Maybe the end

[Normm]

Case in point I took the yoga instructor home at 3.30am after a party, didn't make a move at all because I wasn't sure and didn't want to be rejected.

 

She probably felt rejected that you didn't make a move on her. Or she was thinking this guy is so scared he won't even go for it.

 

You need a woman who will take the reins and guide you through the whole process from start to finish.

 

Or, take your "fear of rejection" and throw it out the freaking window. So what if you get rejected. If you do nothing you know you're going to lose anyway.

[Highndry]

That was the sole reason I invited her back. My problem is there is no signal that suggests ok kiss me.

 

 

I think I am going to go back to a few of these arrangement business type dates again, maybe that's the short term solution.

 

 

I haven't read the entire thread, but the "ok kiss me" signal was when she came over to your place. Where you failed is that you didn't create a moment. My guess is you spent too much time talking and doing pointless crap and she realized you don't have game and that's why she "got uncomfortable."

 

The next time you get in this situation, you need to man up and put yourself in her space. Sit close to her on the couch, tell her how great she looks or something, touch her knee, then lean in for a kiss. You have to do something like that. What are you scared of - that she'd say "whoa, what are you doing?" Buddy, she came over to your apartment late. You could have had her in your bed within minutes, I'd guess.

 

PS - How old are you? I remember when I was like 18 I was missing signals from women left and right. I remember a few times laying next to them, scared to make a move because I wasn't sure. Later on I realized how stupid I was being, that they had placed themselves next to me in bed for a reason, and it wasn't to be their stuffed animal to cuddle with.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Highndry

[ZA Dater]

I haven't read the entire thread, but the "ok kiss me" signal was when she came over to your place. Where you failed is that you didn't create a moment. My guess is you spent too much time talking and doing pointless crap and she realized you don't have game and that's why she "got uncomfortable."

PS - How old are you?

 

Nearly 35 and never had a second date ever. She came back with me but told me implicitly she only wanted a drink and nothing more. So I had actions which suggested one thing and words which suggested another so yes what was I suppose to do?

 

Ironically I have been in this situation three times before, well ones similar and the outcome was the same, even when I did sort of make a move as you suggested, she still flatly turned me down which suggests something about the way I come across is very unappealing.

 

My options are

 

1: Keep trying knowing there is something very off putting about me in that situation and feel conscious of that

2: Simply just friend zone from the outset, enjoy a dinner or whatever with the knowledge she wont see me again, rather than try go here and she walks away with a very negative impression of me and I feel terrible after.

 

A lot of the reason I hate dating is this, I cant read them and they don't actually offer up much to read, other guys have ladies falling all over them I never have had this. Its a heck of a lot easier if you can see that someone actually wants you. From my point of view the entire relationship concept has become one I feel that is simply impossible for me to accomplish in any form, my view on what it should be and the generally accepted view aren't the same, my view of what a guy should be and the view of the general society, again are not the same.

 

Decided I am just going to stick to trying to find a friend, ultimately that's going to be extremely hard but not impossible. If nobody sees the value in me then so be it.

[ZA Dater]

She probably felt rejected that you didn't make a move on her. Or she was thinking this guy is so scared he won't even go for it.

 

You need a woman who will take the reins and guide you through the whole process from start to finish.

 

Or, take your "fear of rejection" and throw it out the freaking window. So what if you get rejected. If you do nothing you know you're going to lose anyway.

 

 

I'll just go friend zone going forward. I'd rather do nothing than be rejected yet again.

[elaine567]

Nearly 35 and never had a second date ever. She came back with me but told me implicitly she only wanted a drink and nothing more. So I had actions which suggested one thing and words which suggested another so yes what was I suppose to do?

 

Well that wasn't a "sure thing" then was it?

She explicitly said "...a drink and nothing more", you need to listen to that and forget "No really means Yes", else you will land in big trouble...

Some women do only want a drink or coffee or to "see your etchings"...

 

I thought your had a girl in your home that had made it plain she was only there for sex, but the opposite was the case.

Yes had you been some practised Lothario then you may have "persuaded" and pressurised her to have sex with you, but would that have been right?

[ZA Dater]

Well that wasn't a "sure thing" then was it?

