Did it over the Phone

[johan]

Hi, it's me whining again. Guess we've hit a rough spot.

 

My stomach hurts. I love her so much. I would kill for her. The thing that must be killed is inside her and I can't get to it.

 

I got really pissed and dumped her over the phone. We got into an argument about us, and why couldn't we move forward together. If she wants a future with me, why can't she be brave and do it. She says she loves me, but "things" I do, normal everyday things, indicate the darkness in my heart. She said she can't marry me because she knows that I would leave her "in the woods to be eaten by wolves."

 

That statement almost made me cry. How do I argue with that? How can I speak more clearly and loudly than the three and a half years I've put into this relationship? The loyalty I've showed her. The time I've spent trying to be right next to her, when her fear kept us apart. The help I've given her, even when she didn't ask. The patience with her obsessions. The daily expression of love, even when we were arguing. Even when she wouldn't say it herself.

 

I have to be trusted and admired. I have to be wanted and loved. I have to be with someone who wants to be with me. I have to be with someone who isn't all fear all the time.

 

I just want to cry now, because I was so mean to her on the phone. I told her to please put all the things she has of mine out on her porch. I tore my own heart out with my own anger and frustration. She is so good and sweet, and I'm turning her out into the world for someone else to succeed where I failed. I validated every bad thing she thought about me. She's in the woods and I know there are plenty of wolves around. They knock on her door just to meet her.

[JS17]

HUG

Sorry Johan, you put a lot into this relationship. Sorry that you're hurting.

[Art_Critic]

You sound sad .. I'm not gonna say the normal bs about keeping your chin up and crap like that ..

 

 

I'm gonna just say I'm sorry and I hope you feel better

[suegail]

I don't know exactly what you said to her and if there is reason on your part for sincere regret, but judging from what you've described of the conversation I don't see your reaction as one of hostility. I think you just had a moment of intense frustration and you kind of blew your cork. Sometimes you have to draw a line and I think that's what you've done. You've shown her that you have tried as hard as you can to prove to her how much you care and will be there, but you've now hit your limit. Emotionally you can't take much more and maybe this will help her see that. I would just allow her to think this over. I really would.

[Outcast]

This is what - the fifth breakup? Seventh? Tenth? And you on your bungee cord will sproing right back to her again.

 

The hardest LS situations to observe are the ones like this - where one person keeps returning to a moribund relationship trying to flog it back to life.

 

At some point, most of us end up in situations which are actually hopeless. And at some point, we need to acknowledge that we are powerless to change those situations, close the door, and walk away.

[johan]

JS17: Thanks.

 

Art_Critic: Thanks.

 

Suegail: You're right.

 

Outkast: We haven't really broken up before. I've felt like we did several times, but neither of us ever really wanted to. I probably stuck it out too long, but I kept getting my hopes up. I'm bummed out, but I don't feel real hurt or angry. Just disappointed.

 

I can't imagine being this patient with someone else. Maybe I learned something.

 

I appreciate everyone's responses.

[Thinkalot]

Hi, it's me whining again. Guess we've hit a rough spot.

 

 

I have to be trusted and admired. I have to be wanted and loved. I have to be with someone who wants to be with me. I have to be with someone who isn't all fear all the time.

 

.

 

Yes, that is exactly what you deserve.

That she would say there is "darkness in your heart" and that you'd leave her out inthe cold, is very hurtful and very unfair given the energy, love and committment you have given to her and this relationship. If she is saying that now, you are right to leave and admit this wont work. You've given enough for long enough in my opinion. Unless she can make changes, this will not go further.

 

That you snapped and lost it on the phone is understandable. You are human, not a robot, who is always able to act in the most gracious manner no matter what pressures are placed on you.

 

I am so so sorry you are hurting and that it has come to this.

I think you deserve to be happy, and have someone who really wants you.

 

The hard part is, that because you love her, you keep seeing the good in her. So that even when shehas pushed it and said hurtful things and wont commit, you still turn around and see the sweetness and goodness in her, and then feel guilty yourself.

