mohhoss213 Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 Ladies, is it a deal breaker if a guy is bad with body language (his and understanding a woman's) and not having good fluidity within a conversation? By fluidity, I mean being able to come off as engaging and keeping the flow of a conversation going. I guess I'll have a lot of moments where I get stuck or am unsure of what to say next or how to say something on my mind. I have started going back to therapy, since I have high-functioning autism, and part of what I've been working on is being mindful of how I present myself (through expressions and tone). I've gotten better at reading people's faces and body language. But, I still find it overwhelming and difficult, at times, to be conscientious of my own body language cause I can be fidgety and often have a aloof/confused look when I'm contemplating something and forget to maintain eye contact lol... But, I kinda can't help but be anxious that I may be ruining the attraction or coming off as kinda weird and creepy. I just never understood why bad body language and having trouble being engaging could lead to judgments like that. Edit: Just wanted to clarify I'm not generalizing and saying every girl will do this. Just wanted to see what goes through a girl's mind in this circumstance and whether it is something that is not a complete deal breaker is all.
Garcon1986 Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 Well some women who have been on a lot of dates feel like they don't have time for someone with bad body language - as someone working through the troubles of high functioning autism I would just ignore those folks; they will only be blows to your self esteem. Forget about the type A women for now and seek out someone who is patient and mild mannered. For others, they may be willing to overlook your character flaws to a certain degree depending on what other redeeming characteristics you provide. Props to you for recognizing your troubles and working on them. I think the most helpful first step is to work on your social skills like you have never before worked on anything in your life - devote yourself to it like a religion. Most men who don't practice dating since they were 13 have some degree of what you are troubled with. Then, go through the 6 step Garcon process: 1. Step one - portray yourself at all times in the most well dressed, fashionable man you can be. Ask your salon's advice on what is the most physically attractive haircut that will go with your head. Use gel if needed. Physical attraction cuts both ways. You may be able to attract a hot girl, but you must accept that certain hot girls will never date you no matter what redeeming qualities you have because you are NOT THEIR TYPE. 2. Step two - portray yourself socially amongst women as a relaxed and easygoing man, who is willing to have a fun conversation. You must beat the stereotype that you are shy, and can only have certain kinds of conversation, regardless of the fact that women unfairly apply the stereotype through no fault of yours. 3. Step three - surround yourself with hobbies that you enjoy, which women simultaneously enjoy. 4. Step four - spend at least 1 month of solidly talking to a different woman every day, and get over the "stagefright" of approaching a woman you like. You should also spend time getting friendly with women, solely for the friendship, without worrying about fighting the friendzone. The idea behind doing this is to be comfortable in your own skin around attractive women. Failing to do this step proficiently will result in you losing your opportunity once a spectacular woman comes your way, because you will be rejected for being weird. If you are a consumer of porn, it needs to stop right now. It will be like trying to come off heroin - but if you choose to continue porn, a real relationship will be like trying to taste Italian spice after eating tacos with spicy red hot sauce - like an effing candle compared to a blowtorch. You will have such distorted views of women that dating will be meaningless. At this point, you stop and pause for a moment - you are about to jump into dating. If you were not totally comfortable in stage 4, you need to spend an additional month doing it until you are comfortable. Secondly - women will operate in the dating scene based upon what feels right - not based upon what logically is correct or what a man's internal rubric says they should do. Women will do irrational things to you based upon what feels right or wrong at the time, it's a fact of life. 5. Step five - take notes on women around you who show you indicators of interest (playing with their hair around you, a sustained smile, sustained eye contact, asking to be with you, etc etc). Focus initially on the women who like you, and now ask a few of them out on a date. If that particular woman likes you a lot, go ahead, be a man, and kiss her on the way home. Focus on the difference between an interview, a date, normal conversation, and flirting conversation. Focus on the fact that you are getting experience. Don't go for your favorite spectacular woman just yet. Take a step back, smell the roses, and congratulate yourself on some good dating experiences at this point. If you have sex, wonderful. Mentally step back and take in the experience. 6. Step six - now go ask out your favorite woman and see how it goes. If it fails, rinse, repeat, try again. Never fail in your determination, and try not to get too depressed from rejection. It happens to everybody - keep your head up and use Loveshack as a sounding board. That's the summary of thousands of dating coaches advice. That's really all there is to it. Hot guys have it easier because women's defenses are lowered, they have lots of charm, and less hoops need to be jumped. But for everybody else - we follow steps 1-6.
