Does my date have possible borderline tendencies?

[Butlerist]

hi guys

 

I wanted some of your help/advice on matters. I was introduced from a family friend to a woman. They gave her number to me and I got in touch by messaging. They told me she was a lovely woman who had a kid and was separated. So I already had doubts, but I thought 'be open minded' and who knows.

 

I initiated and we started messaging each other but nothing intense. I would drop cheeky innuendos in there and she would return the comments and by day 3 or 4, she had sent me a pic of herself looking gorgeous in her gym outfit. Within one week, we met at a bar. She's a very attractive woman. She sat down next to me and boy did she know what to do. Without a hint of a lie, within 2-3mins of sitting there she put her arms around my neck and kissed my lips very softly in a sort of 'so good to see you' sort of way. I was majorly turned on and kissed her and started whispering all sorts of things in her ear. Now, these are things that happened and things she said to from that moment up until around now:

 

* She took both of my fingers to the back of her throat. I told her, hold up we're in a bar, people around, but she didn't seem to care.

 

* She started licking my ear (i know those reading must be finding this hilarious, but heck it was good but also way over the top).

 

* I merely mentioned that watching people is something I like doing at bars and that people's body language intrigues me, like the couple opposite. She literally started pointing her fingers at them to which I said 'woh...can't be pointing like that, it's rude'.

 

* She came back to mine and although she told me 'should we be doing this', we were getting it on from the moment we entered. I then went to put a condom on and she said "you don't have one night stands, do you? I don't. So why put that on?". I responded back with "because it's the right thing to do" and continued to put it on and we had sex. Absolutely mind blowing!

 

 

* She said to me "I'm not sure if I should be telling you this, but I have only had 3 months where I used contraception. I know my body. And I have only slept with men who I ended up being in relationships with". I was like 'but that doesn't make sense as you don't wait until you are in relationship and have sex, but you have it from the beginning and a relationship develops'!

 

* Started referring to me as 'my handsome man'. I distanced from that instantly.

 

* She started telling me about her previous relationships and how the man she was with had been overly possessive and was living in the dark ages and would tell her not to look at other men. She claimed it was the hardest thing she ever did but left him.

 

* I would receive whatsapp photos from her every few days with her in her underwear and sexy poses and claiming she had just taken that (when in fact she hadn't) and sent it.

 

* During a phone sex session last week, she was playing with herself and mentioned something like "next time you bang me, it's going to be without a condom mister". I was like "no it won't be".

 

* She had relationships after him and mentioned how one guy was just a super nice guy and that he had a terrible friend who kept trying it on with her when she was around and that she couldn't tell the friend about his actions as she felt bad. The guy apparently tried coming on to her and messaged her on fbook and she had to 'block him'.

 

* She told me a female friend of hers fancies her and on two occasions when she got drunk, her friend started kissing her and tonguing her.

 

* She says she likes role playing and one guy she was seeing apparently wanted to fool his friends as they had not met her, so they went out and he pretended to just walk up to her and then licked her face which shocked his friends and then they all laughed about it as he introduced them as a girl he was starting to see.

 

* When I told her about someone mutual we both know, she said "yeah, I know her, she is a very nice woman. Oh she loves me...big time".

 

 

* When she was 15yrs old, she came to this country and didn't have much friends. At college, some guy who also had a girlfriend asked her to come and sit on his lap and the girlfriend turned around and called her a ****ing bitch in front of everyone and embarrassed her. She then went and apparently beat the living daylights out of that girl to show her never to do such a thing again.

 

*For the last 2 weeks, she has been consistent with her messaging. And in fact very sweet and always leaves a kiss etc. She messages in the mornings, but lacks emotional depth and everything is quite literal. I find that she doesn't get sarcasm a lot and that even though she is a scientist (yep, you read that right), i don't get a sense of depth from her. But let's say I leave her a whatsapp recording in one long go and mention things, she will then respond to each and every one of those things like a robot. So if I leave a recording that says 'just about to head to a meeting and then to the gym, but i'd rather bite your lower lip', she will respond back to each one with a separate recording 'oh you're off to the gym, that's great', then next recording 'i like it if you bite my lower lip', but you can tell there isn't emotion.

 

 

Now, in the last 3yrs, I have come across random women who were super sexy and whose attitudes overlap with this one and I posted about them before, and they definitely were narcissistic and hence I have become rather fine tuned.

 

I think I know the answer, but thought I'd get validation to be honest from some of you who may either see this as helpful information or even tell me to run for the hills.....

 

Thanks again

Butlerist

[Lotsgoingon]

Dude, your alarms are going off ... you've detailed all kinds of behaviors that would trip my alarms ...

