Am I oversensitive? Or my wife too harsh? (sorry for length, I am a details guy)

[Downtown]

BM103, I agree with MidwestUSA that you're describing several red flags for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). The behaviors you describe -- i.e., verbal abuse, icy sulking, temper tantrums, inability to trust you, inability to regulate her own emotions, often believing herself to be "The Victim," and rapid flips between Jekyll (loving you) and Hyde (devaluing you) -- are classic warning signs for BPD.

 

Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has lifetime BPD (i.e., the full-blown disorder that develops in early childhood). One reason is that you say her behavior problems became strong only a few months ago, right after the birth of your son. Another reason is that only a professional can determine whether her symptoms are so strong and persistent as to constitute a full-blown lifetime disorder.

 

BPD traits are primitive ego defenses that we all have to ensure our survival, particularly during childhood. They become a problem only when they are so strong that they undermine our efforts to sustain close LTRs with other adults. How serious the problem is depends not only on how strong our BPD traits are but also on whether they are persistent, i.e., constitute a full lifetime problem.

 

Temporary BPD flareups. Most occurrences of strong BPD traits you see in other people are not caused by lifetime BPD. Instead, they are only temporary flareups of the normal BPD traits we all have. These flareups nearly always are caused by drug abuse or, more often, by a hormone change -- e.g., puberty, pregnancy, postpartum, severe PMS, or perimenopause (or any other life event starting with the letter "P," LOL). So, yes, you seem to be describing a temporary flareup of normal BPD traits arising from a postpartum hormone change -- as you have suspected.

 

Persistent BPD traits. If serious hormone and drug problems can be ruled out, the remaining common cause of strong BPD traits is a stunted emotional development, i.e., something occurring before age five that caused emotional development to freeze at the level of a young child. This is a far more serious problem because it is results in BPD traits that are permanent unless the pwBPD undergoes years of intensive therapy to acquire the emotional skills that the rest of us learned in childhood.

 

The BPDer needs to learn, for example, how to do self soothing, how to regulate all of her emotions, how to avoid black-white thinking by tolerating strong mixed feelings, how to trust, how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as self-evident "facts," and how to stay aware of the present instead of escaping through daydreams into the past and future. Absent those skills, she must continue to rely on the primitive ego defenses used by young children: projection, denial, temper tantrums, magical thinking, and black-white thinking.

 

I mention this possibility for two reasons. One is that you hint at her having anger issues before giving birth when noting that she "admits she has a short temper." The second reason is your observation that her father "wasn’t there through her upbringing."

 

That is concerning because abandonment by a parent in early childhood is believed to be one of the contributors to lifetime BPD. This is why a great abandonment fear is one of the hallmarks of lifetime BPD.

 

Yet, if that were the case for your W, you would have been seeing repeated jealous accusations and attempts to isolate you away from friends and family throughout your marriage. Significantly, you don't mention any instances of her exhibiting a strong abandonment fear. [EDIT: Oops, I just read your 3/28/17 post where you state her experiences have given her "what she describes as trust issues and feelings of abandonment."]

 

Finally, I caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (usually at a low level if the person is healthy).

 

At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum).

 

Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. If you're interested, you may want to take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs.

Edited October 7, 2018 by Downtown

[BMI03]

Thank you for the detailed and thoughtful answers. I will take the time to go through them in detail and read up on the references you provided. For now just a quick update on the day.

 

At about 2pm she came downstairs to join me and the kids. She didn’t say much. Either did I. I was quiet and not mad. Just a bit indifferent I guess. Tried. I made a few one sentence comments about nothing specific. After about 20 min she was sitting on the couch and leaned over to snuggle with me. The kids were out of the room and she told me she was sorry. Said I was right and that she puts so much pressure on herself to please everyone when the only person that makes her feel she needs to do so is herself. She said she thinks she was overwhelmed with all that needed to get done and then thinking about Halloween costumes as well just put her over the edge. I told her that makes sense and is understandable but I struggle to understand how that leads to an argument vs a discussion. She said she has all these plans in her head but doesn’t share them.