She explicitly said "...a drink and nothing more", you need to listen to that and forget "No really means Yes", else you will land in big trouble...

Some women do only want a drink or coffee or to "see your etchings"...

 

I thought your had a girl in your home that had made it plain she was only there for sex, but the opposite was the case.

Yes had you been some practised Lothario then you may have "persuaded" and pressurised her to have sex with you, but would that have been right?

 

 

 

The level of BS is see from guys trying to charm girls for this very purpose is nauseating so no that's not something I would do.

 

 

Quite what she hoped to discuss with me at 12:30 am I have no idea, it was small talk about nothing really. The I was told I am not her type.

[Normm]

She came back with me but told me implicitly she only wanted a drink and nothing more. So I had actions which suggested one thing and words which suggested another so yes what was I suppose to do?

 

You go for it anyway but be prepared for a rejection which never killed anyone as far as I know.

Sorry but there's no way she "only wanted a drink". She was keeping an open mind but maybe need a bit of pursuasion and positive action on your part to take it to the next step.

 

You gotta read the signals and move it forward. You don't have to necessarily grab her boobs without prior notice but you could look at her, smile, and say "I'd really like to kiss you". Worst that happens is she says "I'm not ready" or "I told you I'm not here for that".

[chillii]

Yeah , bit young to close the door and give up yet and if you think like that you'll probably get it.

Besides , right now is prime l found 30s the best period ever for women.

[Normm]

I'd rather do nothing than be rejected yet again.

 

That's so risk-aversive of you. Where would we get in life if we didn't take chances?

 

(Not very far)

[Flame Aura]

As a Croat I know exactly what you mean about her being hot as every time I go back home to my country I get more and more amazed at how hot my fellow countrywomen are.

 

Anyway, I'm a few years younger than you, but if there was one thing I wish I knew in my early twenties when I was inexperienced it is to ALWAYS MAKE THE FIRST MOVE.

 

I cannot stress how important this is. Before I knew this I lost out on a lot of opportunities to get down to business with some hotties because I was quite simply a scaredy cat, scared of getting rejected. Problem was by not making the first move they rejected me anyway.

 

You really need to set the scene first and make her want you. For example when she said she's coming for drinks nothing else, what was your response?

 

Mine would have been 'That sounds like a challenge... Challenge accepted *cheeky smile*' or 'Well it's going to be hard for me to resist you as you are stunning... But I will try. No promises though *cheeky smile*.

 

Then when you are with her having drinks, talking, whatever, move closer and go for a kiss when the time is right. What have you got to lose? Nothing. If it fails you will never see her again.

 

Always always always try to make a move, even if they tell you they are not coming for that. Only way to find out the truth is by trying, then you will have your answer.

 

And stop with all this 'I quit I'm going to be alone forever' rubbish as it's very unattractive. Build some confidence in yourself.

[ZA Dater]

That's so risk-aversive of you. Where would we get in life if we didn't take chances?

 

(Not very far)

 

Time has proven chances in dating get me a kick in the face and nothing more so for me its probably at better option to just try find the friend zone with someone I get along with fairly well where there is no expectation of anything else.

 

At least them I don't need to nurse the inevitable bruises. What is difficult is to find the good in these dates, sure some have been nice but for me everything is outcome based so a good dinner is actually only a good dinner if there is a second coffee date.

 

Then I have the other inevitable problem of mixed advice the advice given here and the advice of a friend of mine who dates well and has the level of charm I don't have.

 

Honestly though I just think people don't want me in that way, which I guess is fine, its easier to want me in the 'well he is a phone call away when I need help with something'. Again I don't really let me guard down so generally I am quite guarded most of the time so when I look at all these things, its not so surprising she didn't want me, she even said 'I can see you lack confidence" so that's a deal killer right there.

[ZA Dater]

And stop with all this 'I quit I'm going to be alone forever' rubbish as it's very unattractive. Build some confidence in yourself.

 

 

 

You tell me how? I am happier to not try and get nowhere versus try and look like an awkward idiot. Neither is ideal but the former is preferable.

 

 

I think a lot of it is how one is perceived, its easy for me to find confidence in situations where typically I have enjoyed some success, I have not enjoyed any success at dating at all so its near impossible to find any confidence there.

