28 year old guy - should I completely ignore dating for about 10 years???

[clia]

I try to have normal conversation in all facets

 

as far as my style goes, I generally get about 4 to 7 compliments for how I dress every night I go out

 

here's a more recent pic with the shorter facial hair

 

https://s17.postimg.org/wiy0bs4un/20180126_134447.jpg

 

I don't see a chance in hell how I could be successful in online dating. I'm like a 6/10 there at best. Women on dating sites are wanting a David Candy or Zach Efron

 

You've been using this excuse for OLD for years. There are loads of average looking people who are able to date and meet people using OLD. Honestly, you refuse to take any advice from anyone here on ways you can meet women your age. It's no wonder you haven't met anyone.

 

With respect to your photos, the maroon shirt is too tight in the shoulders, arms, and chest. It doesn't fit right. The blue shirt in the other photo looked better, but still tight in the arms. You might need to find a better brand or cut for your build. If you are wearing ill-fitting clothes out to the club, that may also be part of your problem.

[mike3838]

 

And why shouldn't good looking 28 year old girls be picky--you are being picky. Same-same

 

so explain to me what standard I'm not satisfying

 

I'm

- extremely intelligent

- genuinely a very good person (everybody who knows me says the same thing). I'm ferociously loyal, unselfish, honest, affectionate, caring. I have old school middle eastern values ' we do anything for friends and family.

- make about a top 0.01% income for my age and I'm great with managing finances. Most guys who make good money at my age are horrible overspenders.

- in great shape, at least decent looking

- super fun lifestyle- go to the best bars, clubs, restaurants, concerts, sports events

- great family and friends. I'm all about quality interpersonal relationships

 

I don't understand what it is that I'm lacking.

 

and yes i am aware that this post makes me look very arrogant or conceited but thats an honest evaluation of myself. Everything I said there people have told me about myself a million times.

[d0nnivain]

I looked. You do look younger but the maroon shirt looks too tight. The buttons are pulling. It kind screams guido, player, can't be trusted. In a bar / club setting that will work to your detriment.

 

 

Older woman can tame that beast & aren't quick to believe everything some guy tells them while 20 somethings are afraid of getting burned / led on.

 

 

When I was a 20 something I liked your kind of "bad boy" . . .confident, knows what he wants, works hard, plays hard etc. Most of my friends would tell me to run screaming from these types of guys because they are "players". My husband often got labeled a player because of his swarthy good looks & dapper fashionable style. He couldn't be a player if he took lessons; it's not in his make up but my own mother warned me away from him on the grounds that he was "too good looking." Ironically when we met I thought he was a player which is exactly what I wanted -- a NSA good time. Instead we got married. I always sucked at picking "bad boys."

 

 

I am serious about the Henley. Go down-market this weekend & wear a shirt that is not as tight fitting without a collar. Smile. Lose the watch & see what happens, just as an experiment.

 

 

You could also try the other way. Find some local charity that is doing a high end black tie singles event around Valentine's Day. Put on a tux & go see what happens. The Guggenheim Museum in NYC use to throw a great Valentine's day singles event. Going in you knew the other person had enough of a social conscious to attend this, enough social contacts to get invited & enough liquidity to afford the tickets.

[mike3838]

You've been using this excuse for OLD for years. There are loads of average looking people who are able to date and meet people using OLD. Honestly, you refuse to take any advice from anyone here on ways you can meet women your age. It's no wonder you haven't met anyone.

 

yes but I want a cute girl who is in decent shape. She is not ok with average looking. She wants something spectacularly perfect

 

I'm just ok looking in the face. A cute 28 year old on match wants spectacularly perfect in the face

 

 

With respect to your photos, the maroon shirt is too tight in the shoulders, arms, and chest. It doesn't fit right. The blue shirt in the other photo looked better, but still tight in the arms. You might need to find a better brand or cut for your build. If you are wearing ill-fitting clothes out to the club, that may also be part of your problem.

 

I can't find clothes that fit me perfectly unless I tailor make it

 

my arms are very big for my frame, my waist is tiny for my frame. Nobody makes a shirt for a XL upper body with a size S waist. It doesn't exist

[mike3838]

He couldn't be a player if he took lessons; it's not in his make up.

 

yes I am same way. I have NO interest in being a player. I just want 1 quality girl

 

ok let's say we buy the excuse that older women aren't scared and that's why they approach me.

