Now that we are trying to work it out...

[CHAZ87]

Some of you might have read my thread in the sep/divorce forum, so here it goes. My SO had an A about 2 1/2 months ago, I know you are going to say it is to soon, but how do you get rid of the thoughts. How do you think to the future without dwelling in the past. The dwelling is killing me. We had a very nice month to month and a half. Then we started having the "working it out problems". She didn't stop contact with OM, he was training her for a marathon and triatholon, until recently. I don't know what changed in her, but she told me today that she would be going NC with him. I know this is what I should want, but now our lives together will be miserale because she won't be training. A side note, she might be moving out to see if a seperation might be what we need. I don't know. I do love her and I wish we could work on it in the same house, but we have been having arguements lately about the A and the contact with OM. All I really want to know is, how do you think to the future and try and push the thoughts to the back of your mind? Right now I am guarding my feelings for her. Is that the right thing to be doing? I am the kind of person that doesn't take to well to betrayal very well. I used to think infidelity was unforgivable. Thought they way my whole life. How do I change that for the woman I have spent almost half my life with. I love her tremendously, she will probably read this and say that is not true. But it is. I do start, finally, counseling on Tuesday. I hope that helps fo rmy families sake.

 

Sorry for the rant, just need some new advice.

 

p.s Is this the right forum for this thread?

[jhurtinct]

having someone disrespect you and betray your trust is the worse thing ever, personally I don't know how you dealt with her still having contact with him, but that is not going to help you put it in the back of your mind.

 

She should be trying her best right now to show you she loves you and trying to build trust again first. I don't see how you will rebuild trust with her wanting to move out I just think IMO that doesn't sound right.

 

Just be careful for yourself and counseling is probably the best thing for you.

 

She needs to be working at this also though you just take care of yourself.

 

I've been cheated on by my bf about 2 1/2 yrs ago and its still hard to trust, but he takes blame and reassures me when ever I need it, but after a long time i have but it in the past as best as I can because otherwise it wouldn't work, as I said after along time.

 

Good luck.

[CHAZ87]

The contact was for the training. OM ended up going back to an ex after my SO told him. I told her that was all he was around for. She didn't want to believe me. I am a guy for godsake. If I was single and saw a beautiful woman who was having problems in her marriage, I would do the same. I didn't put up with it per se, she was telling me everyhting, I got to go on Vaca with her. And I went as her support at the triathalon. Tuesday is just so far away when I need an impartial 3rd party in this.

 

Thanks for the post. Please keep them coming.

[jhurtinct]

it sounds like you r a very understand man and she's lucky for that. I hope all works out, in your first post I just didn't get the impression that she seemed very sorry for what she did and I was just thinking for your sake, I hope you didn't take it wrong.

 

infidelity is one of the worsest thing to have to go through and I feel for you.

It's hard to get over something like that. You really need the support and reassurance and willingness to work through it from her to get over it. All I was saying was I hope she's giving that to you, maybe she can go to a few sessions with you.

 

good luck

[CHAZ87]

I thought I have been. She just emailed me that she still wants to move out. That is going to kill me. She wants to be sure that we can be the best parents and we can love each other like we should. But it hurts that one time she would go out with somebody else. These are the thoughts that are absolutely killing me.

[Bryanp]

You judge a person by their actions and not by their words. Most of the time when a wife says she wants to separate for a while to see if they will miss their spouse; it is simply not true. The reason they wish to separate is that they will have the ability to spend time with the OM unimpeded. Separation is the worst possible things. She will not be spending time alone. I sincerely hoped that you contacted the OM's ex. I hate to tell you this but I think you will find out that this is generally the case. I think you need to protect yourself emotionally and financially. If she was serious about recovery with you she would not be moving out. She wants freedom to go out with others. Keep an eye out for the OM.

[CHAZ87]

I guess I never saw it that way because I was believing her that it was over. She said she wouldn't go out if she moved out, but she betrayed my trust and I just can't believe it when she tells me she won't go out. I don't know what to say to try and change her mind. She is pretty set in her ways. It is funny, she had the A, and she is making the rules on how we work this out. She didn't like it when I told her that. Constantly I am second guessing myself when I know I shouldn't be thinking that way. An arguement we had the other day got a little heated and I brought up the A. She told me to get over it. How on earth am I to get over it when it was going on at the begining of July. She is pretty unreasonable with how she thinks we should be progressing. I just don't know what to do. I'm lost.