 

 

Analytically if I look at those who are successful, I look at that template and then compare myself to that I am so way off to the point where there are no common traits at all. People need to find me attractive and for whatever reason they don't, I wont lie this used to bother me but it actually doesn't anymore, when that blond runs past me, sure I'll look but at that same time "that isn't gettable" is my first thought. I take some criticism for this from a friend, he maintains its rubbish, I maintain that past experiences and the fact I am so far off suggest its the truth, again its confidence which I don't have.

 

 

I do take some solace in the fact its all my fault I suppose, I created this personality, I made those choices and I chose to be different. Ultimately there is nobody to blame but me. I am never going to fit in with what people want, for all purposes I don't have a social life as such, most of it revolves around work.

 

 

So I ask myself who would want to be with me and the answer is simple: nobody. They are happy to use my generosity, happy to placate me because I am so starved of attention but ultimately they will have lunch with, have dinner with me but they are always going to choose someone else.

[Normm]

I am happier to not try and get nowhere versus try and look like an awkward idiot. Neither is ideal but the former is preferable.

 

 

This is your problem right here. You're worried about what other people think, you're petrified of rejection, and you are paralyzed by fear. So you never put yourself out there, you don't take any chances, and you never make any progress.

[chillii]

Yeah agree , like l was sayin somewhere way back when anxiety.

So you got two choices then z, but you say your basically giving up and l get the discouragement. But that's a shame because giving up might seal your fate at this stage.

Or maybe the right girl comes along and it all falls together for once, who knows.

At your age though mate, either way lotta life left yet to just give up now.

Besides , l'm not even convinced this girl for example wasn't interested no matter what she said at the start. It was a tricky situation so late , back to your place, sometimes a girls says things like that at the start just to kinda be careful of the sitch.

l'd still actually call a pretty girl coming back to your place that time of night a win anyway myself because she wanted to, with you, that's still a big thing really.

Edited February 21, 2019 by chillii

[Grey40]

You tell me how? I am happier to not try and get nowhere versus try and look like an awkward idiot. Neither is ideal but the former is preferable.

 

 

Give me a rough ballpark number of how many dates you’ve been on in your life. Also, what is the main thing that happens over again on the dates? Where does it usually fall apart? After date 1?

Edited February 22, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
edited quote

[ZA Dater]

Give me a rough ballpark number of how many dates you’ve been on in your life. Also, what is the main thing that happens over again on the dates? Where does it usually fall apart? After date 1?

 

 

 

It usually falls apart for two main reasons.

 

 

1: Most of the time I am going on dates with people I don't find very attractive from the outset in the hope their personality will make them attractive, most of the time this doesn't happen.

 

 

2: Hardly ever does the conversation flow because no matter what topic most of them don't really speak, nor do many have any opinion on anything. Yes, I ask them about them but what school they went to and where they grew up doesn't really interest me UNLESS they aren't from SA, then it does interest me.

 

 

3: I don't get wowed very often, most I just revert to doing an interview because there is just nothing amazing about these people, nothing that says "ok you are a catch".

 

 

Yes, there have been some good dates where the conversation was great, I found them attractive but mostly it was instances where I pretty much knew they were not interested in me so I made the most out of a good situation. Good example is now I linked up with someone on Tinder, day 1 great conversation, day 2 no conversation, day 3, three lines and yesterday was day 4 and nothing. I don't feel compelled to chase and beg and plead. Clearly she isn't interested.

 

 

Mostly the problem I have with dating is no mutual attraction ever to the point where I don't think the concept actually exists for me.

 

 

I have probably been on 50-60 dates.

[ZA Dater]

This is your problem right here. You're worried about what other people think, you're petrified of rejection, and you are paralyzed by fear. So you never put yourself out there, you don't take any chances, and you never make any progress.

 

 

 

When I have put myself out there and have taken chances nothing good ever comes of it. Its like running into a brick wall over and over again, why bother?

 

 

Its not as if any of these dates ever so any interest in me so what really is the point, I sit there like some sales person selling an unsellable product while she puts in no effort at all to woo me. Not ONCE has one ever actually tried to sell their good qualities to me.