 

so why is it when I actually approach cute 28 year olds, they still want nothing to do with me? I'm super chill in real life/friendly/easy going. I don't try to have sex with them ASAP - I don't even care about getting laid at all. I'm not high pressure - I'm all about making people feel happy and confident

[d0nnivain]

I can't find clothes that fit me perfectly unless I tailor make it

 

my arms are very big for my frame, my waist is tiny for my frame. Nobody makes a shirt for a XL upper body with a size S waist. It doesn't exist

 

 

Then get it tailored. Buy the shirt that fits your arms & get the waist taken in. You said you make a good buck so invest in your wardrobe. When the shirt fits poorly it looks like you are trying to draw attention to your arms in a "look at me" play which is not attractive.

[littleblackheart]

OP, maybe you give the impression that no one will ever be good enough for you? You're going to big lengths yourself to endeavour to look like a 'male model' (and even they aren't all that good looking!). Maybe your own standards are too high?

[FilterCoffee]

Hey Mike,

 

From the information that you've given us, which is almost everything you could've provided, it's still hard to tell what the problem is. My suggestion would be to meet a dating coach and ask him to critique your approach. You sound good on paper so there must be something you're doing wrong when you meet women. Hopefully a professional can give you better advice.

 

All the best

[mike3838]

OP, maybe you give the imoression that no one will ever be good enough for you? You're going to big lengths yourself to endeavour to look like a 'male model' (and even they aren't all that good looking!). Maybe your own standards are too high?

 

 

I see tons of women I would love to date but they never want anything to do with me

 

there are these 3 cute girls who are in awesome shape at my gym that I'm crazy attracted to - they would probably laugh at me if I talked to them and asked them out

 

Tons of attractive women at my gym but they all want true chads (6'4 260 lbs male model face and 100% white looking instead of Spanish or Italian looking like me)

[Versacehottie]

so explain to me what standard I'm not satisfying

 

I'm

- extremely intelligent

- genuinely a very good person (everybody who knows me says the same thing). I'm ferociously loyal, unselfish, honest, affectionate, caring. I have old school middle eastern values ' we do anything for friends and family.

- make about a top 0.01% income for my age and I'm great with managing finances. Most guys who make good money at my age are horrible overspenders.

- in great shape, at least decent looking

- super fun lifestyle- go to the best bars, clubs, restaurants, concerts, sports events

- great family and friends. I'm all about quality interpersonal relationships

 

I don't understand what it is that I'm lacking

 

and yes i am aware that this post makes me look very arrogant or conceited but thats an honest evaluation of myself. Everything I said there people have told me about myself a million times.

 

Ok, and? Much like real estate and finance since you are into that stuff. You can be all of those things but your value in the market is what the market will bear, i.e. if you are not getting the attention you want then your value isn't as high as you've valued yourself, which means you change your marketing or your product. Last year I was telling a guy an awful like like you (same problems, same description of problems and income especially which is the dead give away and by the way he was 27 but this was last year so now he'd be 28 just like you isn't that ironic) a whole bunch of things about how he could change. You can look as my past posts to try to find it. Anyway if it's a year later and everything is the same and you are really trying the advice you've been given, then you are going to have to be flexible.

 

It really doesn't make sense to insist to a bunch of internet strangers that you are right about having all these qualities and having put in the right type of effort and try different things if the results are the same. I think you have a narrower appeal than you realize. For me, talking about the money would not impress me; it sounds like bragging and same with the access to the right clubs and stuff--any pretty 28 year old girl has easy access to clubs. It's not that you are financially doing well that's the turn off; it's the way you talk about it. To me, it signals a guy who leads with his money, will be a braggart and probably uses it to compensate for lack of other character traits I would want. If you have great friends and family, why haven't they been able to put a nice, beautiful girl in your pathway. I have middle eastern friends that is often what happens. It makes almost no sense at all to stomp your feet about getting hit on by 35 year olds--they are hitting on you because you look around 35/their age, which is what i think of your age when i look at your photo. In fact, not sure if you dismiss them immediately by asking their age because guaranteed some 35 year old women look 28. I guess you are just worried about the kids thing? Listen you are going to need to stop being so rigid if you want to really find someone.

