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Posted

All,

 

I described where I am in a previous thread asking for advice about doing what is best for my kids in light of reaching a point in our marriage where I am contemplating divorce or possibly just living as roommates. Of course, as many people pointed out, the ideal world would be a reconciliation between my wife and I, and my kids having two parents that are connected, living together, and still married. However, we have spent the last five years in a downward track and I can say that along that path my love for my wife has slowly extinguished to a point where at least a year ago I could clearly say I no longer loved her. She knows that feeling is gone, and certainly her feelings for me are tenuous at best.

 

Through this process we have done couples therapy, and a number of constructive steps to reconnect. But as was pointed out in the last thread, there are many ways I have either undermined these efforts or at least not given them every ounce of my effort. I want to own that, but it poses a question that I keep confronting.

 

At the core of this, why do I not want to be back in a connected relationship with my wife? Because that has been the answer I wanted at nearly every turn this past five years. I sought advice and counselling, but at the core I wanted someone to tell me its OK to give up. Why have I wanted that?

 

I am curious if others in this forum have struggled with feelings of alienation from their spouse that were persistent. And I'm curious if they found either clarity about those feelings, or ways to communicate them in a constructive way to their spouse that led either to a change, or at least a healthy path. Throughout our struggle I have tried in couples therapy and in our own talks to express the source of this feeling. I have my own narrative for why I feel this way, but I am interested in other people's stories where they have felt something similar and what if anything they did as a consequence.

Posted

There's a lot of great women out there who you can come home to who will be happy to see you and want to be all over you and make you feel good and cook you nice meals and want to do things with you, and you'll want to do all those things to her as well.

 

 

Life is too short to waste it with a person you don't want to be with. So what you're married. Now you know why most marriages fail. People aren't really designed to be together for live. 10 years, 20 years maybe. 30 years is few and far between- you're at the 21 year mark and you've wasted at least 6 years as per your prior posts. Not seeing a reason to put off the big D any longer. Remember the older you get the less favorable your dating prospects will be.

Posted

I don't know how long you've been married, but it's not unusual for there to be a gap between what people think they should want ... vs. what people really want ... in relationships.

 

Sometimes the thing that makes us unsatisfied in a relationship might seem so minor, so petty, so pathetic ... that we're afraid to pay attention to that thing.

 

A partner might check all the official boxes ... smart, kind, good, so on ... and yet ... there are a whole host of unofficial boxes that we have that we are oblivious to ...

 

Another way to say this: sometimes our intuition is way ahead of our rational brain's ability to find words for what we're feeling.

 

I once dated a woman who was pretty, smart, kind, interesting ... similar values ... we had great sex ... and yet ... something was missing. I thought it was my own "maturity" that was missing.

 

We break up ... and I felt relief ... still didn't have words for why I felt as I did.

 

Long story short: she moves to a new city herself ... and she and I start talking about reconciling. Again this woman checked all my official boxes. We're even talking about marriage. So I go out to visit her during a summer (I was recently out of grad school) looking for a job and planning to lay the ground to relocate and move in with her.

 

One problem: I could not get my behind off the couch from watching tv when I was out visiting her. Oh sure, I put in for a few jobs. But I could not get into searching seriously for a job. Of course, I'm calling myself lazy for being so umotivated.

 

I end up not moving out there with her, and it was only later, much later, that I realized, OMG, as wonderful as this woman was, I really felt she was a friend and I just did not feel turned out by her. This woman is pretty ... and very fit ... and we had great sex. So she checked my "pretty" box ... but I didn't have that romantic chemistry that leads you to REALLY look forward to seeing someone.

 

Looking back, my inability to get off the couch and look for a job when visiting her--that was a huge sign ... that was my body and intuition having reached a different conclusion than my rational brain, which said this woman was a catch.

 

So here's what I'll share with you ... I have noticed that when there is this gap between what seems logical (what I say I should be doing) and what I'm really doing ... often it's because I'm dismissing some important point as petty ... but often what we label as petty (depending on how we are raised, etc.) isn't really petty.

 

There's nothing petty about sexual attraction to a partner. It's just that I was unaware of the importance of this.

