Touching in church and judgmental comments from her friends

[dice980]

We’ve been dating for about 10 months now.

 

We’re in our 40s.

 

Early on -- like within the first week -- she brought up the whole love languages thing and had me take the test. I realized what I sort of guessed, that I’m a “touch” person -- and just as explained by the languages, it’s not a sexual thing in this context, just how I show and grow affection. She took the test too at the same time (I’m guessing she’s taken it before), and she said touch was No. 2 on her list.

 

I started going to her church about 1.5 months in. It’s a very modern, non-denominational church. Loud music, openess, tattoos everywhere... you probably know the type. The pasteur never fails to deliver a welcoming, non-discriminatory message.

 

Fast forward through the relationship... all is pretty good. We’ve had two or three “moments” but nothing really related to this.

 

Then once in early summer she asked me to stop rubbing her knee because it was overstimulating. I didn’t even realize I was doing it, but stopped. I asked her then if I casually touched her too much and she said, “sometimes but not really” and sort of laughed it off and we moved on. As I thought about it, I realized that I had started touching more (initiating hand holding, arm around shoulders, hand on her knee while driving, back rubs) but to me all is that escalation was a natural progression and a result of feeling closer.

 

However, as time went on, I also realized that I was almost always the one who initiated touch. I wondered if “touch” really was one of her love languages, but figured she would speak up if so. She’s very forward with her opinions usually! And I mean that in a good way.

 

Now, fast forward more to yesterday. She spent the evening with some of her girlfriends. Before bed, she asked me to call. After some small talk, she said, “XXX and XXX brought up the touching in church. I guess they notice every weekend. They sit down and say to each other, ‘when’s he going to start mauling her?’ And then they wait for it.”

 

I sensed that she was sensitive to their statement, and I asked how she felt about my touching.

 

She said that she thought it was “probably too much” and that I needed to dial it back.

 

To explain, the “touching in church” is strictly limited to a) my arm around her back, resting on the top of her chair and b) holding her hand. I may occasionally squeeze her shoulder if I’m feeling particularly close.

 

Personally, I don’t feel in any way this is over the line (and, oddly enough, the pasteur just wrapped up this Sunday a sermon on being overly judgmental and putting your personal convictions ahead of loving and helping others).

 

Back to our conversation, I asked her if her problem with this was coming from HER convictions or if it was because she didn’t want to be judged by her friends (who, by the way, are single and have been for a very long time).

 

She really didn’t answer but defended her friends, saying they weren’t judging us and they they were just pointing out it was too much.

 

(I find that explanation bogus because that’s exactly what judging is, isn’t it? -- particularly with the smart aleck comment about them asking each other “when’s it going to start?”)

 

I tried to stay on point and told her if it’s really about her friends’ opinions, that I didn’t want to change based on that, particularly when I don’t think putting my arm around her or holding her hand is bad. I added that if it’s based on her feelings of what’s appropriate, then we should talk about it in that context.

 

I did tell her that I did felt judged, and a little awkward because of it, and I apologized if holding her hand or putting my arm around her made her feel uncomfortable in her church.

 

She seemed a little flustered, and she never did answer my question about whether this was her conviction or not, but I suspect it is.

 

Our discussion was not heated in the least. I wouldn’t even call it an argument.

 

However, I need some help here...

 

1) I know this is impossible to answer about this particular church without attending, but in general do you think an arm on the chair back, squeezing the shoulder or holding hands in church is excessive?

 

2) If she is asking me to stop holding her hand, etc., because her friends want us to stop, I have a real problem with that because I think it means she’s going to let their opinions dictate other aspects of our relationship. Am I right to be concerned?

 

3) If she is asking me to stop because that’s how she really feels, I have less issue with that because I need to respect her boundaries, but if that’s the case, am I setting myself up for long-term failure if the touch “love language” really isn’t something she’s comfortable with?

 

Thanks for any thoughts.