[normal person]

And plenty of people have the opposite experience to yours. For example, just take a peek at the recent online dating thread on here and you'll find complaint after complaint about online dating and the quality of people it attracts, and relatively few people singing its praises.

 

If the measure of effectiveness is how many people start threads on it here, then your data will be skewed because people only start threads to get advice. No one starts threads to say "everything's fine and I have no complaints." Sure, "a lot" of people do need help. But I'd wager most people don't. It's not rocket science. I don't know anyone outside of this forum who can't figure it out.

 

Notice that I specifically did not say "decent quality people don't go to bars or use online dating". I said they're not particularly great avenues for finding decent quality people.

 

I understand your point but I feel like it's a reach and we're just dancing around semantics here.

 

That isn't the same thing at all. If you hit on a girl in a bar and she says yes, it's more likely that she's at the partying stage of life, that she's just after a hookup, that she's saying yes for the wrong reasons (i.e. purely because of your looks and not because she thinks you'd make a great partner). Again, notice I said "more likely".

 

"More likely" to the point where you think it'll make any significant difference at the end of the day? I don't. I think you're splitting hairs here. Regardless of where you meet someone, it's usually pretty easy to get a decent read on them after a few minutes, whether or not you've got a drink in your hand. Some people at bars and online dating aren't worth your time, sure. Just ignore them. There are plenty of others.

 

Again, that isn't what I said. I didn't say it is easier to get to know someone in location X vs location Y. I said it's easier to go from someone you've gotten to know to dating them, than it is to date them out of nowhere, with no previous context to work from.

 

Agree to disagree. I think it's just as easy, if not easier. At a bar or online, people are usually actively looking and open to meeting someone. The subtexts aren't hard to decode. Other places need to be navigated a lot more carefully especially with the current climate of politics, offense, victimhood, workplace harassment, etc.

 

But, for the sake of the argument, yes, the ease with which you can get to know someone IS contingent on where you meet them. As the OP has found, getting to know a girl in a bar isn't easy.

 

It hasn't been easy for him anywhere else either, so I think it's presumptuous to say that it's the venue's fault and not something else.

 

 

But even so, I would say that it is worse. Generally a guy hitting on a girl at a bar is probably looking for a hookup, and the girls know that. That means the ones that say yes are going in with that expectation.

 

There's a monumental difference between a guy who says "do you want to get out of here?" and the guy who says "give me your number and I'll take you out next week." A girl doesn't have to decode intentions on "probably looking for a hookup." Eventually it will be obvious what a person's intentions are. If they find them disagreeable, they don't oblige. That's it. Focus on the people who's values align with yours and disregard the rest. Again, it's not rocket science.

 

As for speed dating - the OP has come here for advice because his current methods (bars, clubs, gyms, online dating) are not working for him. When something isn't working, then a new approach is worth at least a try.

 

I won't disagree with the philosophy but I've never heard of anyone, especially under the age of 40, speed dating.

 

As for your assertion that nobody in the last decade has used speed dating, I ask what planet YOU are living on In my city, there are multiple speed dating events taking place just about every day of the week.

 

Different cultures, I suppose. I live in Midtown Manhattan. It's not exactly a place that has some cultural catching up to do. Everyone online dates and goes to bars. I've never heard "speed dating" uttered in my years living here. The people I associate with and meet are professionals with advanced degrees.

 

I'm 195 lbs and very lean now. I want to be 5'10 210 lbs and totally ripped by 38

 

It'll be monumentally easier for you now at 25 then it will be at 38. And the process won't take 13 years. It's sort of odd how you don't know that.

 

I'm also going to get surgery to fix my hair - it's very dense now but my hairline has slightly receded and my crown has slightly thinned. I want male model perfect hair

 

Lots of women are turned off by men who are too caught up on their own appearance. You seem to be firmly in this category. The fact that you don't know this makes me wonder what else you haven't picked up on.

 

attractive 25 year olds don't approach anybody. That's silly

 

They approach me and I'm your height and thinner. It happens to my friends as well.

 

on a scale of 1-10, I am probably an 8.5/10 in real life and like a 7 in pics

 

There's a school of thought that says men tend to overestimate their attractiveness and women tend to underestimate theirs. If you're a man, subtract 2 from whatever number you think you are. If you're a woman, add 2.