Love does that, and thats OK. But its not OK when it goes to the extent that u start to feel guilty yourself.

Johan, pls keep some perspective. Pls remember, why you got so frustrated. Please remember the good in her, but also remember all the other things.

 

You have not validated all that she thought about you. You are acting in self preservation, admitting when something is not working. She has pushed and pushed you away.

 

She probably cant help that at the moment, because she needs to work on herself first, before she can overcome that.

 

But honestly, speaking as a person who has pushed my loved one in the past, been obsessive, insecure, fearful etc....that is something SHE needs to address. It is not your fault. You getting angry, hurt upset, expecting more, is natural. Not wrong.

 

And you cant save her, or protect her from the world. That is not your job. In a relationship you can be a team and help her, but she needs to also do some of that herself.

Now that she has pushed you away, you must let go of the need to protect, and stop feeling bad that you cant.

I wonder what things you do she could see as reflecting a "darkness in you". She seems to fear committment and find reasons to avoid it.

I hope my honesty hear doesnt upset you. I hope you are OK.

I also am aware that there is an outside chance you guys might make up given the love you feel,and if you do, there will need to be some agreement on the way forward.

[Merin]

Johan, sorry I'm late on this (again) Jeez, I suck!

 

Anyway... remember when we've talked before and said somethings got to give? Maybe this was it... I know it hurts like hell and I know you're disappointed in how things have turned out, but honestly maybe this is what was needed for perspective on both sides.

 

You didn't leave her in the woods to be eaten... you've tried for 3 years to take her hand and lead her out of the woods, provide her with security and show her she has a home... but what can you do when you lead her home again and she runs out into the woods on her own? She's a grown Woman... you cannot force her to let you help her, or lead her out of the woods...

 

My guess is with enough time apart she is going to recognize what she had and want it back... the question then will be are you willing to take that chance with her again knowing the possibility of her running into that dark place again are very good.

 

Hope you know I'm here when or if you want to talk....

 

Hang in there

[NTB]

JS17: I can't imagine being this patient with someone else. Maybe I learned something.

 

 

love stinks and i hope it gets better for you and your that patient with her because you love her.....

[Candy Cane]

I don't understand any of this really. If you were there for her, why is she seeing something else? Why does she feel so alone...or is she just making something up because she's too scared to make a commitment?

 

Well, you can't force someone to marry you and if she's insistant that it's not something she's into, then yeah, you probably should turn the page.

 

But...don't get mad at her or blame yourself. It sounds like she has some issues that are beyond both you and her and it sounds like you gave everything you could to make the relationship work. You should pity her and offer her any friendly help she might want in the future. But...get on with your life and find someone who wants to get married (and believe me, there are millions of women who are looking for a nice commitment minded guy like yourself)!

[johan]

Thanks, everyone, for responding. It's been "no contact" now for almost three weeks.Strictly enforced by both of us. Mostly I've been cool about it because 1) I've been thinking that the problems keeping us apart are not mine, and 2) I've been confident in myself and not worried.

 

I feel bummed today. I've been thinking that maybe she didn't really love me. When I think she's just another one who didn't, my confidence goes in the toilet. That sucks.

 

It's not easy to meet people. No big deal when my heart is in it. But mine isn't now, and I don't see that changing any time soon. I haven't been interested in reaching out to anyone very much lately. I'm not even tempted to start the process of getting to know someone and developing trust. The biggest problem I can see is the trust. I've invested in several women, and it's been a total loss in every case.

 

Oh, well.

[Outcast]

I feel bummed today. I've been thinking that maybe she didn't really love me. When I think she's just another one who didn't, my confidence goes in the toilet. That sucks.

 

She loved you in a fashion but she sounds unable to truly love due to her issues. It's NOT about you.

 

It's not easy to meet people. No big deal when my heart is in it. But mine isn't now, and I don't see that changing any time soon. I haven't been interested in reaching out to anyone very much lately. I'm not even tempted to start the process of getting to know someone and developing trust.

 

Of course not! It was a three year relationship, wasn't it? You don't get over that in a few weeks.

