Is Courtship Dead? My present case.

[Monrachet]

Me: 38, successful, serial-dater, but also looking for life long romance.

 

When I date it usually starts with looks! This is not shallow as of course catching someones eye across the room is "physical attraction" based. Your curious to find out if she checks the boxes or is completely wrong for you. That is what dating is!

I am serial dater because I am very social. I like to go out and explore the city and what better way to do that then with the company of someone you want to get to know. My upbringing raised me to always be a gentleman no matter what the situation. Stand your ground but also show true chivalry and appreciation for your dates time and commitment to give the date a whirl with you. Pull out her chair, open doors, take her hand as she is getting out of the car and just appreciate her feminine energy. Yet, never be a "Player" and compliment without truly meaning what you are saying.

This at times puts me in "nice guy" zone. I am a "nice guy" but not a doormat. I expect to be treated with respect and to earn that I treat her with respect from the beginning.

If I enjoy her company than I will tell her. If I want to see her again then I will make plans to do so. If she checks off my boxes of what I desire in a possible relationship than I will show her that I put thought in our future meetings.

 

Why the world feels "Courtship" is dead and why I may never learn in this modern world: ( Present Scenario and Why I did not listen to other peoples advice. Lets call it " I hope it works out Case Study) Please let me know your thoughts!

 

Tonight: 12/23/2018 4th date ( have slept with each other twice, known her for a month)

 

1. We met online and started dating. I am out of a two year long relationship that ended 8 months ago. She is out of a 3 year long relationship that ended over a year ago due to her ex boyfriend cheating on her.

 

2. We both expressed not rushing into a full on committed relationship but both expressed our ultimate goal of meeting a fulfilling life long relationship one day with the "right person"

 

3. We are both independent. Possible both dating other people ( I am). We are both respectful of one another's time and even postponed a couple of dates due to "not feeling well" or just needing some "alone time" due to the busy holiday season. Yet, we of course set up the next date at that time.

 

4. Only expressions of commitment thus far have been " I find you attractive, your are fun and I like being around you, plus setting up dates once a week".

 

My Courtship Tonight as a "Are we going to explore this further vs. We are just enjoying one another's company with no thought out intention"

 

We are going to meet up tonight at a botique hotel ( no drinking and driving, I live far away from our date locations, she has a roomate) and take an uber to Botanical Garden Christmas light festival. It is a truly romantic venture as they even offer "proposal packages" in the event. Yet, it is attended by families and 1,000s of other people as well. This was one of my two choices offered for our date, the venue we are going to was her choice.

 

We will have some wine there, make some smores and just stroll the beautifully laid out gardens all adorned with Christmas lights while Holiday music will be playing all around.

 

After that we have a reservation at a "pop-up" sold out Christmas cocktail bar. The whole place looks like the North Pole, with ugly christmas sweaters everywhere, over 40 Christmas trees, cookies, cocktails and just young 30 year old fun.

 

Then the night will ultimately take us back to the hotel and this is where my idea of "Showing you I care" idea comes into being. Feel free to admire or critic.

My Courtship idea: ( Because I want to do it, its from the heart, and she will not be with family for Christmas)

 

I will check into the room before she arrives to meet. ( it is understood that we will be staying in the room that night by both of us)

I will have a plate of half eaten cookies on the table next to emptied glass of milk. A small Charlie Brown Christmas tree will be on the table as well.

Her gift:

A snug casual goofy comfortable Christmas outfit with Slippers. ( she is kinda of introvert and insomniac with some anxiety. She loves comfort)

A gift Card to Barnes and Noble. ( She is an avid reader)

A 6 pack of her favorite beer from her hometown. ( it just now started to be distributed in this city about 4 months ago)

A candle of her favorite scent ( Vanilla and brown sugar)

A bottle of Christian Dior "Joy" perfume. ( She does not currently wear perfume, but she does dress to the nines and I am GUESSING this may just be one of life's pleasures that she does not adorn herself with from lack of financial sense in her case)

 

The idea: Since you will be relaxing without family on Christmas ( we did not make plans to get together and it is way to early to invite her to meet my family) here are a few things to make your Christmas day awesome. Buy a book you really want to read, get snuggled up in a comfortable outfit, light your favorite scent so it permeates your room, and pop open a bottle of your favorite hometown micro brew!