 

So one way to get to an answer for you ... imagine you weren't going to be judged on what you say or think ... that you didn't care about what anyone else thought ... what embarrassing "petty" stuff do you dislike about the marriage? ... or dislike about your wife? Or ... flip it: what do you want from the marriage, no matter how petty you think it is, that you aren't getting now?

 

If you didn't care about what anyone else thought, what would you say is unsatisfying about your marriage? Often that question helps us get to what's going on beneath, beneath our checkboxes and our "shoulds." And quite shockingly often, what appears to be merely petty ... turns out not to be petty at all.

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Posted

If you are waiting for the time when others agree or tell you it's ok.....you are going to keep waiting. That time will not come.

Posted

 

At the core of this, why do I not want to be back in a connected relationship with my wife? Because that has been the answer I wanted at nearly every turn this past five years. I sought advice and counselling, but at the core I wanted someone to tell me its OK to give up. Why have I wanted that?

 

 

IMV, there are three possibilities:

 

* the problem lies with you.

Something in your emotional or psychological makeup prevents you from really opening up to someone, letting yourself become vulnerable and connecting on a deeper level. Your parents’ relationship modelling may have played a role, or something else that may emerge in counselling.

 

* the problem lies with her.

You tried, but she didn’t reciprocate, or she hurt you badly and you can’t trust her, or something in her emotional or psychological makeup keeps you at a distance and over time you’ve come to accept she’ll just never allow the kind of relationship you want. This may be something she could address in IC, but if she’s not acknowledging the problem, even that won’t help.

 

* the problem lies in the relationship.

You’ve established bad practices that have driven you apart over time, and you’ve both become lazy and built up resentments. Your and her fundamental ways of being are at odds with each other’s, and you’ve entrenched things where change feels too big a hill to climb and the rewards too small to justify the effort. It’s possible to recover in MC if you can get to the bottom of the resentments, from both sides.

 

...or, of course, a combination of any of the above.

 

What do you and your wife have in common, other than the kids?

What do you differ on?

What really matters to you, and to her?

If you won the lottery, and could picture yourself in 5 years time anywhere, doing anything, with anyone, what would that look like?

Posted

~5 years ago, you reached 35 and went - Is this all there is? Is this my life? Do I just free wheel and slide down the road to monotomy, mediocrity, ageing and eventually death...

You saw your "ageing" wife and your growing kids and went -

"Meh... This is NOT me, certainly not the me, I was before I got hijacked and railroaded into this marriage. NOT the me I want to be"

Who do you then blame?

The "no good wife" is a likely candidate.

She was the one who did all this to you, the one that stole your life and made it into something SHE wanted.

SHE used you, SHE abused you, SHE trapped you, and you hate her for it. BUT deep down you know she did none of these things it was YOU who was the willing participant in all this marriage "nonsense", YOU who didn't walk out 20 years ago, or 15 or 10 or 5...

YOU were the weak one, the passive aggressive one, the one who has sabotaged all the efforts to fix your marriage as you are too scared to make the "big" decision ie you either pick up the sword and actually fight for your family hard as that may be, or you just walk.

Deep down you know this is a safety vs the unknown issue and the unknown is too scary to contemplate, so you instead stay and sabotage., safe in your little passive aggressive shell.

You did all you could, only you didn't... did you?

Meanwhile your wife and kids are suffering.

 

Other people's stories will not help you here, they are not in your shoes, this is a decision you have to make for yourself.

  • Like 2
Posted

I went legally seperated from my wife for 18 month , and so many Legal cases were raised , Lawyers enjoying the rides with me , and we hated each other , fought to get the kids , fought each other legally with the best we have ....

 

I won in some cases , she won on others ...

 

and we started realizing one thing ....

 

we are both loosers, WTF we are doing ....

 

I dated during this period , she most probably did , and then we got the wake up call ....

 

 

i realized my mistakes , she did too .

 

I realized that those ladies I met are all worse than her in some aspect ( mentality wise ) ...

 

she realized that my impurities are barable .

 

and one day she called me , and my heart beated again at that moment , we are back since 6 month ....

 

Am I happy ?