[Devildog]

Chaz, it doesn't sound like she feels any remorse over the affair at all. Without her feeling remorse, without her being willing to do everything possible to put your fears to rest, you can't get anywhere. I'm sorry, but in order to save your marriage, you should be deciding what is acceptable. If she can't get on board with what it is you need to repair the damage she inflicted, then she isn't really interested in saving the marriage. And there is zero hope for your marriage if that is the case. Tell her if she moves out she will not be moving back in. Tell her once she leaves that door is closed. Right now she figures she can continue to make a fool of you. Stop letting her.

[Bryanp]

I wonder how your wife would be feeling if at the beginning of July you were screwing another woman, putting your wife's health at risk, lying behind her back, making a mockery of your marriage and then you tell her she should just get over it? I doubt she would say O.K. lets forget it. She simply "does not get it." Protect yourself in every way possible. I wish you luck.

[CHAZ87]

DD it is always nice to hear from you. She tells me constantly that she hates herself for what she did to our family and most of all, me. I believe she is sincere about it too. She says she has nothing else to hide and tells me everything. I just don't know what to believe because the trust is not there. It is hard for me to take her at her word, which I rarely do. If she did nothing at all, except do everything to put my mind at ease, I think we would be ok, but she doesn't. That is a huge problem with me. Thank you for posting DD.

[CHAZ87]

Bryanp, I was responding to DD when your post came up. If I was doing somebody else in July, I wouldn't be talking with you guys, I would probably be with her enjoying her company instead of working OT. My SO, she doesn't consider us husband and wife anymore, it is complicated. We had a very rocky marriage with abuse, verbal and physical, never with my hand though, a cup. I threw a plastic cup at her and split her lip. I moved out for two days and got counseling for my anger. The reason she doesn't consider us husband and wife is, she doesn't want the life we had, we want a new life. Renewal of vows and all that sort of thing. If she knew I was doing that behind her back, she would have taken me to the cleaners. Oh, and if the roles were reversed and I was the one who had the A, we would only talk through a lawyer. She wouldn't give me a second chance. She would do whatever it took to keep me from my son as well. But here I am, the one who thought the most unforgivable sin was infidelity, trying to work it out with my WS. I wish it would just ring in her head what I am trying to accomplish. My mind said in the begining, F-it, find somebody that will only open their heart and legs, for you. But I have been with her for 11 of my 27 years, to much history there.

[Devildog]

She tells me constantly that she hates herself for what she did to our family and most of all, me. I believe she is sincere about it too.

 

I think the reality here is that she hates that she got caught, she hates that she can't continue like that. Or that she hates the fact that she feels guilty. And she doesn't want to be reminded that she should feel guilty. Her demanding that you never remind her that she betrayed you, her demanding that you "just get over it already" is a very selfish action. But then again, having an affair is a selfish action as well. A pattern perhaps?

 

Bottom line, she has to work to regain your trust if your marriage is to continue. And that takes years of being absolutely open on her part, hiding nothing. You are right, there is no more unforgivable transgression than infidelity. And you can't just "get over it" in a few weeks time.

[CHAZ87]

DD, I have read your thread in it's entirety, twice. I have been using it to try and find some helpful things to use, but the contrast just isn't there. She tells me she wants to work it out. I tell her the right thing to do is be open about everything, but the Dr. she works for tells her she doesn't need a warden or to be treated like a child. But I have read the surviving an affair chapter in "His Needs, Her Needs", and in that it states that the WS should be an open book going as far as making a 24 hour schedule to where the WS would be at all times. To check in and all that stuff. My SO, if she truly wanted it to work, would do that for me. I just feel like she doesn't want to ease my mind. She is being very selfish and uncaring. I wish I knew what to do.

[Devildog]

Wow, I'm not sure I could read through my thread twice anymore.

 

I know this is an old cliche, but it's still true. "Actions speak louder than words". She needs to show you that her words are not empty. And right now, she isn't doing that. She wants you to trust her on her word. But she has already destroyed any trust and any currency her words might carry. She has to re-earn that trust.