 

The biggest problem I can see is the trust. I've invested in several women, and it's been a total loss in every case.

 

I was just talking about this very thing with a dear friend. Of course you must take your time to trust people. People should prove themselves to you before you decide to trust them. And that takes time.

 

Think of it this way: with each relationship, you've learned something new. Hopefully, you've learned from this one that a person who doesn't trust you and refuses to open up will never change if she doesn't change in the first year so you won't hang on for years and years hoping for the impossible next time.

[Candy Cane]

I feel bummed today. I've been thinking that maybe she didn't really love me. When I think she's just another one who didn't, my confidence goes in the toilet. That sucks.

 

Chin up, partner. You got to have a little faith in how things work. Everything is going to work out as it should. In the meantime, enjoy the ride.

[johan]

I have a question:

 

I think she loved me for real, but one of her fears was always of abandonment. In the end that's what she got. I chopped it off mercilessly. I'm sure she thinks if we had lived together I'd have kicked her out in the cold. Never mind the fact that what lead to the breakup was her pushing me to my limit.

 

When I broke it off with her, I REALLY broke it off. I gave her 30 minutes to get my stuff together and put it out for me to pick up. I forced her to give me back a printer that she was using for school, and she doesn't really have money for one of her own. I told her to put it all out for me and I didn't want to see her when I picked it up. And when I picked it up, I didn't see her. The next day, when she emailed me, I didn't respond. We've had no contact since then.

 

Is the bridge burnt?

[Merin]

IMO The Bridge is Burnt when you burn it... BUT happens all the time that people will rebuild the Bridge so to speak...

 

I suppose the trick is this... figuring out why the Bridge wasn't strong enough to begin with, AND deciding if the place it leads is worth going back too...

 

Pride is sucky uh? There is no way I'm believing after 3 years together that she feels nothing about this, AND I also think sometimes people full fill thier own phrophcy (her being afraid you'd one day abandon her)

 

 

[Art_Critic]

I suppose the trick is this... figuring out why the Bridge wasn't strong enough to begin with, AND deciding if the place it leads is worth going back too...

 

Almost Poetic Merin ..

 

I have always wondered about Johan's question myself and find your view impressive.. Thanks

 

 

Kinda like Merin's version of the serenity prayer

[Merin]

Almost Poetic Merin ..

 

I have always wondered about Johan's question myself and find your view impressive.. Thanks

 

 

Kinda like Merin's version of the serenity prayer

 

Thank's Arty... I appreciate that, and happy IF or when I can offer a different perspective...

[johan]

I have always wondered about Johan's question myself...

 

Would you mind saying more about this? Only because I'm kind of confused and have had tons of time to second-guess myself.

 

Maybe the answer is that the bridge is still there as long as we both love each other. The bridge is really gone when one of us decides the love is gone.

[Merin]

Maybe the answer is that the bridge is still there as long as we both love each other. The bridge is really gone when one of us decides the love is gone.

 

My perspective is.. The Bridge can only be rebuilt if both people in question are willing to look at why it was weak to begin with and BOTH people are willing to work TOGETHER to rebuild the bridge.. the distance is to far to do this alone.

[Art_Critic]

I've alway's been one of those go down burning in flames kinda guys when it comes to relationships.

I have alway's been the type that when things aren't going well to try harder and fix things until they can't be fixed anymore.

 

My last relationship ended because of my short temper and before she could say goodbye I was in front of a counselor for 4-5 sessions to figure out where the "new" quick temper was coming from.

It didn't impress her and we broke up anyway.

 

But I never know when the bridge is truly burnt .. Of course if she says she hates me and never wants to speak to me I don't have the problem., I have the problem when the breakup happens with all the grey areas.

 

I keep thinking that there has to be a chance.. but that is the romantic in me not the smart intelligent guy that believes that..

 

After hearing Merin's view it hit me that "deciding if the place it leads is worth going back too" is the real key .. but both parties have to be re-building the bridge

Knowing when enough is enough and when to cut bait ..