Edited November 21, 2018 by dice980
formatting

[preraph]

Yes. That would be appropriate at a movie theater maybe, except for back rubbing (prolonged). She's asked you to stop. Others there thought it was excessive. Church is no place for foreplay. Arm around sitting on the back of the pew is one thing. Putting her in a death grip is another. Not everyone enjoys being touched on the knee either. She's mentioned that, so you should not do that as often and not at church or in public. A lot of people hate public displays of affection. She sounds in between on it, but she wouldn't be talking about it if she didn't wish you'd peel it back just a little in public and definitely not do it at church. Holding hands is okay if the person likes to not have one of her hands free to do other things with....so just not for long, you know.

 

It should be no big deal to you to just stop it at church and overall just peel it back a little. It doesn't mean she doesn't love you. It can be smothering if it's all the time, and also seems proprietary to some extent. But I'm sure she wouldn't ever want you to just stop being affectionate entirely. Good luck. Don't expect her to be other than she is.

[Veronica73]

1) Personally, no, I don’t think that level of physical affection in church is inappropriate. As long as it is affectionate and not sexual. Isn’t God supposed to be about love? But that’s me. And if her friends are describing it as “mauling” maybe it is more over-the-top than you think? Or a super-conservative church. Or maybe her friends are jealous.

 

2) If my friends were uncomfortable with the level of physical affection my boyfriend was showing me, I wouldn’t say anything to him or change my behavior unless it made me uncomfortable as well. That being said, it’s never been more than a hand on the knee, holding hands, or an arm around my shoulder. We’re not sticking our tongues down each other’s throats or stroking each other in front of other people.

 

3) Everybody is different. I can see if you are doing it in a proprietary way, or you ALWAYS have to be touching her, it could get pretty annoying. But everybody is different and has different preferences towards that.

 

Is it that she doesn’t want you to hold her hand at all, or more when you are with her friends or at church?

[PRW]

1) I know this is impossible to answer about this particular church without attending, but in general do you think an arm on the chair back, squeezing the shoulder or holding hands in church is excessive?

 

2) If she is asking me to stop holding her hand, etc., because her friends want us to stop, I have a real problem with that because I think it means she’s going to let their opinions dictate other aspects of our relationship. Am I right to be concerned?

 

3) If she is asking me to stop because that’s how she really feels, I have less issue with that because I need to respect her boundaries, but if that’s the case, am I setting myself up for long-term failure if the touch “love language” really isn’t something she’s comfortable with?

 

Thanks for any thoughts.

I know what type of church this is. They are generally pretty loose about this kind of thing. Her friends are probably more "strict" than the church is. But it also depends on the church staff's view on it which can vary from church to church even within the same type of church. Sooner or later it will come up in a sermon and then you will know for sure. Now if you get married they will figure you can stick your hands wherever you want,...except in church of course.

 

#1. I don't think that is excessive. I the 1970's and earlier some churches had a 6 inch rule in that there had to be a 6 inch gap between you when sitting. I doubt that is very popular now. The only thing Scripture ever warned against was "Inordinate displays of affection", and the theologians have been arguing over the definition of what that consists of for over 2000 years (literally).

 

#2. I think it is that. Peer pressure. You'll probably just have to roll with it. If you fight it then you will become a wedge between her and her friends, and they will become a wedge between the two of you. Sometimes you just have to adopt the idea of, "When in Rome do as the Romans do".

 

#3. Most likely it is #2, otherwise she would have said something a lot earlier.

Edited November 21, 2018 by PRW

[central]

Don't go to church; stay home in bed. Problem solved.

[dice980]

To be clear, there's no hand on knee or anything sexual at church at all, just hand on chair back and holding hands. She's never, though body language or words, suggested it was too much.

 

Don't expect her to be other than she is.

 

Right. My worry is she has been pretending that it doesn't bother her (going back to her very early "the touch love language is my no. 2" comment). I don't want her to do that. I want to know what she wants because I don't think it will work out if she isn't being honest about this.