 

 

Point is there is no connection ever, this whole Croatian girl thing fell apart because there was no connection and I had no game. Add those two things together and it will never work.

 

 

What does work for me is the role of helpful supportive friend, that I am quite good at and at least that gets me a lesser feeling of being alone. For years I believed it would be possible to take this and turn it into something more but then I realised things don't work the way I'd like them to.

[elaine567]

Yes, I ask them about them but what school they went to and where they grew up doesn't really interest me UNLESS they aren't from SA, then it does interest me.

 

When dating there has to be some common ground found so that a relationship can develop. These questions are not just questions they are fact finding missions in the quest to find some real life links.

It may be "interesting" to find she went to school in a little village 50 miles out of London/Stockholm/Paris/... but unless there is some connection to be made around that bit of information, it is just an albeit interesting, but useless fact.

You are looking for interesting snippets, but interesting snippets tend to lead nowhere, hence why the conversation peters out...

[Normm]

When I have put myself out there and have taken chances nothing good ever comes of it. Its like running into a brick wall over and over again, why bother?

 

 

You didn't put yourself out there. Putting yourself out there would have meant risking rejection and making a move on the girl that went back to your place with you. You are letting fear rule your life and I agree with you on this much- if you keep doing things the same way you can expect the same non-results.

[ZA Dater]

You are looking for interesting snippets, but interesting snippets tend to lead nowhere, hence why the conversation peters out...

 

 

 

Exactly true. I need those points of interest otherwise I don't have much interest at all. I cant see how a school or an area that one grew up in provides much connection at all.

 

 

Mostly I guess the answer to this is to just be happy on my own. Clearly I don't get the fundamentals of dating but that's hardly surprising. The problem really is I have managed to have a few wow dates but the problem is once you had that its all you want so on balance I guess one good pointless date a year which is wow is better than a dozen average ones.

[alphamale]

Clearly I don't get the fundamentals of dating....

 

neither does anyone else ZA

[Normm]

neither does anyone else ZA

 

 

Disagree. Speaking for myself, when I was last dating.. around 8 yrs ago before I met my girlfriend/life partner with whom I now live, I did just fine. No shortage of women to message on the dating sites, countless first dates, many of which went on for weeks before I pulled the plug because they weren't for me, and a half dozen serious relationships all of which I ended because again, they fell short of my needs. I recall maybe a handful of first dates where I was interested but she wasn't. This was after a 20 year marriage so I was somewhat out of practice. It's a game, and like any other game you learn from mistakes, experience, and practicing what works and what doesn't.

 

Or you refuse to learn, and adapt, and change, and you continue to fail and throw in a boatload of venting and complaining about things you supposedly can't control because that's the way the world is and theres nothing you can do about it. ZA's posts on this forum clearly describe the latter.

Edited February 24, 2019 by Normm

[alphamale]

Disagree. Speaking for myself, when I was last dating.. around 8 yrs ago before I met my girlfriend/life partner with whom I now live, I did just fine. No shortage of women to message on the dating sites, countless first dates, many of which went on for weeks before I pulled the plug because they weren't for me, and a half dozen serious relationships all of which I ended because again, they fell short of my needs. I recall maybe a handful of first dates where I was interested but she wasn't. This was after a 20 year marriage so I was somewhat out of practice. It's a game, and like any other game you learn from mistakes, experience, and practicing what works and what doesn't.

 

Or you refuse to learn, and adapt, and change, and you continue to fail and throw in a boatload of venting and complaining about things you supposedly can't control because that's the way the world is and theres nothing you can do about it. ZA's posts on this forum clearly describe the latter.

 

yeah I get what you mean Norm, maybe I should have said neither do most peope

[Normm]

maybe I should have said neither do most single peope

 

 

^There, fixed that for ya.

[Highroller107]

After reading your first post, are you attractive? I’m assuming you are if you managed to get these dates. Maybe these women weren’t easy, or you didn’t tell them you wanted to watch a movie or something. From my experience my panties came off on the second or first dates if I find the guy sexually attracted to, it wouldn’t matter what he said, well unless he was a creep or said weird things to me then no. I give the green light