Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 18, 2019 Author Posted February 18, 2019 So he shows up at church every week pretending to be a man that honors his vows? What a complete hypocrite. No MM does not go to church. Dick does.
Starswillshine Posted February 18, 2019 Posted February 18, 2019 Plenty "devout" churchmen cheating on their wives, so I guess some will also cover up for their cheating friends... On the same token, a lot of extremely devout Catholics (read: priests) do some other deeds. 2
elaine567 Posted February 18, 2019 Posted February 18, 2019 On the same token, a lot of extremely devout Catholics (read: priests) do some other deeds. True, one cannot assume "a Godly man" is a paragon of virtue 1
NotADayGoesBy Posted February 18, 2019 Posted February 18, 2019 I guess I don’t understand why you waste your time grilling and questioning him. Have you tried: “I love you and want to be with you but I’m done being the OW. If you decide to leave your wife come back to me. Depending on how long that takes, I may or may not still be here waiting. In the meantime there is nothing left to say.” No words needed, no long conversations where you try to tell if he is being truthful. Just one action on his part. 6
Amethyst68 Posted February 18, 2019 Posted February 18, 2019 He committed to giving hid marriage a go? By continuing to lie and cheat, by staying out overnight with 'John'? This is the man you continue to insist is always honest with you? It's certainty not am honorable way to act. Most people are not accomplished liars with only one person, it's strange he's very comfortable lying to his wife (and his family) but, in your mind doesn't lie to you. Is this the type of man you want to be with going forward. 4
BaileyB Posted February 18, 2019 Posted February 18, 2019 I guess I don’t understand why you waste your time grilling and questioning him. Have you tried: “I love you and want to be with you but I’m done being the OW. If you decide to leave your wife come back to me. Depending on how long that takes, I may or may not still be here waiting. In the meantime there is nothing left to say.” No words needed, no long conversations where you try to tell if he is being truthful. It’s a good idea in theory, but to do this she would have to let him go and she could potentially lose him... something that she is not ready to do yet. Listening to the drama allows Kat to keep a close eye on what is or is not happening in the marriage, which helps her to predict when he will be free and available to be with her... 2
georgia girl Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 LKK, To all of us, your MM’s story sounds like every other post on here. And your rationalization sounds like exhausting mental gymnastics that you go through to make yourself believe he’s not lying to you. We can all see that he is. I would urge you to go to a counselor and, as much as you don’t want to hear it, go no contact to clear your brain from the fog. If he truly is committed to you, he will definitely come and find you. If you make it conditional on him being single, you may just get everything you have ever wanted. But to continue down this path seems like an exercise in futility. Just my view as a complete outsider who has read only your version of the story. 3
BaileyB Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 Last paragraph... you mean knowing what’s going based on MM’s info he tells KitKat... which could easily be lies. Oh, I’m sure that much of it is... his version of the “truth” or what he wants her believe... The thing is, she believes it to be truth. Which is why she is still listening to his excuses and his future faking. 1
elaine567 Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 The thing is, she believes it to be truth. Which is why she is still listening to his excuses and his future faking. She WANTS to believe as to think otherwise would be catastrophic to her ego... She would be proved to be a gullible fool manipulated by a cad, and his frumpy wife would "win". She cannot back down now, she is within touching distance.. but is she?... time will tell.
NotADayGoesBy Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 LKK, I would urge you to go to a counselor and, as much as you don’t want to hear it, go no contact to clear your brain from the fog. If he truly is committed to you, he will definitely come and find you. If you make it conditional on him being single, you may just get everything you have ever wanted. This. No breakup, no threats, just a chance to take a break, get some space from him and the drama and clear your head. You’re so tangled up in all this complicated web he has spun..really what more is there to say or talk about? Maybe giving HIM space will force his hand one way or the other. You really have nothing to lose. If life is that unbearable without him and he doesn’t leave, you can always go back to being the OW.