[johan]

Glad to know I'm not the only one going down in flames all the time. Some twisted kind of optimism you and I share.

 

The "is it worth building if it goes right back where it was" is a great thing I'll be able to evaluate with my 20/20 hindsight. In the heat of the moment, I'm usually into bridges for their own sake. It's hard going through life being such a dumbass.

[Outcast]

It's no crime to be a hoper. We find people who are great - and would be perfect except for some gruesomely serious flaw. And, sadly, your lady had a gruesomely serious flaw. And you tried and hoped and wished for it to change with all your might and you worked as hard as you could but we cannot change people and we cannot make or help or force them to change.

 

I think this bridge needed to be burned and that your clarity of vision at the time took the steps you needed to take to finally extricate yourself from an untenable situation.

[johan]

I'm bummed. No need to respond, I'm just posting as a follow up.

 

My anger at her has subsided, and I miss her a lot. I keep thinking about all the things I liked to do with her so much. Pretty much everything. I loved how we fit together and shared so many values. I loved how we cared about the same things in our lives. Now that I've met some other women, I appreciate even more how real and confident she is. And beautiful. I also loved how people thought about us when they saw us together: loving and caring and we looked good together. I loved how other guys checked her out. I always was so proud of her. I loved how honest we could be with each other. We didn't swallow any bitter little pills, but we teased each other and grew to really understand each other.

 

I hated being held at arm's length all the time, though. I hated how upset she would get over things that didn't mean anything. I always wished she could tell me what the real problem was, instead of just trying to make me jump through dumb emotional hoops. I wanted to be closer and more intimate and I wanted to marry her. I hated how against marriage she was when I wanted it. And I resent how she changed that story when she decided she didn't like how I behaved with my friend. That's when I snapped.

 

I may never understand what kept us apart. I'm pretty sure she doesn't, or at least she never shared any clues with me.

 

People who knew us keep telling me they are surprised that we haven't contacted each other yet. It was the consensus that she and I weren't really through. But I haven't heard a word from her. And as much as I'd like to have her in my life, I don't think it's wise for me to call her. I wish she would call me and come back with a different attitude. People don't really change, but they can change their attitudes and that would be good enough for me.

[johan]

27 day update: No direct contact.

 

She was in touch with a friend of mine over IM last week. She asked if he and I went out, which we did. Then she asked if I had a girl with me, which he said I didn't, which was true. She said she thought I must have a girl at the office, which is SO far from the truth. She volunteered to him that she had a date lined up, but he and I agreed that that sounded kind of weird, like she just wanted to let him know so he'd tell me and that would upset me. He said she seemed mad, but not sad. She was really pissed that the night I took my stuff, I didn't talk to her at all. I took it without seeing her. He told her he knew I missed her and had feelings for her, because I've told him pretty much everything I've posted here. She said "I find that hard to believe".

 

She often claimed that in my heart I really wanted to live the single life like this friend of mine does. For that reason it bothered her if he and I went out. She always asked for extra details about what I did at the office: it was "who were you with" thinly disguised as "how was your day"?

 

I've never cheated on anyone in my life. I've never even been tempted to cheat. I once messed around with a married woman, but it disgusted me so I stopped. I never talked about women at work. I hardly talked about work at all. I don't know where all her "intuition" about me came from. I'm dying for her to get over this and remember what we really had between her insecurity episodes.

 

I was bummed out today. I really miss her, and I just can't stand the idea of rebuilding with someone else. Particularly because it always ends for some really stupid reason.

[JS17]

Sorry that you're still hurting Johan.

Sometimes it's the breakup that really sticks with us. You know that your breakup wasn't pretty and I think you know that you took the harsh road. That's probably what's going to stick with her because when you break up with someone badly their only thought is how could someone that I loved and claimed to love me, treat me like this? Not trying to be harsh, just trying to help you understand her perspective. She's not going to get over the breakup or relationship so quickly, you were together for 3 years...YOU know that you just don't get over it so fast.

 

Again J, sorry that you're hurting. Life sux don't it