 

It is a matter of seeking a balance in a situation like this. Yes, she should be an open book for you at this point. No secrets, only complete and open honesty. But on the other hand, if you are constantly demanding to read that book, she will feel there is no progress being made to restore that trust. While she might in fact deserve a warden and be treated like a child, it would prove counter-productive to act in that manner.

 

My best advice in this situation is this: you need to travel the road to recovery together. You can't stand on the highest mountain and expect her to climb to you. She will tire of that in time. It will only work if both of you are working towards each other. Yes, she should be doing most of the work, but she needs to see some reward for that work. She needs to see progress no matter how small.

[CHAZ87]

 

It is a matter of seeking a balance in a situation like this. Yes, she should be an open book for you at this point. No secrets, only complete and open honesty

.

I feel the same way. I, for some reason, believe she should be doing this. Not for me, but for us. If she truly wanted to work on this, she should want to do this, without me asking. That is the porblem, she sees being honest as a burden. How can we fix this if she feels this way

But on the other hand, if you are constantly demanding to read that book, she will feel there is no progress being made to restore that trust. While she might in fact deserve a warden and be treated like a child, it would prove counter-productive to act in that manner.

 

But then you write this and I totally agree with the meaning of this. If I truly knew where her heart was, I shouldn't push it. But to build the trust that is gone, wouldn't you think it essential for repair.

 

My best advice in this situation is this: you need to travel the road to recovery together. You can't stand on the highest mountain and expect her to climb to you. She will tire of that in time. It will only work if both of you are working towards each other. Yes, she should be doing most of the work, but she needs to see some reward for that work. She needs to see progress no matter how small

.

 

Very well written Marine. I am glad she reads on this website. I should get her to read your thread. My problem now is my mind, my own worst enemy. Problem is, the most formidable I have faced.

[CHAZ87]

Wow, I'm not sure I could read through my thread twice anymore.

 

 

 

Shouldn't have to man, you lived it.

[Devildog]

What kind of honesty are you seeking from her? Are you asking her to be honest and forthcoming about the affair? She might not be ready for that. I don't see where it should be a problem for her to be honest with you about where she is and what she is doing and who she is with post-affair. That is where rebuilding the trust begins. I think that is what bothers me about her decision to move out for awhile. It's like she is asking you to prove you trust her, and then she will start showing you she deserves that trust. That is backwards. She has to take those first steps to rebuilding trust by proving trustworthy. And that can only happen through open honesty. Not from being able to hide what she does.

[CHAZ87]

I don't want to know $hit about what she did with him. That would kill me. My mind is already bad enough. I would like her to just be honest with me and some of the things she is doing just don't support us. I found out she had a second email account, I found out about it and she told me it was the one she used to email OM and one of her friends. Well the other day she was on the computer and she has repeatedly told me she has nothing to hide. So I told her to log on and show me. She back-stepped a little. Said she needs to have some kind of privacy. So I bacame very suspicous. Told her if she had nothing to hide, she would have logged on. On the other hand, my email is always open. She reads every single email I get. I have nothing to hide though. She likes to accuse, but there is nothing there. I wish there was a magic pill for this $hit.

[Devildog]

The impression I get from her reaction is that she is either not done seeing the other man, of there was more than one other man. Either way, it raises serious suspicion.

 

Moving forward from here is impossible until she is willing to come clean and be open with you. There is no wiping the slate clean and starting anew. It doesn't look very promising.

[Ladyjane14]

Moving forward from here is impossible until she is willing to come clean and be open with you. There is no wiping the slate clean and starting anew.

 

"Wiping the slate clean" is the #1 goal here. And it needs to be MUTUAL. That's what you should BOTH be striving for.....and it's going to take TIME to get there. That means every sin, every grudge, every resentment....since you first met each other needs to be put away. That's the goal.

 

You've been getting excellent input from DevilDog. He's been through what you're going through himself, and more than that....he's come through it unjaded. He's a great guide for you.

 

When you posted your first thread Chaz, you had NO HOPE that your marriage could be saved. It seemed to be over. And yet here you are.....still in it. That's progress already made.