BaileyB Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) This. No breakup, no threats, just a chance to take a break, get some space from him and the drama and clear your head. Maybe giving HIM space will force his hand one way or the other. She had that chance when she went on her trip and after she came home, when he went to Hawaii on holiday with his wife. Yet, when he returned... he sent a few texts, she fell back into his arms, and he stayed the night. She tried to force his hand. He waited her out, made a few calls, told her a few platitudes, and... she is right back where she started. OP has just proven by her actions that he doesn’t have to make a decision. There is no consequence for him to continue status quo... BTW, if his wife is suspicious and checking his phone as you believe, how in the world did he get away for the night? She may be frumpy, but I find it difficult to believe that she is that stupid... Edited February 19, 2019 by BaileyB 2
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 19, 2019 Author Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) BTW, if his wife is suspicious and checking his phone as you believe, how in the world did he get away for the night? She may be frumpy, but I find it difficult to believe that she is that stupid... He stayed Saturday and she tried to get into his phone last night (Sunday) when she disabled it. And she is as conflict avoidant as he is apparently. Months of Saturdays and Sundays and no discussions or questions. Finally she tries to break into his phone. He had no idea why his phone was disabled and was confused about it until I told him the only way to disable it was to enter the wrong password in multiple times. Then the lightbulb went on. Did he confront her or ask about it? Nope. I'm not sure she is stupid, just every bit as tolerant as I seem to be. Maybe she is losing patience as I am. Doesn't seem he cares though because he wants to have dinner tomorrow. I may not yet have taken final action, but yes, patience is definitely in a downward spiral. I know ... it's just talk. What's really frustrating is no one seems to acknowledge I am now trying to figure out my own mind and issues; why I can't seem to break away; why I do this to myself. Maybe right now I need to focus on what my internal barriers are that preventing me from pushing through. I've said I'm in therapy and I am. And I've realized some things that are important in my ultimately being able to break away. But hey everyone, let's just ignore that. And this isn't solely directed at Bailey. Thanks for the encouragement on that front everyone. Much appreciated. Edited February 19, 2019 by LilKatKat
BaileyB Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 Kat, it is good that you are in counselling. Absolutely, without question, we all wish you well in your counselling. But kindly, it doesn’t help you very much if we simply hold your hand and give words of affirmation that support you in making poor decisions that put yourself in a situation where you are at risk of being very hurt. You are processing, working through issues that we can’t begin to know... but, I will say that your words do not often match your actions. And often, your words sound like justification and excuses... You may feel that you are working through it and perhaps, in your own way you are... But to us, it sounds like more mental gymnastics as you try to make things be as you want them to be... What is blessedly obvious to everyone here, is not blessedly obvious to you. And, that’s ok. It is a process, and it may take you a long time to get there... Sadly, I just think you are going to experience a world of hurt along the way. I know, it probably doesn’t feel this way... but we, random strangers on the internet, care enough about you to try to save you from that hurt. In the end, it is your journey. You will make your way as best you can, knowing that we are all human and we all have many lessons to learn as we move through this life... We do support you, even if you do not always Feel that way. 3
Aloha123 Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 Hi Lili -- I do actually think and acknowledge that you have made quite a bit of progress, especially considering that you started as one of the ones who truly thought he was going to leave his wife for you from the beginning. I see that you are developing a healthy dose of skepticism, rather than seeing things and him through rose-colored glasses, which I know for myself was a huge break through. The first step is that you have to become "dis-illusioned", in the most literal sense of the word, and I think you have made some strides there. But, I think part of what people may be reacting to so viscerally when it comes to this thread is that your posts are STILL primarily focused on third parties, i.e. him and his wife. HE did that and he told me that SHE said that and I think her actions mean this because that, and he wouldn't do or say this unless that, etc. etc. etc. I can tell you are a very analytical person, but it just feels like you are still obsessively focused on them and you may benefit from NC, even if you tell yourself it's only temporary, if for no other reason than to give yourself a break from all of this wheel-spinning. You might find a sense of relief, even in the short run. 1
elaine567 Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 If she does know, he has it made. He has pushed the boundaries of both women and both have accepted their designated role. BS and OW. Both hanging on for dear life, petrified of losing him. Perfect! 1
NotADayGoesBy Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 That was my point in suggesting a break—not a breakup. You are struggling with all this, heavy in the push pull addiction (I did a lot of reading this weekend on intermittent reinforcement and how addictive it is—depressing and eye opening) so why not step away for a little? It’s too bad you didn’t take advantage of his vacation but it’s not too late to start. The idea of walking away is probably too scary right now, so take this other step and back off and be alone with your thoughts for a few weeks without him yammering all his crap in your ears? How can you dig into your own issues, as you mentioned, when you are knee deep in all his drama and the push pull? It’s too hard. Look at it as going on a mental retreat. What do you have to lose? He’s not going anywhere. 1
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 19, 2019 Author Posted February 19, 2019 I am of the impression if/when she does find out - she will try harder to keep him in his place. For now, she doesn’t know. But when she discovers - she’s knows he’s not going anywhere. If she knew - he would simply say “I’m going over to KitKat’s tonight”. But he doesn’t... he just creates MORE deception by saying he’s going to “John’s”. You are his big secret. I hate to see you in this position KitKat. It really is demeaning and makes me sad for you - that you don’t end this mess and take YOUR power back. At this point his wife has YOUR power in her hands... and she doesn’t even know it! I’m not sure that she doesn’t know. She may not know a name or how long, but she knows. Do you always need actual proof or confirmation to know? No you don’t. Has she asked him and he has denied it? Yes. But if she doesn’t know she’d be pretty naive and gullible - maybe she is. I know if my SO started staying overnight at a friend’s, refused to tell me anything about the friend, refused to invite “him” over, changed his phone password and refused to to give it to me, relented to installing a tracker on his phone on vacation then promptly disabling it on return I would be fairly certain. Trying to break into his phone now is fairly telling. She looking for details and proof. And no, I am not giving anyone my power. I still have the power to end it when I choose. I’m working through that. Right now my main focus is me. I need a clear head to think things through and figure out some things. I’m not obsessing nearly as much as you believe, certainly much less than I used to. I’m getting there but obviously not as quickly as I intended or hoped. I’d rather that than the back and forth. I’ve always been the “when I’m done I’m done” sort. Guess I don’t think I’m quite ready to make it stick so why lose credibility with a futile effort.