 

-Yes

 

lesson :

 

"There is no Happy Marriage by coincidance , it takes continuous nurturing and attention to make it thrive "

 

 

 

What makes you happy ?

  • Author
Posted
...or, of course, a combination of any of the above.

 

What do you and your wife have in common, other than the kids?

What do you differ on?

What really matters to you, and to her?

If you won the lottery, and could picture yourself in 5 years time anywhere, doing anything, with anyone, what would that look like?

 

So I think your framing is useful, and it also seems reasonable to say the issue is probably a combination of all three. Of course, I am not seeking or expecting to change my wife in any meaningful way. And I have had a good chance to take a hard look at myself the past 5 years, perhaps more than any time before. Those of you that have had kids know how little time you really spend on introspection when you have small kids, and we spent over a decade with at least one child under 3.

 

I am certainly moody, and prone to avoidance. Whatever issues built over time in our relationship, some of my own feelings went unexpressed because of my tendencies. I think that fault lies squarely with me. And that has consequences in the problems of the relationship. Wounds get deeper, the hill gets higher, and the work of unwinding the misunderstands gets more difficult.

 

And your questions are good ones. What I will say about the first two is that the young immature version of me confused pleasing someone with loving someone. It's not to say those two don't overlap in a way, but I went about relationships and ultimately my marriage striving to be what I thought someone else wanted. Mostly because I really didn't have a clue what I wanted or even realized how important it was to identify. Feel free to psycho-analyze what that means about my upbringing, but suffice to say I was a perfect match for someone that was expressive and direct with their needs and want. Someone with a clear mission or problem. I was drawn to a crisis that made it simple to know how to help. And my wife was that person.

 

But in the last ten years as I have had the space to be alone and also surround myself with a more diverse set of personalities I have come to find a me that is mostly out of sych with my wife. I crave quiet and simplicity, she craves action and chaos. She is like a force of nature, or a freight train depending on your point of view. She is dynamic and constantly restless. It is difficult for me, friends, family, or the kids to do anything but be onboard, because the alternative means conflict. She is quick to fight, and quick to move on. I am reluctant to fight, and slow to recover.

 

And I think MC taught me that these are not insurmountable, but it is a shame we didn't do that counselling 5 years earlier. At least then we might have identified those things in each other and ourselves and worked on a real path to acknowledging how we could be understanding of those differences. Instead, until very recently, she has just assumed I was more or less the same as her, and I had taken it for granted that the level of conflict we had was just the way it is to make someone happy. All the while we tore some pretty big holes in our marriage.

 

And of course, what matters to both of us really is the kids. It's why we have had serious conversations about something so obviously crappy as being roommates. I think we believe we would do that to ourselves if it were best for the kids. But the feedback does convince me it is garbage for them. Beyond that, she feels a strong mission to make the world a better place and is more or less dedicated to advocacy and action. It is her vocation and her personal orientation. For me, I want to have my life simplified to a place where I can have quality time with the kids and truly be present. And I want some agency in my life, and to be at least heard.

 

Beyond that, in five years I want to have the space to be myself to and for my kids, and then share a pace and experience of life with someone that can take me for what I am. I will continue to run my business and perhaps even have the kids involved by then. I don't want to be swept along with someone else's irresistible force, and I would settle for being mostly alone over that sense that I'm always trying to shout across a room at a loud party.

 

And I have mostly given up hope in her even really seeing me that way. The outcome of MC was a sense on her part that I was having a midlife crisis, or that I was fabricating that version of myself in order to create an excuse for time away from responsibilities. I think she understands that she doesn't understand me at this point, but not much more than that. Besides, I honestly don't want her to change. It makes her good for the kids and for so many people she encourages with her constant energy.

  • Author
Posted
~5 years ago, you reached 35 and went - Is this all there is? Is this my life? Do I just free wheel and slide down the road to monotomy, mediocrity, ageing and eventually death...

You saw your "ageing" wife and your growing kids and went -

"Meh... This is NOT me, certainly not the me, I was before I got hijacked and railroaded into this marriage. NOT the me I want to be"

Who do you then blame?

The "no good wife" is a likely candidate.

