconscious level generally speaking even in “modern age/time of equality/2019”. From a general perspective there are differences in how we attract and how we are attracted no matter how you believe things “should” be. And the subject of offering to pay is a big part of that.

June 17, 2019

Little you saying “it’s rude”and another saying it’s not means difference of opinion which is fine

You keep saying “its rude” to the person you have already made it clear to....or keep “calling them out” when you already made it clear that there is a difference of opinion displays bigotry especially when there isn’t any addressing of their reasons or discussion. You just call their reasons wrong or “rude” which is back to your same point that was already established.

What other purpose do you have to keep saying the same thing to one who doesn’t agree?

Edited June 17, 2019 by Curiousroxy86

June 18, 2019

You keep saying Â“its rudeÂ” to the person you have already made it clear to....or keep Â“calling them outÂ” when you already made it clear that there is a difference of opinion displays bigotry especially when there isnÂ’t any addressing of their reasons or discussion.

I don't even know why I am addressing this - I guess I have a compulsion to reply since your post is directed at me.

I get it. You're a great partner once the relationship is established (aren't we all ). You're looking for a 'leader' type of man. There is nothing wrong with that at all - I presume a lot of women want that too.

A man who 'leads' in a healthy way will want to see that he's not taken for ride first though - wearing high heels and listening to his stories and playing coy may not cut it for him: offering to pay on date 1 (and meaning it) clears that up. If he's really interested or the type of guy you're after, he'll show it.

The thing is that you really have no idea what type of guy is sitting across the table from you; without having established what your 'preferences' are ahead of time, he may be looking for an equal partner, or at least someone with good manners; remember, he, a total stranger, doesn't know how awesome of a partner you are post date 1 because he can't read minds any better than you do, and / or he may not like you enough to go past that stage.

It'll like you're not even contemplating the fact that he may not want to see you again and / or he is not a controlling / domineering type.

A good natured guy with healthy boundaries will treat you that once and not contact you again on that basis alone.

If you can't see what the problem is, I don't know what to tell you. This is not a difference of opinion problem. It's an attitude adjustment problem.

June 18, 2019

you totally misunderstood my point and said things that I didnt even say or allude to but its okay we shall agree to disagree little

June 18, 2019

I don't think I have, Curiousroxy86...

Look at it that way:

You will have learned nothing of a guy's views if he decides to treat you without question at the end of the first meet, in terms of compatibility. You may even think it's 'going well' when he's just being polite.

He, on the other hand, will have learned enough about you, whether he invites you or not, not to want to see you again on the simple fact that you are not offering.

It's not about the money - it's what it says about you as a person.

I can honestly say hand on heart that I don't know of anyone who would find that endearing or justifiable in this day and age (those who do are looking for an easy lay or a sugar baby type of situation, or have super poor boundaries, to put it bluntly). A random dater will have even less patience for it, I assume.

You are effectively taking yourself out as a viable dating proposition, even if everything else lines up, even if you know yourself to be an awesome partner, and are missing out on great guys as a result.

And I'd be saying the same thing to my daughter as I'm saying this to you now, this is in no way personal.

But hey, it's your life.

June 18, 2019

we shall agree to disagree my friend take care

June 18, 2019

SCENARIO 1: Man invites me out for dinner. He chooses the restaurant. The date goes well and dinner is wrapping up. Server appears with the check. Man takes check directly from server and hands it back along with his bank card.

Is it really "rude" and "entitled" if I don't offer to pay when the man has taken the initiative to remove the opportunity for me to do so? Personally, I feel like an offer of money at that point would be a lot more rude than offering my heartfelt thanks for taking me out to dinner. Seems to me like the idea that it's ALWAYS rude and entitled to not offer to pay doesn't leave any room for actually reading the situation - which could also play out like this:

SCENARIO 2: Man invites me out for dinner. He chooses the restaurant. The date goes well and dinner is wrapping up. Server appears with the check. Man nods to server, allowing the check to be placed on the table between us, and the server walks away. We both pull out our cards at the same time. He makes no objection. We both place our cards in the little folder thingy with the check, and confirm with the server that we'll be splitting the bill for dinner.

No, I do not OFFER to pay. That doesn't mean I'm rude or entitled or WON'T pay. It just means that I have no interest in getting into a verbal negotiation over money on a DATE if it can be avoided. I find the entire idea distasteful. I would rather pay for myself wordlessly than make a verbal "offer" - which would likely be interpreted as fishing for him to pay for me anyway. Put your money where your mouth is, right?

June 18, 2019

Clearly not the OP was about so I guess you can breathe easy?