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 19, 2019 Author Posted February 19, 2019 That was my point in suggesting a break—not a breakup. You are struggling with all this, heavy in the push pull addiction (I did a lot of reading this weekend on intermittent reinforcement and how addictive it is—depressing and eye opening) so why not step away for a little? It’s too bad you didn’t take advantage of his vacation but it’s not too late to start. The idea of walking away is probably too scary right now, so take this other step and back off and be alone with your thoughts for a few weeks without him yammering all his crap in your ears? How can you dig into your own issues, as you mentioned, when you are knee deep in all his drama and the push pull? It’s too hard. Look at it as going on a mental retreat. What do you have to lose? He’s not going anywhere. I did take advantage of his vacation and mine. While there were calls and messages, it was nowhere near the usual amount and there was no personal contact. That was hard but gave me lots of thinking time and opened my eyes to a number of things about me that I hadn’t realized thus far. As for the push pull, for months now I am the one pushing. Looking for that one thing that will take me over the finish line. I am getting there. Not seeing him or talking to him all day every day is not the struggle it used to be. I find it’s actually ok.
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 19, 2019 Author Posted February 19, 2019 Hi Lili -- I do actually think and acknowledge that you have made quite a bit of progress, especially considering that you started as one of the ones who truly thought he was going to leave his wife for you from the beginning. I see that you are developing a healthy dose of skepticism, rather than seeing things and him through rose-colored glasses, which I know for myself was a huge break through. The first step is that you have to become "dis-illusioned", in the most literal sense of the word, and I think you have made some strides there. But, I think part of what people may be reacting to so viscerally when it comes to this thread is that your posts are STILL primarily focused on third parties, i.e. him and his wife. HE did that and he told me that SHE said that and I think her actions mean this because that, and he wouldn't do or say this unless that, etc. etc. etc. I can tell you are a very analytical person, but it just feels like you are still obsessively focused on them and you may benefit from NC, even if you tell yourself it's only temporary, if for no other reason than to give yourself a break from all of this wheel-spinning. You might find a sense of relief, even in the short run. I’m not nearly as focused on third parties as you may think. When I post about what’s happened it’s more about context and update. As I said to him a couple of weeks ago I’ve been to focused on him and ignored me. Now I am focusing on my issues and me, not if and when he will leave. Heck, even if he left tomorrow I’d not be sure he wouldn’t go back when somebody got a hangnail. For right now, I’m seeing him less than I used to and it’s getting easier. I’m happy about that. Maybe to some degree I’m using him for a dinner, theatre or movie companion it do I think he’s leaving? Likely not. He may love me but he’s attached to her. Didn’t know there was a distinction between the two but yes, you can have one without the other.
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 19, 2019 Author Posted February 19, 2019 Kat, it is good that you are in counselling. Absolutely, without question, we all wish you well in your counselling. But kindly, it doesn’t help you very much if we simply hold your hand and give words of affirmation that support you in making poor decisions that put yourself in a situation where you are at risk of being very hurt. You are processing, working through issues that we can’t begin to know... but, I will say that your words do not often match your actions. And often, your words sound like justification and excuses... You may feel that you are working through it and perhaps, in your own way you are... But to us, it sounds like more mental gymnastics as you try to make things be as you want them to be... What is blessedly obvious to everyone here, is not blessedly obvious to you. And, that’s ok. It is a process, and it may take you a long time to get there... Sadly, I just think you are going to experience a world of hurt along the way. I know, it probably doesn’t feel this way... but we, random strangers on the internet, care enough about you to try to save you from that hurt. In the end, it is your journey. You will make your way as best you can, knowing that we are all human and we all have many lessons to learn as we move through this life... We do support you, even if you do not always Feel that way. Thank you for caring, truly I mean that. I wouldn’t have learned nearly as much as I have but for this forum. I don’t expect support where he’s concerned, just encouragement for the progress I am making and the soul searching which will ultimately get me to where I need to be.