 

First of all, she's all over you in an over-the-top intense way ... without even knowing you ... Sounds like you are an object inserted into some game she's playing that you are unaware of.

 

You know the answer to your own question. Borderline or not, she's definitely not safe, emotionally safe ... Run! ... Where is the gradualism, the incrementalism, the step-by-step sharing and development of things? These steps allow us to assess a person and figure them out.

 

This person is zooming at 150 mph already and yes ... very good chance she'll crash the car with you in the passenger seat ... and you'll get thrown through the windshield, and she'll leave you by the side of the road while the police and medics come to attend to you. And when the cops interview, it'll turn out you don't even know her real name.

 

Run, dude! ... Run!

[d0nnivain]

Nobody here can put a heavy duty psychiatric diagnosis on some women we have never met based on your description of her behaviors.

 

Bottom line you either think those things are fantastic & you might want a life time of them or you RUN!

[smackie9]

Follow your gut. You have been through this before...lets hope you have learned enough from your past experiences and run like hell.

[Butlerist]

I agree with you all. I'm merely trying to take my foot off the accelerator right now. What's incredible is that I even spoke to a guy whose friend had gone out with her and even said this girl is really decent. The woman who introduced me to her (known her for a long time) is a sweetheart and she has known this girl since the age of 3. However, what I have noticed is that most of them probably don't have a single idea or clue about what she gets up to in her private life or they just are not tuned in and probably think of her as passionate, fun, loud etc. She may turn up to a load of family gatherings and eat and dine with others and come across sweet, but as we have been intimate, her real personality is rather evident.

[Lotsgoingon]

I hear you ... you're taking in the fact that some people you like seem to endorse her.

 

But as you say, we don't date the imaginary person in the head of a friend. We date a real person.

 

You know that you yourself are different in dating than with friends. Trust your gut here. Do not overrule that gut.

[SunnyWeather]

It's not really appropriate to try and give a diagnosis here.

 

What stands out most for me is that she's pressuring you to not wear a condom. That's a huge red flag. Proceed with the utmost caution.

[littleblackheart]

My sister has BPD and nowhere near does this reflect her behaviour - if I had BPD, I'd be a bit offended that whenever someone is somewhat unhinged, the BPD diagnosis comes out.

 

I too find the contraception comment to be the most concerning (I find it all a bit weird, tbh ).

[Butlerist]

I understand and I don't want diagnosis and don't mean to come across offensive. I'm merely asking whether there are overlaps, which there seem to be, that's all. I'm validating my own thoughts with you all, as it does help.

 

I've done my best to keep things to being as accurate as possible. But my reason for mentioning the borderline stuff is every bit of research I have done in the psychiatric forums seem to point to the below:

 

*exaggerated behaviour.

*making the relations between her and I, more than what they are, such as her references "my man" etc.

*grand sense of self ("she loves me"..instead of what more humble people would respond with and that is "i really like her").

*colossal risk taking with sex.

* extremely gullible. You can just tell by the way she responds back.

*the sudden outburst of violence (sure, she was 15, but i mean that is an incredibly brutal way of responding back to someone who was being a bitch to you)

*telling me how kind and caring she is, yet not saying thank you when I paid for the bill etc.

*telling me she is the favoured child, in as subtle way as possible (again, grand sense of self).

 

The moments of confusion come because this individual has never said a bad word or nasty thing (yet) to me and has been very nice. However, her unhinged behaviour along with the things about her past, don't match this 'nice' individual, hence I know something is off if it makes sense.

[MidwestUSA]

Everyone has some borderline traits; you may never know if she has enough to qualify for a diagnosis.

 

But if you like drama, and maybe want to be a daddy, she's the one. Don't let her hand you a condom, ever.

 

She deep throated your fingers in a bar? Did I read that right?

[Normm]

My exwife was diagnosed as histrionic personality disorder. She might be a mix of that plus some other stuff. Personality disorders are typically a mix of various conditions they are rarely purely one type or another.

[Gretchen12]

She is strange, yes.

But actually I suspect you have bpd traits. You are now painting her black.

[MidwestUSA]

She is strange, yes.

But actually I suspect you have bpd traits. You are now painting her black.

 

Well, like attracts like.

 

OP, you have a history of ending up with a lot of drama in relationships. Have you reflected on why that is?

[Butlerist]

Gretchen, you can say I have BPD. But I'm not so sure if I did have it, I would be on this site validating fears. I am already trying to take my foot off the accelerator and feel bad that I'm writing this, yet I'm trying to protect myself from a possible car crash. Like I said, she hasn't done anything bad to me. Her behaviour though is beyond me. And I'm not trying to paint her black. This is the behaviour I have seen within one week. She has left very sweet and endearing messages.