[dice980]

Is it that she doesn’t want you to hold her hand at all, or more when you are with her friends or at church?

 

Where we left it was I would dial it back at church. I don't want to make her feel uncomfortable at all.

 

My intention now is to figure out what's really behind this -- her bowing to the judgment of her friends, or whether this is what she really wants? The answer to that determines how we approach it and, ultimately, whether this can work out.

[Gaeta]

Where we left it was I would dial it back at church. I don't want to make her feel uncomfortable at all.

 

My intention now is to figure out what's really behind this -- her bowing to the judgment of her friends, or whether this is what she really wants? The answer to that determines how we approach it and, ultimately, whether this can work out.

 

 

If she didn't care what her friends think she would not have mentionned this to you, she would have brushed it off. Her friends opinion is important and there is nothing wrong about it. When we care about people we care about their opinion.

 

 

 

I think the arm around the shoulders could be dropped. Hand holding is a pretty private gesture of affection, the grab around the shoulder is not private. You go to Church 1 hour a week, it's really not a big sacrifice on your part.

[Lotsgoingon]

I've certainly seen couples hold hands (wholesomely) in church. Perhaps the hostile eyes are because you guys aren't married? ...

 

Just some caution: It's not your job to figure out if your gf is merely bowing down to the opinions of friends or if she's genuinely uncomfortable with your touch.

 

The reason this distinction is unimportant is that either way you're staring at a ten-foot-deep pothole right in front of you. One way your gf has no backbone and is willing to push away affection from her bf because of the superficial views of a few others. The other way your gf is genuinely uncomfortable with your touch, which can only be off-putting and frustrating for you. One problem is as bad as the other.

 

In fact, the more I think of it, the more it makes sense that both problems are at work. She is likely super-sensitive to the views of her friends ... AND ... she's uncomfortable with touch. For example, someone really comfortable with your touch (even if she was sensitive to peers' critical eyes) would have made it clear to you how much she likes your affection.

 

Red flag this problem and examine it closely as time goes on. You can now go through your memories and think about how comfortable your gf has been about touch all along. GREAT memory that she has NOT been the initiator of affection all along--bookmark that. That's highly relevant here.

 

Yes you might have stumbled upon a disconnect between you and your gf.

[basil67]

I'm trying to get a handle on whether or not your touch style is too much for the average girl. Has this been a problem in your past?

[dice980]

I've certainly seen couples hold hands (wholesomely) in church. Perhaps the hostile eyes are because you guys aren't married? ...

 

Just some caution: It's not your job to figure out if your gf is merely bowing down to the opinions of friends or if she's genuinely uncomfortable with your touch.

 

The reason this distinction is unimportant is that either way you're staring at a ten-foot-deep pothole right in front of you. One way your gf has no backbone and is willing to push away affection from her bf because of the superficial views of a few others. The other way your gf is genuinely uncomfortable with your touch, which can only be off-putting and frustrating for you. One problem is as bad as the other.

 

In fact, the more I think of it, the more it makes sense that both problems are at work. She is likely super-sensitive to the views of her friends ... AND ... she's uncomfortable with touch. For example, someone really comfortable with your touch (even if she was sensitive to peers' critical eyes) would have made it clear to you how much she likes your affection.

 

Red flag this problem and examine it closely as time goes on. You can now go through your memories and think about how comfortable your gf has been about touch all along. GREAT memory that she has NOT been the initiator of affection all along--bookmark that. That's highly relevant here.

 

Yes you might have stumbled upon a disconnect between you and your gf.

 

Thank you. I think this is spot on, with one quibble. I think it probably does matter what's behind it because that will drive the conversation as we talk it through. I suppose that will come out soon enough, though.

[dice980]

I'm trying to get a handle on whether or not your touch style is too much for the average girl. Has this been a problem in your past?