June 18, 2019

@LBH

Ok but you are assuming that most guys want a woman who offers to pay on the first date.

I don't believe ALL men want that.

Some men want nothing to do with "feminist" women trying to emasculate him by offering to pay, as if he is not capable of paying... an insult basically.

June 18, 2019

Is it really "rude" and "entitled" if I don't offer to pay when the man has taken the initiative to remove the opportunity for me to do so?

In my opinion, yes. I have a basic principle I follow: If you contribute to the problem (in this case, the bill) then you offer to contribute to the solution. If I were dating a traditional woman and I contributed to making a mess, I would think it rude of me to not offer to help with the cleanup, despite cleaning up traditionally being her responsibility.

June 18, 2019

Clearly not the OP was about so I guess you can breathe easy?

Well, I dunno. Depending on the specifics of the situation there's still room for me to end up doing pretty much exactly what the OP is complaining about, because things aren't always so cut-and-dried obvious as in the examples I gave. Especially if there's alcohol involved. I have no idea how long the OP is waiting to see if these girls offer to chip in, and I also have no idea how situationally aware the girls might be by the time they've had a few drinks.

It seems to me like everyone in the dating world just wants to figure out how to make every single other person behave in their ideal way ON PRINCIPLE (never gonna happen), instead of just proactively filtering out the ones who don't (much more realistic).

If a man is bothered by women not offering to split the check, that man should make it clear up-front that he expects this. If he neglects to make his expectations clear because he believes doing so will result in fewer dates... well, he can't be too surprised if some of his dates are reading from a different script.

Same goes for anyone of any gender who conceals their expectations - hence why I'd never complain about men not paying my way. I might not go out with them again, but I'd accept the cost incurred graciously, and it would never occur to me to take issue with it as a matter of universal principle. It's a matter of incompatibility - that's all.

There is no universal, global, national, regional, or even local standard for how these things are "supposed" to be done.

In my opinion, yes. I have a basic principle I follow: If you contribute to the problem (in this case, the bill) then you offer to contribute to the solution. If I were dating a traditional woman and I contributed to making a mess, I would think it rude of me to not offer to help with the cleanup, despite cleaning up traditionally being her responsibility.

So, clearly, if you and I ever had a first date, it would be a GOOD THING if either you didn't want to see me again because I didn't offer to pay - or if I didn't want to see you again because you asked/allowed me to pay. You prefer the egalitarian model; I want nothing to do with it. We would never be able to work well together. Even if we somehow made it through the first date OK, it would be over when you started trying to do my "women's work" for me. I don't need a man who takes my job!

June 18, 2019

In my opinion, yes. I have a basic principle I follow: If you contribute to the problem (in this case, the bill) then you offer to contribute to the solution. If I were dating a traditional woman and I contributed to making a mess, I would think it rude of me to not offer to help with the cleanup, despite cleaning up traditionally being her responsibility.

im concerned that you see the bill as the problem

June 18, 2019

So, clearly, if you and I ever had a first date, it would be a GOOD THING if either you didn't want to see me again because I didn't offer to pay - or if I didn't want to see you again because you asked/allowed me to pay. You prefer the egalitarian model; I want nothing to do with it. We would never be able to work well together. Even if we somehow made it through the first date OK, it would be over when you started trying to do my "women's work" for me. I don't need a man who takes my job!

I agree that it's best for incompatibilities to be discovered early. As for the actual delineation of responsibilities, that's not in debate. It's the offering to contribute that's in debate. As I mentioned earlier, I offer to contribute as a matter of politeness, even in situations in which I know my offer will be turned down. This goes beyond dating.

June 18, 2019

im concerned that you see the bill as the problem

It's a problem in the same sense as the mess I referred to. It's not a huge deal by any means (usually), but it's still something that needs to be handled.

June 18, 2019

Is it really "rude" and "entitled" if I don't offer to pay when the man has taken the initiative to remove the opportunity for me to do so?

Not necessarily, my opinion on rudeness and entitlement is that it is more about the mindset and intent. Did you leave the house aiming not to spend any money that evening? Would you have been happy to pay if asked (genuinely happy) and not think less of the guy if he had? If the answer those questions are no and yes then you can know in your heart that you are playing with a square bat so can let him pick up the bill if he goes for it.

Personally, I feel like an offer of money at that point would be a lot more rude than offering my heartfelt thanks for taking me out to dinner.