 

It's not easy to recover from infidelity. Resolving the marital problems that caused it to begin with are a priority. While the decision to seek outside the marriage for unmet needs is TOTALLY the responsibility of the unfaithful partner....still there were problems in the relationship which caused emotional division. They still exist, and they still need to be addressed.

 

You've gone from a guy with NO CHANCE to a guy who has possibilities. It's imperative that you concentrate on the relationship in order to preserve that.

 

Now, if Mrs. Chaz is reading along still..... I recommend to you the posts of ThumbingMyWay. Both he, and his wife have posted here after a REALLY nasty bout of infidelity. He does a GREAT job of illustrating the emotional quaility of the situation. I think when you read his posts, you'll see how very important it is to reassure your man that you have adopted a NO CONTACT policy with the OM. TMW illustrates the hurt of it all, but he also shows us hope and patience and persistance.

 

Chaz needs to know that you're being open with him. And it'll be exhausting for you prove it to him again...and again...and again. There will be times when you feel the urge to give up. But it has to be done like that. That's just the way it is, and it seems somewhat universal.

 

Have faith though. It does get better. It's just takes a good, long while to accomplish it. (Try also the threads of DazednConfused.)

 

You can't expect your man to react to infidelity in the same way that a woman does. He's NOT a woman, and his outlook is different. He feels threatened in a way that is fundemental to his masculinity.

 

There's a natural aversion to female infidelity that threatens him at a core level. Afterall, a woman can be certain of her own maternity in a way that a man never can be sure of paternity. As a human animal, in the matter of genetic instinct, the only way he can be sure that his DNA will be carried on....is to keep rivals away from his female. That's nature. It's fundemental. And you've screwed with it.

 

To Chaz, remember that no matter what a person has done....they can only live in the doghouse for so long. And even when a person has done something REALLY wrong, they have to reach some kind of peace and forgiveness within themselves in order to keep going on. They are living in their own skin afterall. They can't get away from themselves. They're forced to come to terms with it.

 

Often, for a BS it seems that they are sweeping it all under the rug. I don't think that's true though. I think that they're just trying to keep moving forward.

 

I can't guarantee you that your wife is maintaining NC. But what do you have to lose by exercizing some patience? If she's still cheating....it will become evident over time. If she's not, you might frustrate her irreparably with your on-going insecurities.

 

BOTH of you need to work at understanding the other's position. You'll lose the precious ground you've gained if you don't.

 

My best advice in this situation is this: you need to travel the road to recovery together. You can't stand on the highest mountain and expect her to climb to you. She will tire of that in time. It will only work if both of you are working towards each other. Yes, she should be doing most of the work, but she needs to see some reward for that work. She needs to see progress no matter how small.

 

I agree with this almost entirely. The only small exception being that you need to be doing EQUAL work.

 

In a perfect world, a WS would be doing the bulk of the relationship work. But let's face it, if they were perfect people....they wouldn't have gone outside of the marriage. Unfortunately BS's end up doing ALOT of marriage-building. But it ends up being well worth it should the reconciliation be successful.

[CHAZ87]

It has been awhile since I have heard from you LJ. Believe me, I do listen to what DD says. He is very wise. She told me today that she told him we have been intimate while they were together. She told me, he has nothing to say to her anymore. Well this info would have been great before we had a HUGE arguement on Wednesday. She is still animate about moving out. Should I just let her go. We are doing nothing but hurting right now. No matter what I say or do, she won't change her mind. We have lost alot of ground and it was due to her still training with OM. Now that she is not doing that, where's the problem. But she waits until AFTER our huge arguement where we agreed to separate to tell me. If she would have told me the day it happened, this thread would not exist. But the thing is, I did not get mad about the training, I got upset that she was at the gym 3 times that day. The same day she told him what we did. I did notice that she logged onto LS and read what I have posted so far. Don't know how much she read, I was on my way home. We have both read "His Needs, Her Needs," and I ordered "Surviving an Affair." On top of all that, I start my IC on Tues. I totally regret the delay, but there was some confusion with my refferal. Excuses are like @ssholes right? My biggest problem is, I saw her continuing training with OM, even when we decided to work it out, as a sign she was more concerned with herself. Also, it took her almost 2 weeks after we decided to work it out to finally tell OM. Because she didn't want to hurt him the way she hurt me. That caused some resentment. She kept saying that he was taking the hint, which he never was, so he broke it off with her. The next day he IM'd her asking for her back. Not knowing we were falling deeper in love. Well, that bred more resentment. She started seeing him almost daily for training, more resentment. The reason I had the resentment was becasue she was so indecisve about ending it. He ended up back with an ex. And now our lives are FU(ked-up. It may well be over between us.