 

No. My last girlfriend was more into it than I was. The problem with that relationship is there was just too much distance and there were too many practical logistical hurdles with kids and job schedules to overcome.

 

The last girlfriend probably wasn't average, though -- definitely not in the PDA department.

[dice980]

If she didn't care what her friends think she would not have mentionned this to you, she would have brushed it off. Her friends opinion is important and there is nothing wrong about it. When we care about people we care about their opinion.

 

I think the arm around the shoulders could be dropped. Hand holding is a pretty private gesture of affection, the grab around the shoulder is not private. You go to Church 1 hour a week, it's really not a big sacrifice on your part.

 

I think you're right on both counts.

 

The more I process this, the more I think this is 80% her and the friend comments may have even been manufactured as a way to "let me down easy" by blaming it on someone else. (That white lie might be it's own issue, but definitely not to the level of a deal breaker.)

 

However, placing the blame on comments of others would have definitely been an odd choice considering the sermon the very same day the comments were allegedly made was about not judging others based on your personal convictions, how that damages the church, runs off good people, is a cancer to the congregation, wasn't something Jesus did and certainly isn't something that is the prerogative of women or men.

Edited November 22, 2018 by dice980
missing word

[ExpatInItaly]

I think your girlfriend doesn't know how to be honest with you that she doesn't like you touching her much, in general.

 

It's not just in church. You said she asked you to stop rubbing her knee, which is something you don't do in church anyway. Correct? So in my mind, this is not just about contact in church, though she's not comfortable with it there either.

 

I don't think she would have shared her friends' comments with you if she didn't also feel the same way, OP. She's trying to send you a message here and probably figured if you knew other people feel the way she does, you will stop.

[nodramallama]

Having spent a good portion of my (past) life in a contemporary, yet, evangelical, church, I guarantee that her single-for-a-long-time friends are jealous. Most likely, they believe they have "the gift of singleness" and need that label to define themselves in a world of coupledom.

 

How long was your gf single prior to meeting you?

 

Usually the arm around the shoulders was seen in married couples in church. Definitely no hand on the knee. Holding hands is very sweet and appropriate and discreet.

 

How does she react to affection outside of church? Are you able to hold hands walking down the street? If her uncomfortableness with it happens only inside a church, perhaps putting all physical affection on the shelf for an hour or so during the service is needed. Small price to pay in the grand scheme of things.

 

How much does religion play in her life outside the church? Is she a born again Christian?

[Stomper]

Ah yes, the "Sisterhood".

Seen far too many of those over the years.

 

The issue is not the touching, the issue is that they disapprove of you and your relationship.

 

So you have a choice:

You can go to Bible (/Bludger) College, and proclaim your aim to "Serve God" by becoming a Missionary/ Pastor/ Evangelist/ Prophet and start your own church in 27 different countries.

 

Or you can tell the Sisterhood to get stuffed.

 

Given they are friends of your GF, I suggest the following approach:

 

Make an appointment to see the Pastor (or, depending on the size of the church, whomever is designated to deal with matters of "counselling".)

Invite your GF to attend, after you have made the appointment.

Be contrite, and ask for guidance on what is acceptable, whilst explaining that you are sorry to have offended anyone, but also feel hurt by their criticism.

[d0nnivain]

Where we left it was I would dial it back at church. I don't want to make her feel uncomfortable at all.

 

My intention now is to figure out what's really behind this -- her bowing to the judgment of her friends, or whether this is what she really wants? The answer to that determines how we approach it and, ultimately, whether this can work out.

 

What difference do her motives make? She wants you to dial back the physicality in Church. You agreed to do that. Case closed.

 

Whether it's her or her fear of her friends' negative opinions the outcome is the same: stop touching in Church.

 

If she's OK with your touch every where else, give up this one hour per week.

 

If you continue to probe at this, you will annoy her & it may reach a point where she is just done. So tread lightly & don't make a mountain out of a molehill.