 

Women my age in dating sites want 10/10 males. They're getting 5845855576676 messages a day - why settle for mediocrity??

 

Most women can't get a 10 because there aren't many to begin with, and a 10 will only date his or her equivalent. You said it yourself -- why settle for mediocrity? Matching hypothesis suggests you'll end up with your rough equivalent in terms of looks, socioeconomic status, etc. So all those women who can't get a 10 will have to accept the reality of the market and take what they can get, be it a 9, 8, 7. You didn't address the point that I made suggesting if women only were in it for 10s, the businesses would have failed a long time ago.

 

those girls are impossible though if you want anybody of quality

 

Hasn't been my experience at all.

 

Look, you say you're nearly perfect yet you're befuddled as to why no women your age seem to want you. There's only so much that can be deduced from an online forum. I would suggest you give yourself an intense audit and see (and I mean this in the nicest possible way), if you're really as great as you think you are. Then figure out how to change. Normally when guys are struggling, conventional wisdom is to go to the gym, buy some nicer clothes, and make some more money. If I were you I'd cut back on the gym (the obsessiveness will turn most away) and dress down a bit (women get turned off when you're more into your own appearance than you are there's or too into your own in general). You already make decent money but you shouldn't act like that qualifies you. Better to downplay it, it's much more appealing and respectable than arrogance, which no one likes. I'm very much in your camp in not settling for mediocrity and living your best life, but if you do things so desperately and obviously, as you appear to be, it's a huge turn off. You can live your best life with security and subtlety.

[mike3838]

Then get it tailored. Buy the shirt that fits your arms & get the waist taken in. You said you make a good buck so invest in your wardrobe. When the shirt fits poorly it looks like you are trying to draw attention to your arms in a "look at me" play which is not attractive.

 

 

the problem for me is I like European fashion. Lots of those don't even go above Extra large

.

I would have to buy like Double XL and get waist taken. I've never worn double XL in my life

[Versacehottie]

yes but I want a cute girl who is in decent shape. She is not ok with average looking. She wants something spectacularly perfect

 

I'm just ok looking in the face. A cute 28 year old on match wants spectacularly perfect in the face

 

 

 

 

I can't find clothes that fit me perfectly unless I tailor make it

 

my arms are very big for my frame, my waist is tiny for my frame. Nobody makes a shirt for a XL upper body with a size S waist. It doesn't exist

 

well get that sh*t tailored then. You make 6 figures, an alteration fee is a drop in the bucket

[clia]

yes but I want a cute girl who is in decent shape. She is not ok with average looking. She wants something spectacularly perfect

 

This simply is not true. I know it's the narrative you like to spin, but it's total BS. My source is that once upon a time I used to be a cute girl in decent shape in my 20s and so were my friends. None of us were looking for "spectacularly perfect." But I understand it's easier for you to blame the girls then to try to change anything about yourself or how you are doing things.

 

My best recollection is that you've never even tried OLD. Is that true?

 

I can't find clothes that fit me perfectly unless I tailor make it

 

my arms are very big for my frame, my waist is tiny for my frame. Nobody makes a shirt for a XL upper body with a size S waist. It doesn't exist

 

You buy a larger shirt and have it tailored. Or go somewhere and have your shirts custom made. If you really make $200k a year, you can easily afford it.

[d0nnivain]

yes I am same way. I have NO interest in being a player. I just want 1 quality girl

 

ok let's say we buy the excuse that older women aren't scared and that's why they approach me.

 

so why is it when I actually approach cute 28 year olds, they still want nothing to do with me? I'm super chill in real life/friendly/easy going. I don't try to have sex with them ASAP - I don't even care about getting laid at all. I'm not high pressure - I'm all about making people feel happy and confident

 

 

Do you have any sisters, female cousins, dear female friends or in a pinch the GF of a really good buddy who can give you an honest appraisal? without watching you in action, it's hard to diagnose over the internet but you are doing something wrong.