 

She said let’s go to the museums if I still wanted to and then we could stop and get groceries for thanksgivong dinner. I told her I thought about what to have like she asked and wanted to order pizza. She had some tears roll down her face and told me that she had emailed my mother a couple days ago to get her details on thanksgiving dinner so that she could do it like I grew up with, that she wanted to do that for me. I told her all I wanted was an enjoyable thanksgiving weekend with my family (her and the kids) and I’d be happy. She cried a little. She said she’s sorry again. I told her that I understood. I said this is the minefield I am talking about. That I am trying my best to figure out how to navigate conversation with her when she is like this, but I feel I am failing at that and really struggling. She said she understood.

 

After that it was a good day. She knows I am still a bit reserved today. That happens after a day like that. I am cautious and fearful of making a misstep and so I am quiet and don’t volunteer many interactions unprompted.

 

Anyway, headed to bed now after a couple of movies. Will see how it goes.

 

Night all.

[BMI03]

So we had a good night. Snuggled in bed all night, again in the morning, and this morning she was super pleasant. I took baby downstairs and had breakfast with my daughter. She remained upstairs, and slept a while longer until early afternoon. When she got up, she was in a great mood. We had calls for other family, watched tv, etc. was good. She even said that I looked tense and not to be. That we were good. That she knew it takes a bit to get settled from, but that we are good.

 

Then at 4:15, when I was mentally getting ready to drive my daughter to her mother’s place, she suggested food. I said yes. She asked if I wanted reheated pizza. I, likely nervously said “umm, ya?”. She picked up on nervousness and said “we have time right. Well leave in about an hour?”. The context here is that I am always ahead of time. She is always late. This is a side issue, but the middle is likely the best answer. That said, she knows I aim to leave an hour ahead of the target drop off time, even if it can physically be done in 45 min. When she said “...an hour?” I answered “An hour? I was thinking 15 min.”. Then “Maybe 30 and we do it in 45?”.

 

She got silent and turned her back to me. I tried to keep conversation flowing with “I’ll have one of each type of pizza, thank you very much” as she was opening the boxes. I walked up to her and touched her back and asked if she was ok. She said yes. She had tears wellin. Up. I asked if she was sure. She said she didn’t like the way I answered her. I told her that if there was surprise in my voice, it was because I was surprised she said “an hour” until leaving...that she knows we normally leave an hour before, or at least that we couldn’t wait that long. She said fine. So we then sat in silence while my daughter ate. When she goes to get her stuff I tell my wife “I’m sorry I offended you with what I said.”. She doesn’t say much. She decided that she and my son were not going to come for the drive and I should go alone. While sitting waiting for my daughter I say “it seems like we just get on the right path again and it derails.”. A few tears run down her cheeks.

 

I go drop my daughter off alone. I’m parked down the street from the house now. About to go in with no idea what mood she is in. I am fearful, sad, stressed, angry, frustrated, tired. I am not yet dismissive or unphased...that is when I will worry the most.

[BMI03]

Just throwing this out there, but I'll compare to my sitch again.

 

Had my H said 'don't touch me' and gave tension as the reason, I've learned that what he really wants is quiet (stop taking about the plans, etc.) but with cuddling and reassurance once we're in bed. It's part of the push/pull dynamic of BPD (borderline personality disorder), and he reverts to a childlike state of neediness. He'd have been irate had I left the bed.

 

I'm not diagnosing your wife, but everyone has some characteristics of certain personality disorders. Reading their signals is a trying task, and it's often damned if you do, damned if you don't. Trying to figure it out will make you question your own sanity. Soon you'll be the one feeling like you need mental help.

 

Familiar?

 

That’s very insightful information. Thank you for sharing so much. I recognize her behaviors in a lot of what you say.

[BMI03]

BM103, I agree with MidwestUSA that you're describing several red flags for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). The behaviors you describe -- i.e., verbal abuse, icy sulking, temper tantrums, inability to trust you, inability to regulate her own emotions, often believing herself to be "The Victim," and rapid flips between Jekyll (loving you) and Hyde (devaluing you) -- are classic warning signs for BPD.

 

Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has lifetime BPD (i.e., the full-blown disorder that develops in early childhood). One reason is that you say her behavior problems became strong only a few months ago, right after the birth of your son. Another reason is that only a professional can determine whether her symptoms are so strong and persistent as to constitute a full-blown lifetime disorder.