[kgcolonel]

I think you're right on both counts.

 

The more I process this, the more I think this is 80% her and the friend comments may have even been manufactured as a way to "let me down easy" by blaming it on someone else. (That white lie might be it's own issue, but definitely not to the level of a deal breaker.)

 

However, placing the blame on comments of others would have definitely been an odd choice considering the sermon the very same day the comments were allegedly made was about not judging others based on your personal convictions, how that damages the church, runs off good people, is a cancer to the congregation, wasn't something Jesus did and certainly isn't something that is the prerogative of women or men.

 

I hear what you're saying here however, many people have the misconception that those attending church regularly are "better" people in that they adhere to the messages from the sermon more closely that others. This simply isn't necessarily true. I'm one that if I become distracted by anything during the service, I don't even hear the sermon....my weakness not the fault of anyone else. That said, my guess is the the "friends" have become obsessed and probably did mention this to your GF but your GF was likely already feeling this herself. Now she is, like you say, able to justify her comments to you as being noticed by others.

 

Just what i see going on with this issue.

 

KG

[Art_Critic]

If it were me I'd be tempted to change churches but only after doing what your GF has requested and then finding out the friends meddling hasn't changed.

 

To me the issue isn't the PDA (church version) but rather her friends using it to create a wedge in between you two and that can't be fixed since they are her friends and she will not see they are trying to break you two up or just being mean to both of you.

[dice980]

I think your girlfriend doesn't know how to be honest with you that she doesn't like you touching her much, in general.

 

It's not just in church. You said she asked you to stop rubbing her knee, which is something you don't do in church anyway. Correct? So in my mind, this is not just about contact in church, though she's not comfortable with it there either.

 

I don't rub her knee in church, just an arm on the back of her chair and holding hands.

 

I don't think she would have shared her friends' comments with you if she didn't also feel the same way, OP. She's trying to send you a message here and probably figured if you knew other people feel the way she does, you will stop.

 

I agree with this the more I think about it.

 

If my friends told me they didn't like something about her and my relationship that I thought was fine, I would probably tell them to "go screw themselves" and laugh about it with my GF later.

[dice980]

What difference do her motives make? She wants you to dial back the physicality in Church. You agreed to do that. Case closed.

 

It means everything.

 

If she's bending to the will of meddling and holier-than-thou friends: major deal breaker. I'm not dealing with that dynamic for another week, let alone the rest of my life!

 

If she just wants me to stop putting my arm around her in church: OK, I can do that for awhile and decide if it's something I feel OK with. If so, we'll keep trucking. If not, I'll move on.

[dice980]

Ah yes, the "Sisterhood".

Seen far too many of those over the years.

 

The issue is not the touching, the issue is that they disapprove of you and your relationship.

 

Ugh... I've seen signs of this around the church and in other aspects of her life where she's seemed to chase their approval.

 

My last GF was much more independent. She didn't really care what other people thought, except for her kids and me.

 

So you have a choice:

You can go to Bible (/Bludger) College, and proclaim your aim to "Serve God" by becoming a Missionary/ Pastor/ Evangelist/ Prophet and start your own church in 27 different countries.

 

Or you can tell the Sisterhood to get stuffed.

 

Given they are friends of your GF, I suggest the following approach:

 

Make an appointment to see the Pastor (or, depending on the size of the church, whomever is designated to deal with matters of "counselling".)

Invite your GF to attend, after you have made the appointment.

Be contrite, and ask for guidance on what is acceptable, whilst explaining that you are sorry to have offended anyone, but also feel hurt by their criticism.

 

That is an extremely adult response! Good idea.

[dice980]

Having spent a good portion of my (past) life in a contemporary, yet, evangelical, church, I guarantee that her single-for-a-long-time friends are jealous. Most likely, they believe they have "the gift of singleness" and need that label to define themselves in a world of coupledom.