She was the one who did all this to you, the one that stole your life and made it into something SHE wanted.

SHE used you, SHE abused you, SHE trapped you, and you hate her for it. BUT deep down you know she did none of these things it was YOU who was the willing participant in all this marriage "nonsense", YOU who didn't walk out 20 years ago, or 15 or 10 or 5...

YOU were the weak one, the passive aggressive one, the one who has sabotaged all the efforts to fix your marriage as you are too scared to make the "big" decision ie you either pick up the sword and actually fight for your family hard as that may be, or you just walk.

Deep down you know this is a safety vs the unknown issue and the unknown is too scary to contemplate, so you instead stay and sabotage., safe in your little passive aggressive shell.

You did all you could, only you didn't... did you?

Meanwhile your wife and kids are suffering.

 

Other people's stories will not help you here, they are not in your shoes, this is a decision you have to make for yourself.

 

 

Elain567, I genuinely think you have some good experiences to relate that would be helpful, but this is mostly just a one-sided judgment without any content. And other people's stories are actually helpful. The conversations where someone has been willing to share real experiences and give some self-examination of their own have been helpful out here. In part, I can't really use your judgment because you're not really sharing any perspective, just cherry-picking a narrative that crams me into a stereotype. I mean, you even got a few parts roughly right, but enough wrong as to render it sort of pointless to dig into.

Posted

Well, my parents have been married for 35 years now. Happily by all accounts.

 

When I ask my mom how have they managed to stay together so long, she tells me: "because we both want to." I mean, sometimes it's really that simple. And I think it's really simple for you too - you don't want to be with her anymore. There can be a million rational and emotional reasons for it, but it really comes down to that fact.

 

And it is my personal belief, I know everyone differs, that not wanting to be with someone is a good enough reason to not be with them anymore ie. get a divorce.

  • Author
Posted

Am I happy ?

 

-Yes

 

lesson :

 

"There is no Happy Marriage by coincidance , it takes continuous nurturing and attention to make it thrive "

 

What makes you happy ?

 

 

So I'm curious if you don't mind elaborating. What did you feel for your wife when you decided to separate? What had you to done to work on your differences? Do you have kids? What were you expecting to accomplish in separating?

 

And what was different for you when your wife re-connected with you? What had you discovered or perhaps re-discovered as far as feelings?

 

And as for my happiness, it is about being connected to people I love. I want a small circle of people that I can put my energy into, and be able to experience as much of life as possible with them. And I need to have at least one person that wants to understand me as much as I do them. I don't expect that to be my kids. They get that from me without any expectation they will do the same. I can stand to be mostly alone, but need to have someone with whom to experience this world.

Posted

Hi Owen I think your problem is not with your marriage or your wife. It resides fully with you. You may be afraid of growing old or as Elaine pointed out you are worried about living a life of mediocrity or it may be something else. The fact is that if you divorce your wife and then marry someone else, you will end up in the same boat as the one where you are currently. The fact is that our happiness and satisfaction with our lives are dependent entirely on ourselves. It comes from within us. Nothing external is going to magically appear and wave your dissatisfaction with life away for you. You buy a new car and for a while you are thrilled. Your new car has the latest gadgets and a super engine and is so good to look at. But then you get used to driving it around and the self same things that gave immense pleasure in the beginning are something you now take for granted and if one of those things fail or under perform, you lose your cool. As the car gets older various mechanisms and parts start giving way. You lose interest in it and start eyeing the latest model that your friend Jim just purchased.

 

Fact is you are treating your wife like that car. Yes she has become familiar and you know all her faults and flaws but you forget that she, too, knows all of yours. Also, you have grown older along with her and have equally lost your zing. For that matter she may be fantasizing about a new model herself just as you are. However, she is realistic and knows that what is new today will be old the day after tomorrow and so she keeps her counsel to herself. She stays content with the old and ageing you while you are chafing at the bit wanting to replace her as soon as you can. In essence you are trying to run away from yourself Phoenician was absolutely correct. He and his wife realized that because of their history together they were not likely to get a satisfactory upgrade if they dumped each other. Your fate will be the same. Just think it over. Best wishes.

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