d0nnivain Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 The tough part of this is that some folks will interpret your awkwardness / lack of fluidity / autism as a reflection on them. They may be so self absorbed that they think you are hesitating because you are just not into them. I'm a chatty person. My husband is a stoic introvert. After our 1st date I cried my eyes out because I misinterpreted his quiet reflective personality as aloofness. I'm glad I hung in there because we have been happily married for 10 years. Just be you, granted with your best foot forward but be true to yourself. 2
Author mohhoss213 Posted January 3, 2019 Author Posted January 3, 2019 To Garcon1986, Wait so you have high functioning autism as well? Also, I want to address a few specific points with you: 1. Why do I have to be well dressed at all times? Is it unattractive to want to be comfortable as far as clothing choices? I'm not saying I want to dress up like a slob or anything. What does being the most fashionable have to do with one's character as a person? 2. I never believed in that fake it til you make it stuff. Yes I am mostly easy going. But, it's not like I can tell my brain to not be anxious and overthink like it's something I can control. Part of is the existing neural pathways that are there. 3. So, explain the association with being anxious about myself and how that correlates to being weird in the eyes of women, according to you? 4. It might not always be a seamless and smooth process as you make it seem to take in all the experiences and not completely eliminate that overwhelmed and confused feeling, even with a lot of experience. 5. My problem is sometimes I don't want to make what I say and how I carry myself amenable to people so I seem more approachable and attractive. I'm a very transparent, blunt person that just wants to be me and not be looked at in a weird light cause my mannerisms don't fall in the norm.
Author mohhoss213 Posted January 3, 2019 Author Posted January 3, 2019 The tough part of this is that some folks will interpret your awkwardness / lack of fluidity / autism as a reflection on them. They may be so self absorbed that they think you are hesitating because you are just not into them. I'm a chatty person. My husband is a stoic introvert. After our 1st date I cried my eyes out because I misinterpreted his quiet reflective personality as aloofness. I'm glad I hung in there because we have been happily married for 10 years. Just be you, granted with your best foot forward but be true to yourself. Truthfully, I am aloof myself because I daydream a lot and also I may be trying to take in a lot of new information and environmental stimuli. Sometimes, that is a process that takes me more than a few minutes. Hence, the blank, confused aloof looks I give off a lot. But, wish there were more patient people like yourself.
Garcon1986 Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 1. Why do I have to be well dressed at all times? Is it unattractive to want to be comfortable as far as clothing choices? I'm not saying I want to dress up like a slob or anything. What does being the most fashionable have to do with one's character as a person? I have some features of high functioning autism but not the complete diagnosis. You need to be well dressed because women want something nice to look at just like you like hot girls. Being fashionable says to a woman you care about yourself enough to express a well kept appearance. 2. I never believed in that fake it til you make it stuff. Yes I am mostly easy going. But, it's not like I can tell my brain to not be anxious and overthink like it's something I can control. Part of is the existing neural pathways that are there. Indeed I agree with you on that one, I didn't like faking it - but women frequently operate on what feels right, not what might be objectively, logically correct. Can't change their behavior. So I had to force myself to reach for my touchy feely mind to get a sense of what the world was like in her shoes. In that way, I got a lot more positive responses and now, this is natural to me to some degree. I'm still not amazing at it. 3. So, explain the association with being anxious about myself and how that correlates to being weird in the eyes of women, according to you? Body language that you generate is reflected back at you. If you are anxious, the woman will sense it because women are generally trained through societal upbringing to be more sensitive to social cues than men are. She gets anxious equals she gets uncomfortable, equals she makes a bad first impression, regardless of whether this was applied fairly or not. This results in you losing the chance for a second date. Therefore, being anxious is a character trait that must be improved as best as you can. 4. It might not always be a seamless and smooth process as you make it seem to take in all the experiences and not completely eliminate that overwhelmed and confused feeling, even with a lot of experience. I agree with that, hence the recommendation to start dating mild mannered and more forgiving women first. I was so confused and flustered on my first date that I was stuttering a lot of the time. It took work to get to my current skill level of being able to chat up any nurse in my hospital. I completely agree that the beginning is painful, and you must have the mental discipline to stomach the pain. 5. My problem is sometimes I don't want to make what I say and how I carry myself amenable to people so I seem more approachable and attractive. I'm a very transparent, blunt person that just wants to be me and not be looked at in a weird light cause my mannerisms don't fall in the norm. That's OK to insist on being yourself. You will subsequently only attract the people who are willing to look past your shy and introverted persona. You will be penalized in a smaller pool of women agreeing to date you - but if you can live with that then you are just fine. We can have a quick detour on social norms here - in Pakistan, it is perfectly acceptable to have honor killings if your little daughter is found to have sex before marriage, or merely suspected of doing so. In the United States it would be a criminal offense to do so, and Pakistanis have gone to jail in the United States for doing such things. Just in the same way that being introverted and having your specific mannerisms are your norm, Your social persona will be unacceptable to a certain population of women - and if you don't want to adapt, that's your inalienable right as a consenting adult. I'm just saying that dating is a numbers game, and you have the potential benefit of attracting a bigger population of women if you work on being a smiling and approachable gentleman.