The perfume is to see if she wears it on our next date:)

 

Pros: Hey. I find you beautiful and enjoy your company. I listen and came up with this gesture as I care about you and hope your Christmas is amazing. The gifts are from Santa as I put in a good word for you.

 

Cons: This is over the top. She will think I am moving to fast and will run for the hills!

 

My reasoning: I truly want to do this for her and not for me. If she appreciates the gesture and has romantically inclined feelings of potentially opening up the possibility of a relationship down the road then this is a clear sign that the road is clear.

 

If I don't hear from her at all after the date and our evening together in regards to setting up something down the road after the New Year, then I will know going into 2019 that it was not in the cards for us, but at least I got to meet and enjoy a truly remarkable woman.

 

I do not look at this as a test, though it may see as one. Rather, I look at it as "Courtship" and a more sincere, gentleman like way of saying " I am open to more with you" rather than waiting four more months of "touch and go" game playing until the moment comes up when you have to "Have that talk".

 

Plus, i am a realist. Valentines is only 1.5 months away. It was going to come up sooner or later. Why not now?

 

I am open to any thoughts on this plan?

[Wallysbears]

I like everything except the perfume.

 

It seems out of place with the rest of the gesture. And women can be very particular about scents.

[Monrachet]

Very True. The perfume was an accident in some sense. I was out shopping for a new cologne at Nordstroms. I buy one every year as a gift to myself. I'm a Sommelier by profession so I am big on scents.

Anyways, I was shopping and was called over by a Saleswoman to smell out a few fragrances ( LOL). I really enjoyed the "Joy" as she of course assumed I was shopping for a female in my life. I actually was not. We laughed about it after I told her I appreciated the scent, but that I was shopping selfishly for myself.

I ended up getting Chrstian Dior Sauvage. She then went for the sales kill and said she would throw in a small bottle of "Joy" for 50% off. I was a "sucker"!!!

 

So I can nix the perfume! Or I can throw it in there and she if she likes it. If she does than its a "win-win". She gets perfume, and I get to be around her smelling so sensual. Or, a "win-lose" and she likes it and some other guy gets to enjoy it as I scared her away. Lol

[Wallysbears]

Nothing about what you have described sounds at all scary.

 

It will either cement where you two are or not. I’d guess it will. It is very thoughtful.

[Wallysbears]

A final idea?

 

If you can, get a room with a whirlpool tub and a nice bottle of wine and some nice snacks for “after” all the festivities. And preorder room service brunch.

[Monrachet]

She did tell me once that she enjoyed an Amarone a couple of weeks back. So maybe I will swoop by my local wine merchant here and grab a bottle!

[Monrachet]

Nobody out there who read this actually thought the gifts were a bad idea?

Too much to soon type philosophy?

[eleanorrigby]

Nobody out there who read this actually thought the gifts were a bad idea?

Too much to soon type philosophy?

 

A little. I’d give one of those gifts and save the others for different occasions.

[Purepony]

So what happen any update?

[Purepony]

It does sound like you guys are putting too much thought into this... things like this can never really be planned either happen or they don’t and it just sounds like you both have some sort of a wall but you’re both still trying to make it work but you’re putting in more effort than is necessary but that’s my take on it based on what I read

[hippychick3]

How incredibly romantic and generous you are! I’m very impressed with all the thought you put into this.

 

With that being said, I think it’s way too much too soon for a non-exclusive relationship. I’d cut way back on the gifts and save some for maybe Valentine’s Day if you’re still dating at that time (and hopefully exclusive by then).

[basil67]

You’ve certainly put a lot of thought into this. My only suggestions with the evening is to leave off the Santa stuff and consider that she may not wear purfume because she doesn’t like it. If that’s the case, don’t be disappointed if she doesn’t wear it often.

 

My only other thought is to ask if you will be still doing highly thoughtful productions for her in 10 or 20 years time. I ask this because the average guy would not, and I’d view this gesture with a degree of cynicism. ‘Start out in the manner in which you plan to continue’ is my advice.