 

BPD traits are primitive ego defenses that we all have to ensure our survival, particularly during childhood. They become a problem only when they are so strong that they undermine our efforts to sustain close LTRs with other adults. How serious the problem is depends not only on how strong our BPD traits are but also on whether they are persistent, i.e., constitute a full lifetime problem.

 

Temporary BPD flareups. Most occurrences of strong BPD traits you see in other people are not caused by lifetime BPD. Instead, they are only temporary flareups of the normal BPD traits we all have. These flareups nearly always are caused by drug abuse or, more often, by a hormone change -- e.g., puberty, pregnancy, postpartum, severe PMS, or perimenopause (or any other life event starting with the letter "P," LOL). So, yes, you seem to be describing a temporary flareup of normal BPD traits arising from a postpartum hormone change -- as you have suspected.

 

Persistent BPD traits. If serious hormone and drug problems can be ruled out, the remaining common cause of strong BPD traits is a stunted emotional development, i.e., something occurring before age five that caused emotional development to freeze at the level of a young child. This is a far more serious problem because it is results in BPD traits that are permanent unless the pwBPD undergoes years of intensive therapy to acquire the emotional skills that the rest of us learned in childhood.

 

The BPDer needs to learn, for example, how to do self soothing, how to regulate all of her emotions, how to avoid black-white thinking by tolerating strong mixed feelings, how to trust, how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as self-evident "facts," and how to stay aware of the present instead of escaping through daydreams into the past and future. Absent those skills, she must continue to rely on the primitive ego defenses used by young children: projection, denial, temper tantrums, magical thinking, and black-white thinking.

 

I mention this possibility for two reasons. One is that you hint at her having anger issues before giving birth when noting that she "admits she has a short temper." The second reason is your observation that her father "wasn’t there through her upbringing."

 

That is concerning because abandonment by a parent in early childhood is believed to be one of the contributors to lifetime BPD. This is why a great abandonment fear is one of the hallmarks of lifetime BPD.

 

Yet, if that were the case for your W, you would have been seeing repeated jealous accusations and attempts to isolate you away from friends and family throughout your marriage. Significantly, you don't mention any instances of her exhibiting a strong abandonment fear. [EDIT: Oops, I just read your 3/28/17 post where you state her experiences have given her "what she describes as trust issues and feelings of abandonment."]

 

Finally, I caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (usually at a low level if the person is healthy).

 

At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum).

 

Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. If you're interested, you may want to take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs.

 

This is incredibly good reference material. Lots of good content for me to think about.

 

Her short temper is certainly something that existed prior to the baby. But like I said, it’s a two wave approach that she’s had all her life so far as I understand.

 

I am going to read through this more line by line and think about how it best applies. Thank you so much for this valuable resource. The time you took is humbling. Thanks so much.

[MidwestUSA]

Ugh, the whole reheated pizza thing (which is what I'm having tonight, btw), is just, ugh, so easily resolved. How long does it take to heat it up, eat it and go?

 

She knows your habits, but took offense to your tone?

 

So, what's she do? She punishes you by staying home. Now you're the bad guy again, in that black and white thinking.

 

I'm so sorry, this must be hell for you.

 

Update us on what happened when you went back into the house. It should give us some good clues.

Edited October 9, 2018 by MidwestUSA

[BMI03]

Ugh, the whole reheated pizza thing (which is what I'm having tonight, btw), is just, ugh, so easily resolved. How long does it take to heat it up, eat it and go?

 

She knows your habits, but took offense to your tone?

 

So, what's she do? She punishes you by staying home. Now you're the bad guy again, in that black and white thinking.

 

I'm so sorry, this must be hell for you.

 

Update us on what happened when you went back into the house. It should give us some good clues.

 

Well, it was quiet and lots of sitting around with little more interaction than one-sentence comments. I tried to keep my comments low complexity and non-controversial best I could. After about an hour she asked if I wanted to try our Halloween costumes on for size. We did and they were quite funny and got us laughing. She said “I guess we should try Halloween costumes on any time we are mad at each other.”. We laughed, then hugged, then left it at that.