 

Oh man... I've heard that "singleness" term around her and her friends, and in the context I took it as a way to justify why they haven't found anyone to date -- basically admitting you're giving up and celebrating that fact.

 

Of all her friends, only one is in what appears to be a long-term committed relationship, and we don't see them much.

 

She warned me early on that she wouldn't share much about our relationship on social media because that always stirred up jealous reactions in her friends whose "misery loves company."

 

How long was your gf single prior to meeting you?

 

Married about 20 years, very rough drawn-out divorce. She says she basically lived "single and alone" the last two years of it. She finally got through it, dated a guy for maybe a year? Then she was single again for about three months before she dated me.

 

My story is similar except my divorce was fairly smooth and very quick.

 

I was broken up with my post-divorce GF about three-four weeks when I met my current GF.

 

She said from the beginning that her friends held her up and helped her get through her divorce, and I'm sure they did -- the cynical part of me thinks probably because she was so miserable and they enjoyed being around that.

 

She always warned me that she would never "turn her back on them," which I thought was an odd thing to point out because what would that have to do with me? As I think about it, it's probably because the "singleness" world fears losing on of their own to a strong relationship...

 

Usually the arm around the shoulders was seen in married couples in church. Definitely no hand on the knee. Holding hands is very sweet and appropriate and discreet.

 

How does she react to affection outside of church? Are you able to hold hands walking down the street? If her uncomfortableness with it happens only inside a church, perhaps putting all physical affection on the shelf for an hour or so during the service is needed. Small price to pay in the grand scheme of things.

 

Except for the one comment in early summer about "over-stimulating" rubbing (which I took to refer to the physical aspect of it, not the "closeness," if that makes sense), she's never complained.

 

As I said earlier, though, she rarely is the instigator, always waiting on me to grab her hand. However, I always took that to be due to (and please don't take this as sexist; it's from her), her comments in other contexts that it's "the man's responsibility to take the lead on certain things" -- e.g., she expects me to text first (usually), call first (usually), initiate date ideas, be the one who initiates sex, etc.

 

How much does religion play in her life outside the church? Is she a born again Christian?

 

She is very up front about her thoughts on God and religion. However, she is not someone who stays bottled up. We go to concerts, bars (probably too much), drink lots of craft beer (probably too much) and have fun in a lot of ways. She swears like a sailor.

 

She's really a very fun person, and I want things to work out if they can.

 

We both have been baptized, me when I was a teenager and her maybe 10 years ago?

[losangelena]

Will echo the notion that her friends sound jealous—women in their mid-40s should mind their damn business—and that your gf is too easily swayed by the social pressure that a church sometimes cultivates.

 

Tell her she should get new friends, ones who are actually supportive.

[preraph]

To be clear, there's no hand on knee or anything sexual at church at all, just hand on chair back and holding hands. She's never, though body language or words, suggested it was too much.

 

 

 

Right. My worry is she has been pretending that it doesn't bother her (going back to her very early "the touch love language is my no. 2" comment). I don't want her to do that. I want to know what she wants because I don't think it will work out if she isn't being honest about this.

 

It's no mystery anymore. It's come up twice. She's tried to kind of make it because of other people because she's careful not to offend you -- but it's come up twice. So this is a very simple remedy. Stop doing any of that at church. Of course you can put your hand on her back to guider her into the pew or gentlemanly things, but do not be touchy at church. You can put your arm around the pew for a short time. You're just overdoing everything. If you're in doubt, look around and see what other men are doing. Don't go beyond that. Keep your hand off her knee at church. It's foreplay.

 

Then outside of church, keep most of your affection at home, and in general on ALL of it cut it by half. She is feeling smothered and like you're clingy, but she loves you and is careful not to hurt your feelings. It makes you seem insecure to have to claim her body all the time, and that's a position of weakness that will backfire on you. Just stop and stop worrying about it and make the change. Good luck.