[Monrachet]

I will update tomorrow on how the reaction was. Yes, there was some thought into it in regards to making the evening special and putting it out there that I am open to moving a little forward.

 

There is a wall there. We have fun, have great sex and enjoy one another's company when we are together. We then go back to our normal lives, plan another date. Rinse and Repeat.

 

Yet, I don't like walls in relationships if I think it can move forward. This is me peering over the wall and welcoming her to take it down slowly if she has the same desire.

If she does not and is still embracing her wall then for my own purposes of being around someone I can build with in the future, I will let it go and march on.

 

But, don't take it wrong. Its not an ultimatum. Its an invite. Just to see if she shows up to the party or not? If that makes sense?

[Monrachet]

My only other thought is to ask if you will be still doing highly thoughtful productions for her in 10 or 20 years time. I ask this because the average guy would not, and I’d view this gesture with a degree of cynicism. ‘Start out in the manner in which you plan to continue’ is my advice.

 

That is very sound advice! Yes, I will. I am creative at heart and do things that many seem as "over the top" or "out of left field" . It goes back to my upbringing. My father told me never to bring a rose to a date!! Its unoriginal. Show her that you listened and bring something you are sharing and giving her, not bribing her.

 

So this is my way of showing I care and as long as I do care for someone ( her or another down the road) I will show up in this manner.

[chillii]

Just because the US might feel courtship is dead it doesn't mean the rest of the world feels that way matter what stats and articles get plastered all over the place .

l don't think it's anywhere near dead here and never has been.

l mean we might not call it courtship as such but even after being married 20yrs and ending up back out there, from a relationship point of view this is, not just this dating dating sex thing that seems to be all over the internet, it's still the same beautiful build up it always was.

Even my first gf after divorce , actually came from the US , although she was italian and so a whole different animal to what seems to be the typical over there, but hell yeah , she was very much beautifully old school as l am myself, well except for the beautifully part haha.

But if l talked about how she ticks or even how my gf now ticks and works in all this , here, as l've seen a few European and others try to do , it just isn't understood and taken completely wrong, almost shunned in the forum.

So nope l don't think it's anywhere near dead thank God , in other places.

 

 

But your a serial dater , so l doubt you could even tick that way or understand it yourself as too so many others or say what seems to be the typical through forums.

The whole dating dating sex sex thing that seems to be all through forums now, is a world away from the other side of things .

Edited December 23, 2018 by chillii

[basil67]

Yet, I don't like walls in relationships if I think it can move forward. This is me peering over the wall and welcoming her to take it down slowly if she has the same desire.

If she does not and is still embracing her wall then for my own purposes of being around someone I can build with in the future, I will let it go and march on.

 

But, don't take it wrong. Its not an ultimatum. Its an invite. Just to see if she shows up to the party or not? If that makes sense?

 

It makes sense that you want to see her without the walls, however I can't see how this gesture would bring down walls. I would imagine that if the walls are to come down, it will happen as she gains trust in you. Trust that you're seeing only her and that you are growing to love her. Trust that you're thoughtful in every day life rather than in elaborate gestures.

 

I would imagine that being exclusive would mean far more to her than this production. Of course, if the walls still don't come down even when you're exclusive, then it would be time to move on.

[SunnyWeather]

honestly, this is way too much. if you are still just dating, it prob would be better to pull back a little (it seems a little bit obsessive the way you've thought about all of this, it's fussy and very un sexy, imo)

 

how about just narrow all of those gifts down to something simple, yet elegant. if it's in your budget, a simple bracelet or earrings. if that's out of your budget, a nice designer scarf (hopefully you know her color preferences). Maybe have some nice flowers already in the room. Someone suggested room service, how about having champagne and chocolate strawberries waiting for when you arrive after a night out?

 

oh, and forget the santa cookies thing, it just seems so childish. flowers and champagne are much sexier

[Larry56]

It's not that Chivalry is dead. It's more that Men woke up to the idea that chivalry doesn't get you the girl. The thing that gets the girls is being the *guy* women want and a bit of chivalry but it's not chivalry just by itself.

 

You have to be the guy women like to begin with. Also...it's pretty obvious to most guys who've seen a few things that what women will do for one guy isn't necessarily how they'd treat another guy even if they both did exactly the same thing.