[Devildog]

Believe me, I do listen to what DD says. He is very wise.

 

You all have no idea how much it scares me to hear people say that sometimes. I don't know that I am wise, but I know I have been to hell and back a few times, and you are bound to pick up a thing or two along the way. I guess I have always had something of a gift for reading other people's relationships. The problem for me has been that when I am directly involved, I lose that outside perspective. It looks different from the inside.

 

And with all due respect to LadyJane (my Morpheous) I don't know that I came through it completely unjaded. I am alot more guarded with most women. A few special ones get inside now, but they had proven themselves before all this happened. But enough about me, this thread is about Chaz.

 

She is still animate about moving out. Should I just let her go. We are doing nothing but hurting right now. No matter what I say or do, she won't change her mind. We have lost alot of ground and it was due to her still training with OM. Now that she is not doing that, where's the problem.

 

I think at this juncture, it might be best to let her move out for a bit. Perhaps she needs a bit of time away from seeing the hurt she has caused you to really get herself together. It's possible that she is overwhelmed with guilt for what she caused, and seeing you is a constant reminder of that. Sure, this path carries risk. You might have some hard times trusting the situation, but honestly, what is there to lose?

 

The next day he IM'd her asking for her back. Not knowing we were falling deeper in love. (snip) It may well be over between us.

 

If you guys were falling deeper in love, then there is hope. Don't be so ready to concede defeat. You are getting an opportunity few of us get, a real chance to fix your marriage. She is reading the books, that is a step. Is she willing to consider couples counseling? If not right not, keep going to IC. If she sees the difference it makes in you, she might get onboard with it.

 

Look at Ladyjane's situation. She brought her marriage back from the brink, and by all accounts, her marriage is better now than it ever was. It can be done if both of you are willing to atleast try. It will take a great deal of strength on your part, but it can be done. DON'T GIVE UP!!!

[whichwayisup]

The thing is, it may be over but she still isn't thinking clearly. Sounds like she's still addicted to the feelings this OM made her feel, like a high from a drug. Until she sees this and accepts her mistakes, is a complete open book with you, things will be the same as they are now.

 

And her being accusing to you is reflecting the blame onto you because of what's she has done/doing.

 

I hope she comes around and realizes wtf she's done, makes a huge effort to work with you and doesn't move out.

 

Oh and DD is wise...Just like dear Owl! (Sorry Owl, I couldn't resist... )

[Ladyjane14]

We have lost alot of ground and it was due to her still training with OM. Now that she is not doing that, where's the problem....

 

Also, it took her almost 2 weeks after we decided to work it out to finally tell OM. Because she didn't want to hurt him the way she hurt me.....

 

She started seeing him almost daily for training, more resentment.....

 

There has been quite a bit of division, between her words and her actions. Her words say that she's willing to work on the marriage. But her actions say she's still involved in the affair.....at least on some level.

 

If this was about "training", and that was the TRUE goal....she'd have found someone else to work with or she'd have done the work on her own. Running a marathon or bodybuilding is NOT something that you risk your family dynamic for. That doesn't even begin to make sense. It's affair babble.

 

You've been reading here for awhile Chaz, so I'm sure you've heard people refer to affair behavior as addictive.

 

The thing is, it may be over but she still isn't thinking clearly. Sounds like she's still addicted to the feelings this OM made her feel, like a high from a drug. Until she sees this and accepts her mistakes, is a complete open book with you, things will be the same as they are now.

 

I agree with WWIU. Even if the affair is over, she's still reacting to the addiction.

 

The continuation of contact was feeding it. She was provided with a little rush everytime she was in contact with OM. It fed her self-esteem to receive the attention. The drama of it all made her heart pound a little from time to time, and removed her from whatever rut she considered her life to be in. Dopamine was being released in her brain.