 

To be honest, on this one I am not even 100% sure what it was I said that triggered it. If I asked her to explain exactly what I did wrong, I’m not sure she could articulate it. Tone? Best was that I may have said “an hour?” In a surprised tone. If so, ya, I was surprised. She knows whe we aim to leave, so suggesting a time 45 min past that would be surprising to me. That doesn’t mean that it’s ripe conditions to be fighting and hurt. Anyway, issue of the moment seems resolved. Obviously the overarching issue is not.

 

Let’s see what tomorrow brings.

 

Thanks all for your help and insight on this. I know I don’t type brief entries so I appreciate your willingness to read

[MidwestUSA]

Your level of detail is fine, it helps. I'm a quick reader.

 

That's funny about the costumes. You may have just stumbled on a way to defuse situations. If you recall, I mentioned it works for me. Humor. Altho I'll admit, in the moment, it's often hard to come up with something.

 

I'm sure you're right about her not being able to articulate the exact problem with what should have been no big deal. Even tho she knows your timeframes, she had it in her head that she had an hour. I don't think the tone of your reply would have mattered one bit. On some level, she has to know she was wrong. Unless there's something you're not telling us, like that you're a real ogre or something. . Some people have a huge problem admitting they were wrong.

 

I wonder if in her past, her overreacting to things and sulking was either accepted (no one called her on it), or got her some kind of reward.

 

I'm still amazed that she's a physician. That tells me she's more than capable of critical thinking and staying cool under pressure. I can't recall, is she currently working?

[PRW]

This one is pretty easy. Nothing unusual about her. You just need a new perspective.

 

Am I oversensitive?

Yes,...you have an entitled "poor me" attitude, and have forgotten what a husband's role is.

 

Or my wife too harsh?

No, she's a normal sounding woman to me.

 

Stage 1 isn’t yelling or screaming or anything violent or aggressive in the obvious sense. Often it’s her being mad, unsure why, and misdirecting that anger at me.

Stage 2 seems to be missing in the description

 

I may be wrong, or perhaps this is subjective, but I see four categories of things that make her mad which I could take crap from her about:

1. Something completely separate from me

2. Something related to me, but outside my control

3. Something I have done wrong, or which hurt her, but without any poor intention

4. Something I did that was purposefully mean

Fine

 

In my opinion, I don’t deserve to take hell for

You should take hell for all of it because that is your job as a husband. Did you ever see someone throw a tantrum on a bed, they kick and pound on the mattress and the pillow? Did the mattress and the pillow do anything wrong? No, but they are doing their job, that is part of what they are there for. When the rage ends, what are they hugging and snuggling with,...the same pillow and mattress. Did the mattress and pillow do something to get the hugs,...not really, they are just doing their job.

 

As the husband, YOU,...and that mattress and pillow.

 

Imagine two people having an argument and it goes like this:

 

Woman:This is just like two years ago when you did <blah> <blah> <blah>

 

Man: Why do you keep bringing up the past!?! What's wrong with you? I thought we put that behind us? I apologized a dozen times since then!!

 

Woman: You never listen to me, you just never listen to anything I say. You just don't get it!!

 

Man: Stands there stupefied and can't understand how is it that he is getting accused of not listening

 

Well she it right the guy doesn't listen. Women communicate emotionally, they communicate their feelings through their words. What she was telling him in my above example is that the way the guy made her FEEL today is the same way he made her FEEL two years ago. She is communicating a FEELING,...it has nothing to do with the event itself that was two years ago, the event was just an emotional example for the words she didn't know how to say. Because the guy doesn't understand that this is the message,...he, hence, is not listening to her.

 

Anyway it is your job as the husband to be her Rock, her Solid Ground, her Pillow & Mattress. You are the refuge that she can just "let it out" on and then be a comfort for her when the emotion runs out in the aftermath.

[PRW]

I wonder if in her past, her overreacting to things and sulking was either accepted (no one called her on it), or got her some kind of reward.

 

I'm still amazed that she's a physician. That tells me she's more than capable of critical thinking and staying cool under pressure. I can't recall, is she currently working?

 

 

Well you're probably right there, and there is a certain amount of culture there too. However, can't control someone's past, but I have seen in these things that the guy, trying to think logically, trying to "solve" the supposed problem, really just ends up "picking the scab". This stokes the fire of the rage in her. It would be better to sooth the scab rather than pick at it.