 

 

I have a good guy buddy. I was 30 & he was 28 when we met. He's very handsome, had a good job, dressed well & is highly intelligent. (20 years later he's still all those things but he's happily married.) He whined all the time that he couldn't get a GF. Made no sense to me. So finally one night me, my BF & him went to a club. I was sort of his wingwoman. As I suspected as soon as we walked in, women's heads were turning all over the club. We made it to the bar & my buddy laments that it's always the same, nobody noticed him. As he was explaining this to me, at least two women were physically touching him, rubbing against him on the pretext of getting a drink. I wanted to whack him upside the head for being dense. Instead, I talked to the two women vying for his attention & introduced both of them to him. He was still oblivious. The girls left & my BF came over to give my buddy the man's perspective on the whole thing. I think my BF said something vulgar like "Dude, when you walked in I think every single woman in here except D0nnivain, dropped her panties." My BF went on to assure my buddy that if he played his cards right he could probably have sex with somebody on the premises. Once we opened his eyes to the signals he was missing, my buddy found it much easier to date. He met his wife about 6-9 months later.

 

 

From that experience I also wonder what women you are overlooking.

[mike3838]

Ok, and? Much like real estate and finance since you are into that stuff

 

didn't answer the question. What possible requirement am I not satisfying??

 

You really think I look 35 with the shorter stubble?? I feel like I look more about 32. Why wouldn't a 28 year-old girl want an attractive early 30s guy??

 

pic with shorter stubble https://s17.postimg.org/wiy0bs4un/20180126_134447.jpg

[d0nnivain]

I see tons of women I would love to date but they never want anything to do with me

 

there are these 3 cute girls who are in awesome shape at my gym that I'm crazy attracted to - they would probably laugh at me if I talked to them and asked them out

 

Tons of attractive women at my gym but they all want true chads (6'4 260 lbs male model face and 100% white looking instead of Spanish or Italian looking like me)

 

 

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. You don't actually know what these women want. You think you do & you're probably wrong.

 

 

This is a big part of your problem. You really don't talk to everybody. You make up your mind about what you think others want & you refuse to let the true facts get in your way.

 

the problem for me is I like European fashion. Lots of those don't even go above Extra large

.

I would have to buy like Double XL and get waist taken. I've never worn double XL in my life

 

 

The European fashion is why you are getting hit on by gay men & not straight women. Even if the women think you are straight that clothing choice turns off women are used to dating frat boys in levi's & beer t-shirts.

[Ruby Slippers]

You do seem familiar. Someone mentioning Chicago and you mentioning that you're Middle Eastern and you sense that most women in your area favor white men rings a bell.

 

It's a fact that most white women in the Midwest are going to favor white men, just as much due to family expectations as their own preferences. Are you only looking for white girls or other ethnicities, too?

[olivetree]

I don't know what part of Europe your family is from, but I have heard from a few Eastern European men that they have trouble connecting with women in North America, especially younger ones.

 

Eastern European men are usually deep, genuine/speak their mind and interdependent.

Something more mature, family-oriented women are drawn to, or other Eastern European women.

 

Why not date a woman who is early 30's or from a similar cultural background?

She's probably ready for something serious but might be willing to wait a few years to have kids.

 

I will say that your style also might also be more appealing to older women.

Are you willing to change it?

[littleblackheart]

I see tons of women I would love to date but they never want anything to do with me

 

there are these 3 cute girls who are in awesome shape at my gym that I'm crazy attracted to - they would probably laugh at me if I talked to them and asked them out

 

Tons of attractive women at my gym but they all want true chads (6'4 260 lbs male model face and 100% white looking instead of Spanish or Italian looking like me)

 

You are making a lot of assumptions about women you don't know. Are all the women that catch your attention at the gym? Is there a way for you to widen your horizons maybe?

[Brieanna]

I feel like quality women have impossible standards

You keep saying that these women you do like, within the age you like, are looking for something more perfect than you. You even described the tyoe they want.

 

How???

 

How are you assuming that you know the type they want?

 

You keep listing these traits that they want, and talk about achieving perfection, yet it is a perfection based on financial, hairline, and other things you decided that these women want.

 

What about listing character traits????

 

Because you seem to me unattractive. I don’t mean physically...

You have not expressed gratitude towards posters.

You have not demonstrated flexibility in your personality and thought process in engaging in this thread.

You seem rigid in your thoughts and attitude.

 

You keep reverting to a “comfort” of “zillions” or so compliments you hold onto for a sense of self worth...or way of measuring stuff.

 

I am way over 20, yet when I am looking for a man, I am looking at his character traits. Telling me you are kind, and try to make people happy, isn’t convincing.

 

Had you shown more graciousness towards those here investing their time in assisting you, that imo, would have demo more character traits that are sexy.