 

When she's no longer in contact, there will be a withdrawal phase, just like with any other addictive substance. She'll likely be fairly surly while she licks her wounds. She probably won't want closeness with you at that time. YOU prevented her from being happy with OM, and she's going to blame you for ruining all that.....until she gets out of the fog.

 

Lots of WS's completely ruin any chance they have for reconciliation during this phase. They lash out while suffering through their own pain, and hurt their spouse even more than they had before.

 

The window of opportunity for reconciling a marriage is of brief duration. You can't hurt somebody continuously over a period of months at a time, and expect it to be otherwise.

 

When you read Devildog's thread, this was almost palpable. As the hurts piled up, like straws on a camel's back, his ex-wife ran the unknowing risk that one day he would lose ALL motivation to take her back. And he did.

 

His ex-wife thought she knew what she wanted. She thought what she wanted was a divorce, and she thought that there would still be a relationship with DD afterwards. Maybe it was that rosy "amicable divorce" fantasy, where your ex still loves you....and is still willing to provide an emotional safety net for you. Who knows?

 

But the problem with all that is, the window eventually closes. Often, it closes quite suddenly, and the BS himself can't even predict when it will happen. All he knows is that one day, the only thing he wants in the world is for his wife to love him and make their family dynamic whole again. The next day....he's just done with her, couldn't care less what happens to her, and would NEVER consider going back to the bad place he was in before.

 

If you follow DD's advice and let her go....(and I think you should).....she needs to know all that. She is running a huge risk. I do NOT think that you'll still be available to her when and if she wants to come back. I think she'll lose you completely if she makes this move. But if she is indeed adament, there's not much else you can do but let her know that her decision may end up as a FINAL one...and then let the ball be in her court.

 

There were LOTS of times in my marriage when I really wanted to leave; when I wanted some space. The thing that stopped me was the emotional quality of my husband. There was about a 50/50 chance of him taking me back if I was gone for a short duration and was still faithful during my absence. But if I had allowed him to accustom himself to a life without me in it....he'd have NEVER taken me back. If I had hurt him and then just abandoned him to heal his own wounds as best as he could...he'd have locked me out of his heart forever. That's just the way he is.

 

There were LOTS of times when he would DEARLY have liked to take the Marriage Sabbatical as well. In fact, when we had our crisis...I suggested it to him. At the time, I wanted a divorce, and I wanted him to leave the home. So, I put that option on the table. "Why don't we just take a year off from the marriage. You go and do whatever it is that you need to do. Then, after a year, we'll revisit the question of if we want to be together or not. (????)"

 

That was a fat-ass LIE on my part! I wanted him out of the house....and would NEVER EVER have taken him back if he'd been fool enough to take me up on it.

 

The look of hope on his face, as he considered his options, hurt me about as bad as anything he had done. I didn't know about affair addiction at the time. But I could almost SEE the wheels turning in his mind as he considered that he could possibly act on his feelings for OW...and still keep his home-deal going.

 

Fortunately for us both, he's known me for 25 years...and he didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday!

 

He asked me later on, if I had really meant any of that. And I had to admit that I was just saying whatever I had to say to get him to leave. I had been scared of him.

 

During our confrontation, I had made sure the kids were out of the house, I had my keys and my cellphone in my pocket, my shoes on my feet, and the DOOR close at hand. I was afraid of him in those moments. His actions had turned him into a stranger in my eyes. I didn't feel like I knew him at all.

 

To his credit, the knowlege that he had actually frightened me did make him weep. He didn't realize how changed he was while under-the-influence until he was could see my reaction to him, like he was some kind of monster who might actually hurt me.

 

Anyway Chaz, the reaction you're seeing is very likely related to the affair addiction. It's up to you, how you'll deal with that. My husband was able to realize that he was having a problem and to ask for my help with it. In return, I nursed him through until he was strong again. My husband is a particularly smart guy though.

 

Too many WS's rely only on themselves; gun-shy from the original problems in the relationship, and unwilling to ask for the support they need.

 

Too many BS's are busy nursing their own hurts, and have no help to offer.