[BMI03]

Well you're probably right there, and there is a certain amount of culture there too. However, can't control someone's past, but I have seen in these things that the guy, trying to think logically, trying to "solve" the supposed problem, really just ends up "picking the scab". This stokes the fire of the rage in her. It would be better to sooth the scab rather than pick at it.

 

Thanks for the perspective. I’m not sure I subscribe to the belief that it is the mans job to indiscriminately take heat for anything and everything, but I also have to concede that your comment about thinking logically and trying to ‘solve’ the problem is rarely met with any significant lasting progress, and usually only fuels things.

 

Curious though...I sense a hint of experience with this in your voice, so is your feelings about this being the husbands job based on a true belief that this is what it is meant to be? Or a conforming to the unfortunate reality you see taking place despite best efforts and good will to do better? I ask because I don’t think I am quite there yet in admitting that this is just the reality of things.

[PRW]

I sense a hint of experience with this in your voice, so is your feelings about this being the husbands job based on a true belief that this is what it is meant to be?

 

 

Some of it is experience, but I've put in a lot of time and thought into studying and analyzing the biological/psychological differences between male and female, what their inherent needs are and how those needs are met.

[BMI03]

Some of it is experience, but I've put in a lot of time and thought into studying and analyzing the biological/psychological differences between male and female, what their inherent needs are and how those needs are met.

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

So every now and then I try a different approach, not necessarily intentionally. After a few cases in a row of her giving me hell over something I feel is outside my field of influence, I naturally start to distance myself. I don't donate insight, advice, etc. If she asks for it, I find myself heavily caveating my comments, etc. Basically I am shutting off. It's not an intended strategy, but rather it's how my mind protects itself from the harassment, but simply limiting the situations it involves me in through distancing.

 

The result is not much better. I get tears from her for my being distant. I openly shared that I think I am growing tired of the criticism and so must be gradually disengaging. That led to silence I thought was a threat to our marriage even. And, when I tried to find the middle ground of contributing, but giving cravats (ie asked how she should respond to a email from a customer service inquiry she didn't like I said "Here's what I would do. I am not saying this is the right way and I know you and I have different approaches, so not saying your way is wrong either, but I would...". That led to a day long silence between us because she thinks I should be able to say things to her openly without having to think so hard about how to talk to her. I told her I did it because of the hell I get when she doesn't like my answer.

 

I feel beat either way.

[BaileyB]

Research on attachment theory in children is interesting, and somewhat relevant here. The children were selected based on three groups - read and see if you know which group has the worst outcomes.

 

The first group, parents and consistently warm, loving, and nurturing.

 

Second group, parents neglect their children, not responding when the child needs the parent, when they want their attention, when they are sad or in pain...

 

Third group, parents are inconsistent. Sometimes they respond with loving kindness, but sometimes they don't respond or they respond harshly to their children.

 

Who do you think has the most difficult forming healthy attachments, coping with life stress, managing their emotions, etc...

 

You guessed it - the third group, with the inconsistent parents. These children never know what to expect and it creates a distrust and a state of dysregulation that affects them in every aspect of their life.

 

Your wife may well be having difficulty with post partum depression, and if that is the case then I hope she gets the help she needs. But, what you are feeling is not "wrong." It is concerning if you feel like you are withdrawing and shutting down... It means, it's time for counselling - for you, or for both of you. I hope you find a way to make it better, because this is no way to live your life.

Edited October 10, 2018 by BaileyB

[BaileyB]

 

No, she's a normal sounding woman to me.

 

You should take hell for all of it because that is your job as a husband. Did you ever see someone throw a tantrum on a bed, they kick and pound on the mattress and the pillow? Did the mattress and the pillow do anything wrong? No, but they are doing their job, that is part of what they are there for. When the rage ends, what are they hugging and snuggling with,...the same pillow and mattress. Did the mattress and pillow do something to get the hugs,...not really, they are just doing their job.

 

As the husband, YOU,...and that mattress and pillow.

 

Anyway it is your job as the husband to be her Rock, her Solid Ground, her Pillow & Mattress. You are the refuge that she can just "let it out" on and then be a comfort for her when the emotion runs out in the aftermath.

 

Is this for real? As a woman, I find this somewhat insulting.

 

If I treated my partner like the pillow and mattress, such that I would use and abuse him as I let my feelings out - Well, I think I would find myself single. There is no way that he would tolerate that and I would never expect that.