 

Instead, you appear to respond in some rigid, almost obsessively focusing on external stuff manner.

 

I am not attempting to be insulting here. Yet, you do seem outwardly focused vs looking at seeking values and charater traits.

 

So it is a bit of an oxymoron to say you want to make yourself achieve this perfection to ensure you attract a “quality” woman. Imo, a quality woman does not care about your hairline, biceps, etc.

 

Sounds like maybe your issue is your own standards for perfection.

[mike3838]

Do you have any sisters, female cousins, dear female friends or in a pinch the GF of a really good buddy who can give you an honest appraisal? without watching you in action, it's hard to diagnose over the internet but you are doing something wrong.

 

 

I have a good guy buddy. I was 30 & he was 28 when we met. He's very handsome, had a good job, dressed well & is highly intelligent. (20 years later he's still all those things but he's happily married.) He whined all the time that he couldn't get a GF. Made no sense to me. So finally one night me, my BF & him went to a club. I was sort of his wingwoman. As I suspected as soon as we walked in, women's heads were turning all over the club. We made it to the bar & my buddy laments that it's always the same, nobody noticed him. As he was explaining this to me, at least two women were physically touching him, rubbing against him on the pretext of getting a drink. I wanted to whack him upside the head for being dense. Instead, I talked to the two women vying for his attention & introduced both of them to him. He was still oblivious. The girls left & my BF came over to give my buddy the man's perspective on the whole thing. I think my BF said something vulgar like "Dude, when you walked in I think every single woman in here except D0nnivain, dropped her panties." My BF went on to assure my buddy that if he played his cards right he could probably have sex with somebody on the premises. Once we opened his eyes to the signals he was missing, my buddy found it much easier to date. He met his wife about 6-9 months later.

 

 

From that experience I also wonder what women you are overlooking.

 

 

I am very good at reading body language. I don't miss signs

 

I get that sorta behavior all the time from older women and gays. The cute 23 to 28 year olds are totally repulsed by me

[Yosemite]

Based on your pic, your looks and style aren’t the issue. So, that means the issue is your personality or you don’t ask women out.

 

How women in your desired age range have you asked out in the past month?

 

Why haven’t you ever had a relationship before? If quietness/shyness is your issue, practice talking to everyone regardless of age or gender every time you’re in public.

 

Have you actually tried online dating or are you going by what you’ve read? If you haven’t tried it, try it.

 

It seems like bars aren’t your thing since you can’t get a date there, so you need to try other things like meet up groups and activities. If you like dogs and have the time for one, get a dog and you’ll meet tons of people when you’re walking it. You’ll meet dog owners and non-dog owners, kids, men and women; but be sure that you love dogs and can take good care of one first.

 

I would maintain where you’re at physically and ditch the plan to gain more muscle and weight. You spend enough time in the gym, you need to try new things to meet women.

 

 

I see tons of women I would love to date but they never want anything to do with me

 

Do you talk to these women and ask them out or do you just assume that they don't want anything to do with you?

 

there are these 3 cute girls who are in awesome shape at my gym that I'm crazy attracted to - they would probably laugh at me if I talked to them and asked them out

 

So, there are three women you’re attracted to at your gym and it sounds like you haven’t even talked to them let alone asked them out. This is your problem, not your looks, not your hairline, not your beard, not your shirt choice; the problem is you don’t ask out women.

 

So, how many women have you asked out in the past 6 months?

[melonmint57]

Hi Mike,

 

We're the same age. As others suggested I think giving OLD a shot wouldn't be a bad idea. If you're not currently having any luck meeting women at your preferred spots, you have nothing to lose. I've had some luck and it gives you an opportunity to get to know someone a bit online before deciding if you'd like to meet in person.

 

I'd also suggest being a little more down-to-earth. It might work wonders for you!

[mike3838]

You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. You don't actually know what these women want. You think you do & you're probably wrong.

 

there are multiple 6'4 260 lb super huge male model handsome guys at my gym

 

Why would they settle for mediocrity? I am mediocre compared to those men

 

A cute and super fit 28 year old girl is getting hit on 24/7. She is looking for a guy who is 1 in a million perfect. I understand that personality is very important but plenty of those guys have good personalities too. I've talked to a couple of those dudes at my gym and they were super nice.