 

It's kinda like this. If a woman went out with Ryan Gosling and then went out with Danny Devito...Do you think Chivalry is gonna help DDevito get a second date? and I'm pretty sure Devito has more money than Gosling.

 

Some women will stay with the worst type of guy but it's not down to his actions it's down to WHO he is. Yes I know women want a romantic guy but they are more than willing to put up with some knuckledraggers than they'll let on. Yes it might hurt their brain a bit when she has that Saturday night struggle when he wants to sit on the couch and eat chips out of his beard while talking about sport.

[Larry56]

Also...I really think everything you're doing is way over the top. I mean...all that stuff sounds a bit superficial...you barely know this woman but you're moving heaven and earth for someone you havern't even qualified. She's gonna think it's desperate. I would only do one of those things...everything else is a bit overkill.

[lana-banana]

One small present is fine. That number of presents on your fourth date feels like overkill. And they're also a little presumptuous for someone you barely know. What if she doesn't wear perfume because of allergies, sensitivities, etc? And what if she hates that particular scent?

 

Theatrical gestures are fine if you know the other person appreciates it and it's enjoyable for you both. Otherwise it can cause resentment and anxiety. You already know she's introverted and anxious; as a fellow anxious introvert, I would really hate this.

 

I also have to agree the Christmas cookie thing seems weird and childish. I would think it looked like you wanted to set out cookies for me, then ate half because you had no impulse control.

Edited December 24, 2018 by lana-banana

[Monrachet]

So this is how it all went down. I also thank everyone's opinion. This is what the forum is for is to express opinions from different perspectives and experiences. So you heard my perspective, so this was the experience:

 

We went out to the Garden Glow and had a cocktail as we made are way through the light show. We shared some laughs and the occasional bump into each other ( We did not hold hands as it was cold and we kept them in our pockets).

After that we made our way to the Miracle Bar that was all decked out in Christmas cheer. As we were talking she was opening up more about her family and her thoughts on the world.

One that caught my attention was that she wanted to skip Christmas this year! I dug a little deeper even joking about her Grinch like stance. Her response is that it is like an "Old movie that she has seen many times, so why not skip it once." I found this to be kinda of deep and kinda sad. She then stated in passing that the decorations and music was "helping" get her back into the mood.

We got some collectible Santa mugs and had some egg nog and just sat there talking away about her desire to change her hair color. It was brunette before and her family was taken back to see her in person as a blonde. ( She has been blonde for 4 years). I asked her what she got for Christmas and she said a couple of things and that her Mom had gifts for her in the mail. ( She was just there last weekend to see them, red flag)

We paid and grabbed another Uber back to the hotel. She is shy so I did most of the small talk with the driver and cracking jokes. At some point the discussion lead into my dates desire to have her own Island, that way she could decide who is worthy to come on. ( Once again, dark!)

We got back to the room to drop off our things before grabbing some food. She noticed the gifts ( Comfortable pajamas, soft blanket, Barnes and Noble gift card, a 6 pack of her favorite beer and a candle). I told her it was for her relaxation time with her books and to have a merry Christmas.

Her reaction was suprised but not to taken back. Yet, Also not romantically appreciative. Yet she did say how thoughtful and perfect it all was.

We go to dinner and the conversation about dancing at a bar we talked about before came up. I told her we could go. She smiled, smirked and then said lets do it!

The bar was located within walking distance of her place. This was her neighborhood in the city. She commented to see if I was ready to hang around the "hipsters". I am a social guy and have been in the middle of almost every situation one can imagine, this was just another venue to me. Yet, I was dressed like a 30 year old professional, so was she. She is not a hipster in appearance, but is in some of her "edgy philosophy".

I even remarked before getting the Uber that she could drive there if she wanted. ( A "get out of jail free card" to just pause the evening since I just gave her gifts at the hotel room.) She quickly said no, that's silly.