What I do expect is a patient, willing partner partner who is available to listen to my feelings and give me a hug when needed. As for the ability to manage my emotions and frustrations in a mature and respectful way - well, that responsibility is on me.

[PRW]

Thanks for the reply.

So every now and then I try a different approach, not necessarily intentionally. After a few cases in a row of her giving me hell over something I feel is outside my field of influence, I naturally start to distance myself. I don't donate insight, advice, etc. If she asks for it, I find myself heavily caveating my comments, etc. Basically I am shutting off. It's not an intended strategy, but rather it's how my mind protects itself from the harassment, but simply limiting the situations it involves me in through distancing.

 

When she starts to talk about things, she needs to feel you are paying attention, but without offering "fix-it" advice. So there may be a lot of nodding, a lot of "yea's", and a lot of "Uh-huh's". A lot of her words may be more of explaining how she feels about it rather than the details or the "fix-it" steps. For you, ...use it as a way to understand how she feels and why, with less focus on the details of the problem. You may find it very educational.

[PRW]

There is no way that he would tolerate that and I would never expect that.

 

It is already past that point. The situation already is where it is, it would be nice if it was somewhere else we would like it to be, but it is not.

 

What I do expect is a patient, willing partner partner who is available to listen to my feelings and give me a hug when needed.

Which is exactly where I am trying to get him to arrive at.

 

As for the ability to manage my emotions and frustrations in a mature and respectful way - well, that responsibility is on me.

That is exactly where she will end up when things get back in balance. You said, "I do expect is a patient, willing partner who is available to listen to my feelings and give me a hug when needed". She wants the same thing but does not see herself as getting that. That is her perspective, right or wrong, that is her perspective. It is her perspective (not mine or yours) that dictates her behavor. If her man can become the one who, in her eyes, is the patient, willing partner who is available to listen to her feelings and give her a hug when needed,...then her behavor will follow suit.

 

Does that mean he may have to take a few beatings, maybe undeserved beatings, to reach the goal? Probably.

 

A "Tit-for-Tat" attitude, a punishing attitude, a give them what they deserve attitude,...will only undermine things further.

[BaileyB]

 

Which is exactly where I am trying to get him to arrive at.

 

Does that mean he may have to take a few beatings, maybe undeserved beatings, to reach the goal? Probably.

 

Having read his last post related to their Thanksgiving discussion, it seems to me that he is already well on his way... OP did a lovely job of listening to her and validating her feelings, expressing some of his feelings, and reaching a compromise that was acceptable to both partners. I'm not sure that he could have done anything more.

 

I don't disagree with many of the things you are saying. I'm just saying, I don't agree that a man should feel that he has to take some beatings from his wife to reach their goal of a happy, healthy marriage. I would say that if this is happening, there is a lot of room for growth related to emotional regulation, conflict resolution, and communication.

Edited October 10, 2018 by BaileyB

[PRW]

Having read his last post related to their Thanksgiving discussion, it seems to me that he is already well on his way... OP did a lovely job of listening to her and validating her feelings, expressing some of his feelings, and reaching a compromise that was acceptable to both partners. I'm not sure that he could have done anything more.

 

I had to go back a read that one. He did "ok", it didn't turn into an explosion. But I think he did too much analyzing in his head and was still "picking the scab" a little too much. When she is talking just let her talk, when she wants to stop talking for a while just let her stop and don't try to force her to talk more. The happier she gets and the more comfortable she gets, the more she will talk naturally without "nudging".

 

I think it is annoying to a woman to have a guy that keeps expecting her to make the decisions (Do you want to...? Would you rather that...? Should we just...?), particularly when she is already feeling irritable. The guy should just make the plans and then tell her what they will do. If she objects, she will say so,...then adjust if needed and roll with it. If she doesn't object, great,...so just follow through. No need to make drama out of what you will do tomorrow.

 

If you haven't picked up on it, I believe a lot of a woman's bad behavor is the result of their man's bad behavor (women are responders or reactionaries by nature). So you fix the man's bad behavor and the woman's behavor will fall into proper place.

[BaileyB]

If you haven't picked up on it, I believe a lot of a woman's bad behavor is the result of their man's bad behavor (women are responders or reactionaries by nature). So you fix the man's bad behavor and the woman's behavor will fall into proper place.