Author mohhoss213 Posted January 3, 2019 Author Posted January 3, 2019 I have some features of high functioning autism but not the complete diagnosis. You need to be well dressed because women want something nice to look at just like you like hot girls. Being fashionable says to a woman you care about yourself enough to express a well kept appearance. Body language that you generate is reflected back at you. If you are anxious, the woman will sense it because women are generally trained through societal upbringing to be more sensitive to social cues than men are. She gets anxious equals she gets uncomfortable, equals she makes a bad first impression, regardless of whether this was applied fairly or not. This results in you losing the chance for a second date. Therefore, being anxious is a character trait that must be improved as best as you can. That's OK to insist on being yourself. You will subsequently only attract the people who are willing to look past your shy and introverted persona. You will be penalized in a smaller pool of women agreeing to date you - but if you can live with that then you are just fine. We can have a quick detour on social norms here - in Pakistan, it is perfectly acceptable to have honor killings if your little daughter is found to have sex before marriage, or merely suspected of doing so. In the United States it would be a criminal offense to do so, and Pakistanis have gone to jail in the United States for doing such things. Just in the same way that being introverted and having your specific mannerisms are your norm, Your social persona will be unacceptable to a certain population of women - and if you don't want to adapt, that's your inalienable right as a consenting adult. I'm just saying that dating is a numbers game, and you have the potential benefit of attracting a bigger population of women if you work on being a smiling and approachable gentleman. To me, I will still find a woman just as beautiful even in a relaxed look with no makeup and comfortable clothes. I don't expect her to be nice looking for me all the time. I'm not that shallow. I guess I operate under the modus operandi of not letting someone's body language get to me and to look past it. Obviously, if it is extremely obvious that she is uncomfortable or has some look, then I might stop and ask did I say or do something wrong. As far as your last point as far the numbers game, I will nod in agreement.
Author mohhoss213 Posted January 3, 2019 Author Posted January 3, 2019 Indeed I agree with you on that one, I didn't like faking it - but women frequently operate on what feels right, not what might be objectively, logically correct. Can't change their behavior. So I had to force myself to reach for my touchy feely mind to get a sense of what the world was like in her shoes. In that way, I got a lot more positive responses and now, this is natural to me to some degree. I'm still not amazing at it. So, you're saying some women can't look past how they initially feel in their gut and give the dating experience some time to process and maybe step back and think about it objectively? I always say if there are any confusions with me, just tell me and I'll explain myself and be as transparent as best as I can be.
Garcon1986 Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 Actually not letting somebody's body language get to you is a quite respectable trait. It's just not widely used in dating. I would just point out that there are plenty of single women out there who do not have that mindset and assume a closed body language is an expression of disapproval. You'll have to be prepared when women who share that viewpoint come your way. As far as the clothes, I'm aware that most people aren't that shallow - but women have written articles time and time again that they too need some sexual attraction to keep a dating relationship going. No attraction equals "Just friends" for some women out there. 1
Garcon1986 Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 So, you're saying some women can't look past how they initially feel in their gut and give the dating experience some time to process and maybe step back and think about it objectively? I always say if there are any confusions with me, just tell me and I'll explain myself and be as transparent as best as I can be. That's indeed right, some women don't have the time or the inclination to look past closed or disapproving body language. Women have all heard of the stories of the guy with the creepy body language, who ended up being a stalker or worse. No woman wants to end up with one of those guys - so whether or not they unfairly applied that rubric to you, let it be known - that this line of thinking is out there. Many many women out there are trained to trust their gut instinct in a date. I'm just pointing it out as a fact of the dating game, which won't change anytime soon. Dating is so unfair to those of us who have to train in body language, but it is doable. I'm a success story. What you can do however, is be mild mannered and understanding at the same time as practicing your body language - and try to make it less awkward or - start learning how to make jokes out of your own mistakes. There are women out there who appreciate self deprecating humor or the ability to be not so serious with yourself.
edgygirl Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 I am a mega extrovert and most people feel comfy around me. I also love introverts. Maybe say a thing or two about what you said above in your profile so you only get empathetic people for dates? I put a couple of things in my profile that made me sound quirky and I get lots of compliments on them, people say I feel different than other profiles (I have no clue what that means) I wouldn't be horrified if the profile said "working on body language. can explain further".