 

Sure when I sat next to her, the woman was gorgeous and warm and she was sexy. The behaviour though made me uncomfortable. Narcissistic individuals bed men/women all of the time due to their incredibly good looks and charm. Does that mean those people who got a hard on or got wet in that moment, were also narcissists?

[Butlerist]

MidWestUSA - you read that correct. I told her that she had turned me on, because she did. I whispered good nothings in her ear. She then said "let me show you what I would do to you"....grabbed my fingers and deep throated it in the bar. Then licked my ear. You may read this and think 'horse ****'. I love passion. But the fact that she has no subtlety and gave no damn about who was around or who was watching it, was where it made me think she would go further than that without any shame.

 

And no, I wouldn't let her hand me a condom. I have my own ones and even then I'm having doubts as that statement from her would put fear in a lot of people as it did me.

Edited October 31, 2018 by Butlerist

[littleblackheart]

Re the BPD thing, it took my sister a few good months of solid therapy for her to get diagnosed by a pro. I had no clue what my exH was until 2 psychologists told me he may be NPD, and that's only after YEARS of intensive therapy for me.

 

Yet you are all over the internet trying to figure out the mental health of a friend of a friend you had mutually consented sex with on the first meet.

 

Leave the diagnosis (any diagnosis) behind and consider this - are you thinking of seeing this woman again? You don't need anyone's validation for not seeing her again, btw.

[Butlerist]

Littleblackheart, is your sister doing better now?

 

I was on the mental health sites, not to put someone down, but to understand behavioural patterns that I have seen before and refresh the things mentioned in the DSM-5 which are things the American Psychiatric Association has written about. I had met a woman two years ago who was far more forward in her approach and love-bombing, but was using triangulation all of the time and gaslighting me. That woman was an ex-cop been to jail for fraud and was a master manipulator, but I felt it from around a fortnight after we were in touch. This woman is not like that.

 

I am not diagnosing. Merely trying to see if people/others have seen similar traits or behavioural patterns that align with those. Also, I don't think mutual consented sex is the issue here. The things I wrote about exaggerated behaviour, the victim scenario, the demand for intercourse without protection, the beating up of some girl at school is information I have seen in less than a week after i met her. None of that feels right.

 

I haven't set any time for seeing her as yet. However, the fight that one has inside is the sweet side she has shown. Like I said, you see her and she's a sweetie and caring. I'm not trying to make her to be a monster here. Nevertheless, it does ring my alarm bells. Even put aside the condom situation for a moment. When you're a teen, your character has begun forming. The very fact that you would kick the living daylights out of someone for calling you a name, either shows you have learned that trait from someone at home or that there are serious anger issues. Anyway...I'll rest this case for now, but I appreciate everyone's feedback and thanks for taking the time to write.

[Lotsgoingon]

Butlerist,

 

I too suspected an ex had borderline personality disorder and when I confronted her about that, she wasn't happy, and she said she had been diagnosed as having that condition at a low level.

 

But looking back, here's the thing. Forget the clinical diagnosis. Forget it! It's irrelevant. You want to make the judgement that she is good for you or not good for you just on her behavior.

 

In other words, if you are so alarmed by her behavior that you're spending hours googling and researching borderline personality (as I did) you are on the wrong path. (That goes for googling other clinical problems as well.)

 

It's actually none of your business whether she has a condition. You want to act based on behavior. Translation: quit hiding behind the search for a clinical problem, and admit you simply are troubled and unhappy by certain of your behaviors. PERIOD! That's enough to initiate a discussion or break up or whatever.

 

Strangely enough, people in your situation are often looking for an "excuse" for their partner's troubling behavior. No ... if you think she's troubled and want to help, be her platonic friend. We want to seriously date only people who are healthy for us and whose behavior we like RIGHT NOW!

[Butlerist]

Lotsgoingon - I believe the behaviour and things mentioned in that post speaks volumes. Sure, I may have put in the subject line and asked whether this individual has borderline tendencies, but I'm not fixated on this.

 

The diagnosis is irrelevant, but there's one factor here: The only reason we try to define things, such as saying 'this person is borderline' is because it covers an umbrella of behaviours. This umbrella of behaviours permits you and I to say that this individual's actions fall into those categories and although every individual is different, the patterns are there to help you and I to better understand them and identify them as red flags or not. I had wonderful ex-girlfriends whom had a healthy/sound mind. I also had one ex-gf, one short-lived romance and a woman who entered my life without it turning romantic, all of whom showed patterns that were similar. All of them were different, yet all showed exaggerated behaviour, a lot of lying, seriously grandiose of self (sending constant videos of themselves and pictures in sexy poses within first few days), love bombed and made me feel 'good' about myself in a short space of time, were almost always a victim in their previous relationships, always used sex as the primary approach. So when I am searching, I need to sometimes remind myself of this or validate my own thoughts by listening to other people's situations that may align with the experiences I have had.