 

That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to that.

 

I will just say, I completely disagree. You talk about women from a man's perspective and let me just say, I find these comments to be rather condescending and insulting. To say that a man should make all the decisions and tell the woman what they will do... Or that a woman's behavior will "fall into proper place" when a man changes his behavior... To me, this is a rather old fashioned view of roles in relationships and I don't quite know what to say...

 

OP, best wishes to you. I hope that your wife knows how lucky she is to have such a caring and devoted husband.

Edited October 10, 2018 by BaileyB

[PRW]

this is a rather old fashioned view of roles in relationships

 

 

"Old" doesn't mean wrong.

"New" doesn't mean right.

 

 

Often the opposite is true.

Society is getting "newer" everyday, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me it is getting "better".

[BettyDraper]

"Old" doesn't mean wrong.

"New" doesn't mean right.

 

 

Often the opposite is true.

Society is getting "newer" everyday, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me it is getting "better".

 

I agree with your viewpoints to some extent because my husband and I have some very traditional elements in our marriage.

However, some men do not have the best intentions when they are the head of their households. Being submissive is a gift of trust meant only for good husbands.

 

Society is going to hell in a handbasket.

[Downtown]

I feel beat either way.

BMI, if your W exhibits strong BPD symptoms -- as we discussed 3 days ago -- you will find yourself damned "if you DO" and damned "if you DON'T." This no-win predicament is due to the position of a BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum.

 

This means you often find yourselves in a lose/lose situation because, as you back away from one fear to avoid triggering it, you will start triggering the fear at the other end of that same spectrum.

 

Your predicament is that the solution to calming her abandonment fear (drawing close and being intimate) is the very action that triggers her engulfment fear. Likewise, the solution to calming her engulfment fear (moving back away to give her breathing space) is the very action that triggers her abandonment fear.

 

Hence, as you move close to comfort her and assure her of your love, you eventually will start triggering her engulfment fear, making her feel like she's being suffocated and controlled by you. She will be particularly resentful of your efforts to provide helpful suggestions.

 

Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you will find that you've started triggering her abandonment fear. As you say, "I naturally start to distance myself.... but the result is not much better. I get tears from her for my being distant."

 

In my 15 years of experience with my BPD exW, I found that there is no midpoints solution (between "too close" and "too far away") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering those two fears. Until a BPDer learns how to better regulate her own emotions and tame her two fears, that Goldilocks position will not exist. This is why a relationship with an untreated BPDer typically is characterized by a repeating cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back.

 

Indeed, even if you are sitting perfectly still and not saying a word, a BPDer who is experiencing hurtful feelings will project those feelings onto YOU. Her subconscious does this to protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality -- and to externalize the pain, getting it outside her body. Because that projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, she will consciously be convinced that the painful feeling or hurtful thought is coming from YOU.

 

Hence, if you are married to an untreated BPDer -- or, alternatively, to a W who is suffering BPD symptom flareups due to PPD -- you will often find yourself hurting her. You will find yourself triggering her engulfment fear as you draw near, triggering her abandonment fear as you draw back, and triggering her anger even when you are sitting still in a room saying absolutely nothing.

[PRW]

However, some men do not have the best intentions when they are the head of their households.

True. But a guys bad actions don't make the principles wrong, it just means the guy is wrong.

 

 

Society is going to hell in a handbasket.

Yea, and I don't expect it to turn around. The world is headed for some really bad stuff. I just hope I'm dead before it happens. Yea, a little selfish I guess, but it's not like I can do anything about it.

[PRW]

Thinking back on it. I can see how my original message could be taken to say that the OP should be a push-over, a door mat, and just let her walk all over him. That is not my intention. But I believe he needs to be somewhat impervious to the rage of her "fits" for the time being to be able to get to the bottom of what is bothering her.

 

 

Now once past the problems, then yes, the husband, without being a push-over, doormat, etc., is supposed to be the wife's refuge. He should be the "safe place" that she can come to with what's bothering her without her being berated of judged for it. In fact I believe the husband failing to be these things for her can cause the problems that are being seen.

 

 

Anyway, I guess it just shows that things can be complicated to figure out sometimes.