Gretchen12 Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 I always say if there are any confusions with me, just tell me and I'll explain myself and be as transparent as best as I can be. That's all you need to do. Reacting to body language is instinctual. But you make it seem as if she's being unforgiving. She is a human being that reacts to her surroundings as men do. Usually there is no analysis. When you find someone you really like to get to know, I suggest you write her a letter (email) after the date (same night) and tell her your impressions of the evening. Communicate!
elaine567 Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 5. My problem is sometimes I don't want to make what I say and how I carry myself amenable to people so I seem more approachable and attractive. I'm a very transparent, blunt person that just wants to be me and not be looked at in a weird light cause my mannerisms don't fall in the norm. ^^^ this is a problem. You realise you are coming across as "weird", but you do not really want to change it, instead you want the world to change to accommodate you. That doesn't happen. Also when dating, most try to be on their best behaviour, they try to fit in, to be compliant, happy and easy to get along with, they do not rock boats. There is no room for bluntness or brutal honesty. Therein lies the path to no dates at all or first but no second date... 2
Versacehottie Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 I think you are doing good to address it. The thing about body language is it's non-verbal communication which research has shown is equally or more valuable than verbal communication. Also something which women are more alert to than men generally. I think it's generally seen as something that echoes what is going on in your head so that's why in your case it's important to do your best to take active measures like you are trying to make an effort to come across in a good way. Because if you don't, it will certainly impact your dating prospects and you might not come across as you really are or want to be because you will default to your normal non-verbal communication patterns. I'd be a liar if i didn't say that the total vibe (including mannerisms, body language, non-verbal communication) influenced my attraction toward a guy. Which is also something a person you are on a date with can't control all of--a lot of that will happen for her unconsciously, i.e. she won't be able to put her finger on why she is not into you but she just isn't. So good luck & keep working on the good body language things
preraph Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 You need to work on it as much as you can because no one knows what to do when you act that way. It's that simple. Much less be attracted to someone acting that way. If we can't tell what you're thinking and you can't tell us or communicate, we may think, Oh, he's an okay guy, but we're not going to get a big crush on someone we really can't understand. Everyday example: Worked in a model home part-time and the construction manager worked out of there also. On the odd occasion I'd need to go ask or tell him something and he would just act like I wasn't there. I'd say his name, and nothing. He'd be in his computer facing away from me. I mean, I don't want to be rude to the guy, so I just avoided talking to him. He was being rude, but he had some brain issue also and I knew that, but I still can't communicate with him, so I'm going to avoid him so I don't feel like an idiot.
d0nnivain Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 You are entitled to be yourself, even if you are weird, but in the early stages of dating, that means being your best self: well groomed (comfy is fine; sloppy is not) and attentive. No daydreaming on those 1st dates. Focus on the other person. You have to make the effort to make others comfortable; they have to may the effort to make you comfortable. If you are both working toward a collaboration it will work. To borrow a common catch phrase: Lean In! Smooth over your own rough edges. I can be demanding & opinioned. Even though I'm a woman, I have an Alpha Male personality. I try to be a little softer, a lot less blunt & more open.
preraph Posted January 3, 2019 Posted January 3, 2019 You should be in a support group with others like you and that way you can maybe meet someone who does understand. 1
rightondude Posted January 4, 2019 Posted January 4, 2019 It's a free country. You can dress however you want, act however you want, give off whatever vibe you want. Along those lines, the women you want to attract and who you apparently aren't attracting are free to be put off by your choices in these matters. The "game" exists. You can either play it or not, but either way, it is still happening. 1
dream of me Posted January 5, 2019 Posted January 5, 2019 If a man is fidgety or nervous around me I take it as a compliment and I end up liking him much more than I normally would... I know it's because he cares. And I know that because the same happens to me. I even feel nervous and overwhelmed when I sit opposite to my boyfriend instead of next to him or at 45 degree angle (who knows, I may be in the spectrum as well?).
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