BaileyB Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 And no, I am not giving anyone my power. I still have the power to end it when I choose. I’m working through that. Right now my main focus is me. I need a clear head to think things through and figure out some things. As I said before, she would have to be stupid not to know that her husband is doing “something” he shouldn’t be doing... And while you may be working through this in your own way, for each of us watching this little drama play out... it appears that you have most definitely given your power over to this man and his wife. You have the power to end it - but you don’t. Instead, you wait. And you listen to every little detail he will tell you about their marriage. You are nothing more than a passive observer at this point. You wait for him to finally end it, you wait for her to finally tell her cheating husband that she has had enough. You wait, and you wait, and you wait... You will not agree, but you are still FAR too focused on this man and his wife. You are way over the line here, way too involved in their relationship. You have no power in this situation, unless you take back your power and tell this man that you are done.
anika99 Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 I’m not sure that she doesn’t know. She may not know a name or how long, but she knows. Do you always need actual proof or confirmation to know? No you don’t. Has she asked him and he has denied it? Yes. But if she doesn’t know she’d be pretty naive and gullible - maybe she is. I know if my SO started staying overnight at a friend’s, refused to tell me anything about the friend, refused to invite “him” over, changed his phone password and refused to to give it to me, relented to installing a tracker on his phone on vacation then promptly disabling it on return I would be fairly certain. Trying to break into his phone now is fairly telling. She looking for details and proof. And no, I am not giving anyone my power. I still have the power to end it when I choose. I’m working through that. Right now my main focus is me. I need a clear head to think things through and figure out some things. I’m not obsessing nearly as much as you believe, certainly much less than I used to. I’m getting there but obviously not as quickly as I intended or hoped. I’d rather that than the back and forth. I’ve always been the “when I’m done I’m done” sort. Guess I don’t think I’m quite ready to make it stick so why lose credibility with a futile effort. You are not going to get a clear head as long as you remain in contact with the MM and remain in this affair. You said yourself that your thinking cleared a little while he was on vacation. Thats because of limited contact and no physical contact. Now that the affair is full fledged back on all your level headed thinking has flown out the window. He and his lies are seriously clouding your judgement. 2
BTDT2012 Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 I would suggest that you revisit how you met. I believe his wife has been through this before. Ask yourself whether you would have really left your marriage absent being involved in affair. Is this the example that you want to set for your daughter? You can't be clear headed when you slip back into same thing, different day.
Author PhoenixRising8 Posted February 19, 2019 Author Posted February 19, 2019 (edited) I would suggest that you revisit how you met. I believe his wife has been through this before. Ask yourself whether you would have really left your marriage absent being involved in affair. Is this the example that you want to set for your daughter? You can't be clear headed when you slip back into same thing, different day. Maybe she has although it’s hard to believe he would be so blatant and careless if he had done this before with no intention of leaving. You’d think he would be more careful and discreet. As for me, yes I would have left even without the affair. The affair was a last ditch attempt to revive myself as I was literally part of the walking dead. I had been emotionally absent from the marriage, the abuse was escalating and when he threw our daughter under the bus, there was no going back. The affair did not factor. It often takes one critical factor to push me over the edge and his behaviour with my daughter was it. My daughter actually likes MM. she isn’t thrilled he hasn’t left but understands there may be reasons at the moment. She also knows where I am at and that I’m not waiting at the moment. If it happens great and if not then I will walk myself. I haven’t done it yet but when I do I won’t be going back and time is running out. She’s back home April so I believe I will be in a better frame of mind, having her support. Edited February 19, 2019 by LilKatKat
BTDT2012 Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 she isn’t thrilled he hasn’t left but understands there may be reasons at the moment. She also knows where I am at and that I’m not waiting at the moment. Yes, you are waiting. If you were not waiting, you wouldn't meet with him, much less sleep with him. You're still trying to figure out why his wife stays, when you should be figuring out why you stay. The goalposts keep moving. Take back your power. Make a decision. 3
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