...although this is a weak argument, to me. Sounds like a politician trying to justify voting to give themself a pay rise

Basically at this point he has picked up the tab so it’s not your place to say what is rude and what isn’t. It is what it is. BUT doing nothing is still better than the absolute worst which is offering to pay and fumbling about for your purse. It’s pathetic and brutal because we all know you don’t want to. I had a girl do this recently after I had paid for two previous meals. She offered to pay and fannied about so much that I had pulled my card out and paid in seconds. I was proper pissed off though. She then ghosted me and I was even more pissed off but relieved that she had taken her act elsewhere. So much for splitting the bill if you know you won't see them again.

No, I do not OFFER to pay. That doesn't mean I'm rude or entitled or WON'T pay. It just means that I have no interest in getting into a verbal negotiation over money on a DATE if it can be avoided. I find the entire idea distasteful. I would rather pay for myself wordlessly than make a verbal "offer" - which would likely be interpreted as fishing for him to pay for me anyway. Put your money where your mouth is, right?

I don't see what the issue is here and why you stress the word ‘offer’. For a first date this is how it should be- from an egalitarian standpoint. Just put your card down when he does and tell the waiter you are happy to split the bill.

June 18, 2019

@LBH
I don't believe ALL men want that

I agree.

My whole point, though, is that there is no way of knowing this from a complete stranger.

Both are going in there blind, expecting anything from someone you probably won't see again is, to me, self-sabotaging at the very best.

Expecting the guy to pay makes it sound like paying for the first meal = paying for the privilege to get a second date, as though a guy can't possibly not be interested. That's not confidence or displaying 'high value', that's entitlement. It's not betraying the 'sisterhood' than to say I completely understand how a guy could be put off by that. That is, imo, taking advantage of a man's good nature / generosity.

Same as a guy thinking paying for a meal = de facto right to 2nd date or bedding the woman that night.

There is nothing to lose by going in intending on splitting the bill with someone you don't know (which to me means getting ready for any scenario).

The guy who feels emasculated by 'feminism' or who wants to show interest or the 'gentleman' or the one who has a 'not going Dutch' policy will do as per KT's scenario 1 anyway. No need to offer, no complaining, the end.

It's not about the feminist stance or the traditional stance; it's about the basic courtesy afforded to someone you meet for the first time. That's it.

June 18, 2019

I agree.

My whole point, though, is that there is no way of knowing this from a complete stranger.

Both are going in there blind, expecting anything from someone you probably won't see again is, to me, self-sabotaging at the very best.

Expecting the guy to pay makes it sound like paying for the first meal = paying for the privilege to get a second date, as though a guy can't possibly not be interested. That's not confidence or displaying 'high value', that's entitlement. It's not betraying the 'sisterhood' than to say I completely understand how a guy could be put off by that. That is, imo, taking advantage of a man's good nature / generosity.

Same as a guy thinking paying for a meal = de facto right to 2nd date or bedding the woman that night.

There is nothing to lose by going in intending on splitting the bill with someone you don't know (which to me means getting ready for any scenario).

The guy who feels emasculated by 'feminism' or who wants to show interest or the 'gentleman' or the one who has a 'not going Dutch' policy will do as per KT's scenario 1 anyway. No need to offer, no complaining, the end.

It's not about the feminist stance or the traditional stance; it's about the basic courtesy afforded to someone you meet for the first time. That's it.

Interesting point, a man who was expecting sex after paying for a meal would, at the *very* least be considered "entitled" (as well as a chauvinisitic ******* etc etc)....yet a woman who expects a man to pay for that meal is.......

...'traditional'?

June 18, 2019

Interesting point, a man who was expecting sex after paying for a meal would, at the *very* least be considered "entitled"

Dude, you're picking on the wrong person here. I think LBH is pretty much saying exactly that...

If you stop assuming that people are disagreeing with you just because of their gender, and actually read their post, you may find that the "gender lines" here are not anywhere near what you think they are.

June 18, 2019

some_username1: Of course I'm happy to pay my own share as soon as I've ascertained that the man in question is not a suitable match for me (this is all but a given if he allows me to pay my own way) - and no, I wouldn't think less of him. But it's not an "offer" to pay on the premise of accepting or establishing gender equality as the foundation for a potential relationship. It's an executive DECISION to pay, with the intention of not seeing him again - because his approach to male/female relations and gender roles is not compatible with mine.

Maybe he's a really wonderful guy who will make some feminist over-the-moon-happy, but he's not for me and I'm not for him. Simple as that.

Yes, this wait-and-see snap-judgment approach would disqualify the vast majority of men if applied wholesale to modern dating. It would also be very expensive for me, which is a big part of why I've mostly kept out of the broader dating pool and stuck to entertaining the romantic advances of men who I already know and who have already demonstrated an inclination toward my preferred courtship dynamic.

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