 

I don't have a problem with being a platonic friend and these are not mere excuses to get out of something. It is to give oneself warnings and understand the possible consequences of taking this further. This woman is a scientist, sweet, bubbly and warm and one of the most physically attractive women I have met. So I would be an idiot to dismiss her, but at what expense? And sure I can be her platonic friend and would be willing to help, but only if she believes she needs it.

[FMW]

As others have indicated, I think you are attracted to women who are off the "normal" spectrum for behaviors.

 

So regardless of why you say you want to understand what's going on with THEM, you really should focus on yourself and why you are repeatedly drawn to certain types. Maybe you should accept that it's just who you are and what you apparently need.

 

BTW, there's no logical reason to feel like you have to be platonic friends with this woman if you decide not to be involved romantically. I think your thoughts along that line show you need this kind of drama and dysfunction to satisfy some need you have. It's not that unusual really.

 

We all get to decide what we roll with, we just have to accept the responsibility and risks that may be involved.

[David33]

No condom with someone who hasn't been tested and you know nothing of their sexual or health history? Oh hell no. Run.

[elaine567]

...and we had sex. Absolutely mind blowing!

 

This is your main problem and you are trying to twist and turn

every which way in order to turn a blind eye to all the other "issues" she has.

It is a common problem.

Women who are "hot" and/or who provide great sex but have unstable personalities, personality disorders or with actual mental health problems cause havoc in the lives of men who become addicted to the great sex...

[darkmoon]

BPDs like to have a hold on their target, hence that sexy first date... hey, it worked, for only now are you questioning her

 

I have been around these lost souls before, and also … why is her ex an ex? whatever went wrong with that?

[Butlerist]

"This is your main problem and you are trying to twist and turn

every which way in order to turn a blind eye to all the other "issues" she has."

 

Elaine - how am I turning a blind eye? I was attracted to her and played a part in the fact that we slept together and I could have met her again but she would 'love-bomb' me the next day and after. Not putting me on a pedestal as such, but still referring to me as her man etc and messaging me on a daily basis bang on in the mornings and evenings with things such as "kisses to you, okay? Kisses that are just for you". You know? One could say "she is being passionate", but having been on the receiving end of something similar in the past, it made me question whether she is buttering me up and making me feel good immediately without knowing me.

 

Darkmoon - it did work, yes. But I recall having a girlfriend for 2yrs whom I slept with after the second date, but she was a beautiful soul and I didn't question it. So it isn't just because a first sex date I am questioning her. More to do with the events that led to it, such as the request to take off protection etc.

 

Now, you ask about why the ex was an ex. She claims that the guy whom she had a child with was possessive and didn't want her looking at other men and that she had to always look at the ground when walking past other men. One week later I asked her 'so how did you meet that man?'. She said 'he was so super shy and we were neighbours. It took him almost 1yr to have the courage to sort of approach me and he told my sister he likes me and through there I realised he likes me and we began chatting from time to time and then a relationship started. But now, he is married to a woman who is just as possessive as he was and I remind him about how bad karma comes around'.

 

The next guy was a polite guy who was super nice and she found him overly nice and it didn't work. Apparently his friend kept trying it on with her and to the point where she felt uncomfortable and couldn't tell the guy she was going out with about that as she felt bad telling him and how it would affect their friendship. She ended up blocking this guy on facebook as he was persistent.

 

Regardless, everything she has told me just didn't feel right.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Butlerist

[Butlerist]

Finding my way - I get why you are saying what you say. But to this day, my ex-gf can call me and talk to me about any of her problems and I am happy to advise her. My style is to coach people, if they want it. I do it my career, i do it in my private life and I'm known in our circle as the person who enjoys trying to help people get through their difficulties. So if this woman needed true advice, I would be capable of it.

 

If I needed this drama, surely I would feel comfortable with this behaviour? I may have a certain level of anxiousness, yes and perhaps by posting this stuff it makes me come across as dramatic. I don't feel at ease with this behaviour though. I have lost sleep over it from trying to work out a way to let this individual down gently as she hasn't harmed me, but could very well do so.

 

None of my long term relationships were with any dysfunctional women. My narcissist ex was no more than 4-5months. Others I met were entirely random (selling of a car, and online) and this woman was a mere introduction from someone.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Butlerist