We went to the bar and it was "hipster" central. Everyone was mid 20s with some mid 30 lost souls mixed in. I only say lost souls because a face tatoo without a platinum selling rock ballad may not be the best long term investment. Also, you can tell by the barrage of fireball shots! We grabbed a table and just talked and laughed. She smiled intently and the eye contact was fully there. We ended up at another location on the same strip of bars. This was tiring to me as I am at a stage in my life that I am over the "Lets hit all five bars on the same strip looking for something that we will never find."

It was getting late so we went back to the hotel. We were tired and just casually retired to bed. She was fully clothed and the cuddling was there but it felt more like I was in bed with a two year long girlfriend ( minus the clothes aspect). I could have been more forceful on the intimacy and tried to seduce onto sex but I just let it go.

I let it go because I know I put a test on her by getting her the gifts. I know that the reaction was appreciative but not sentimental full on. I did not want to then try and make her feel like she owed me something. We woke up in the morning. Ordered room service and then left the room. We hugged. I wished her a Merry X mas and we went about our day.

 

Conclusion:

I am happy and have no regrets for getting her those small gifts. It was not a bribe for affection but a genuine thing I felt I wanted to do for her. I also wanted to see if there was a reason to keep moving forward.

I played my hand and was courageous enough to show my cards after a month. To me it was New Years resolution. 2019 is coming and I want you to be a part of it with me. Here is your invitation. You can RSVP or not and now the ball is in your court. I have big plans for the year for myself as I am sure she does as well. I just invited her to think about whether our plans were to be shared and grow, or if she was still " on her Island".

 

No Contact Rule:

I know the philosophy of putting yourself out there like I did is a "no-win" game in a lot of ways. Yet, life and love is a gamble and there is no such thing as a sure fire strategy. You just play with your "gut".

I am satisfied and respect myself that I was courageous enough to put myself out there. There was no fan fair surrounding the gifts nor did I present myself as a "hey, look what I did for you" type of guy. I was casual about it. It is now all up to her. If she reaches out in the future than I know she has put some thought into it and wants to hang out again. If she does not, then I know that it was not our time, or I was not the guy. Until, then the record keeps playing so I will keep dancing.

 

I put my true self and feeling out there. Here are my cards! I like you, you check a ton of boxes of what I look for in a woman. I want to get to know more about you and move forward. Yet, if you do not than at least I showed you my true self and that I do have the ability to love and comfort. With that all out there, I walk away.

 

" The most powerful position in life and in your self that a man can be is to be true to himself and have the courage to walk away and never look back"

 

Any thoughts on all of this is highly appreciated. Merry Christmas everyone!

[Lotsgoingon]

... We got back to the room to drop off our things before grabbing some food. She noticed the gifts ( Comfortable pajamas, soft blanket, Barnes and Noble gift card, a 6 pack of her favorite beer and a candle). I told her it was for her relaxation time with her books and to have a merry Christmas.

Her reaction was suprised but not to taken back. Yet, Also not romantically appreciative. Yet she did say how thoughtful and perfect it all was.

 

Wow, I applaud you for putting yourself out there ... not holding back ... I did think the gifts were too much ... too soon ... But here's the bigger problem with the gifts ... they are way too generic.

 

OK, someone's favorite beer. Beer is easy to get ... so maybe if you're throwing a dinner party and you have her favorite beer ... fine ... A blanket ... a blanket is nothing specific ... Same with pajamas ... "Nice." But who walks around saying "He bought me a great blanket!"? ...

 

Barnes & Nobles gift card ... almost ... I dated a woman who wasn't all that into me ... but she knew I loved books ... Guess what? For my birthday, she bought a highly acclaimed book that was on my subject of interest and was hot on the bestseller list ... She knew I didn't own this book because she had carefully looked at my bookshelves. I still think of her (long after she dumped me) when I see this book, and think, dang that was a good gift. Totally tailored to my interests. I was impressed that she figured out to that this was a great gift for me!

 

And there is a larger problem ... Gifts in themselves are meaningless. Gifts cannot spark romance. Gifts cannot create attraction. Gifts can be garnishes on top of a great attraction and connection. But only garnishes.

 

Sounds like you're in the same place you were in before all this work. And what did she get for you?

[smackie9]

I dunno....

 

I find romance is in the actions of one, not in a pile of gifts. Like, walking around holding hands drinking from a flask of holiday cheer.