He crossed a boundary. Should I forgive him?

January 5, 2018

'

My GF raised her voice on me (rudely, I guess) on the first day we met. We are happily married now more than 20 years.

Is this fact has the chance that you will change your mind a little bit? Maybe to think not to be so determind about sending girls to break up from the person they love?

BTW - me and my gf (now wife) told each other we loved each other after about 2-3 weeks of dating. I'm so sorry that I stepped out of line and didn't follow your premitted time table, but is this fact may change your mind a little bit, to be a less determind on when and how people might fall in love?

BTW 2 - my GF (now wife) has never raised a hand on me. Yet she raises her voice on me many times. We still love each other. Please remember that fact before you compare someone who raises his voice, to a violent man.

Thank you

I think you're onto something, and I agree. Relationships are messy, and stuff is going to happen.

Because of the frequency of real sexual and emotional abuse that happens in society and has historically been underplayed, people are more ready than ever these days to rally their support behind claims of abuse. Just look at the responses in this thread from people who are going off of very limited information and one side of the story. Suddenly, there is a male perpetrator on the loose! And until he *gasp* raised his voice (and we know little about her role in this), he was apparently a great partner. Now we have people shouting from corners of the internet, "dump him; he's an abusive man."

Supporting victims of abuse is good when it's actual abuse, which in many cases it is, but we have to be honest and acknowledge that sometimes claims can be false or exaggerated (either deliberately or by influence of a trauma history/flashback response). If we just write off every conflict in interpersonal relationships as "abuse, manipulation, control, etc..." we're not really promoting relationships in a realistic way at all. Relationships are dirty work.

Sh*t happens in relationships, and that's never going to change. Conflict is actually a very good thing when the partners are mature and desire to use it as an opportunity to deepen the intimacy of experiencing each other's humanity. I'm not talking about accepting physical violence, name-calling, etc... stuff that IS intended to hurt someone and control them out of fear and insecurity. In those instances, people need to either get professional help if they want to work through it, but in most cases, I think once it crosses that line it's usually best to walk away.

My point: People are WAY too sensitive these days and, if we keep on jumping to conclusions in the name of political correct, it's going to make both our social relationships worse and also our ability to tolerate personal distress worse. I don't care if I don't sound politically correct. That's the truth.

Edited January 5, 2018 by TunaInTheBrine

January 5, 2018

Sh*t happens in relationships, and that's never going to change. Conflict is actually a very good thing when the partners are mature and desire to use it as an opportunity to deepen the intimacy of experiencing each other's humanity. People are WAY too sensitive these days and, if it keeps up, it's going to make both are relationships worse and also our ability to tolerate personal distress worse. I don't care if I don't sound politically correct. That's the truth.

Your theory doesn't fit with the statistics. Still in 2018 35% of women in North America are living in abusive relationships. Which means 35% of women put up with physical abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse and financial abuse in the name of *love* and in the name of *relationships*.

It's also statistics that women coming out of abusive relationships will often end up in a 2nd abusive relationships and I think it's OP's case. I am part of those statistics, It took me 2 abusive relationships to wake up and now I can smell an abusive man 2000km away. I smell controlling and abusive all over OP's boyfriend.

OP will remain in that relationship because she doubts herself. She still believe people can change or people can be *accidentally* abusive and if we point it out to them it will never happen again. The truth is people don't change, yellers will be yellers, abusers will be abusers. She should trust her instinct.

January 5, 2018

FWIW.. a guy whose natural tendency in his personality is to raise his voice isn't going to change just because you have boundaries.

January 5, 2018

Your theory doesn't fit with the statistics. Still in 2018 35% of women in North America are living in abusive relationships. Which means 35% of women put up with physical abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse and financial abuse in the name of *love* and in the name of *relationships*.

It's also statistics that women coming out of abusive relationships will often end up in a 2nd abusive relationships and I think it's OP's case. I am part of those statistics, It took me 2 abusive relationships to wake up and now I can smell an abusive man 2000km away. I smell controlling and abusive all over OP's boyfriend.

OP will remain in that relationship because she doubts herself. She still believe people can change or people can be *accidentally* abusive and if we point it out to them it will never happen again. The truth is people don't change, yellers will be yellers, abusers will be abusers. She should trust her instinct.

I'm sorry to hear about your history. I work directly with relationship trauma, violence, etc... so I'm well-versed in both literature and experience. Sure, statistics illustrate a tendency, but it's not so black-and-white all the time so it doesn't change what I said. What I said isn't theory. It's the truth.

January 5, 2018

Before your GF yelled at you had you specifically told her you don't want yelling in your relationship? Because OP told him.

Not at the first time, but I expressed my incovenience about it many times. But please don't try to search arguments underground. The topic "Is he a man who can and wills to fullfill all his Gf's requests?" You compared his behavior to a behavior of a violent man.

What if she would have told us that in her last abusive R her Bf was cutting her words all the time and was't listening? I can only speak for myself, but for me when someone cuts me in a middle of a sentence, it hurts and frustrates much more than if someone talks loudly or yells at me. Because the yelling might come from many reasons, most of them internal reasons that have nothing to do with me, but if they cut my words, it means that they don't listen. Which is very frustrating.

Because your yelling wife doesn't hit you then a man yelling at his GF won't hit her. This is an insult to all the 35% of women living in abusive relationships.

I don't think that yelling has anything to do with violence. Violence happens quietly, loudly, silently, with a cold attitude or a passionate attitude, or many other kinds of behavior that comes with it. On the other hand, yelling can happen with not even an atmosphere of violence.

I don't know where did you find this number of 35% of the women who lives in an abusive relationships, but you're misleading the argument. because with any real number of abusive relationships for women, the link between abusive relationships and yelling, is your interpretation only. Other people can link between abusive relationship with "he never talks with me, always silent at me, ignoring me" which is the opposite of yelling.

January 5, 2018

What I said isn't theory. It's the truth.

The truth as you see it.

January 5, 2018

Lets restate the obvious..OP stated that it was a one time thing and he apologized. Also, in posting, we can't even get the context of the discussion or his side of things...All we get that the OP was triggered. And now she wants to bail or crucify him along with the rest of the feminine side of posting here. That's fine, but in examining the relationship in a whole, I think a deep breath needs to be taken and some actual consideration for BOTH sides can levy some clarity and understanding.

I in NO WAY excuse actual abuse, but calling everything as a personal affront and attack against one side or the other is disingenuous at best. This only leads generally good guys left not taking a change on a generally good gal, in fear of walking on eggshells or at worst landmines concerning relationships. We see this today with Female general unhappiness and male absentee behavior. Somewhere we need to throw the white flag in and meet in a common ground. I bet the OP's boyfriend has a lot of good traits and habits that strengthen her security and well-being. I would love to hear about that too...

Edited January 5, 2018 by BarbedFenceRider
spelling.

January 5, 2018

I don't know where did you find this number of 35% of the women who lives in an abusive relationships, but you're misleading the argument. because with any real number of abusive relationships for women, the link between abusive relationships and yelling, is your interpretation only. Other people can link between abusive relationship with "he never talks with me, always silent at me, ignoring me" which is the opposite of yelling.

Now, we need to redirect this conversation.

A poster said OP interrupted her boyfriend when he was speaking and he yelled at her so they are both responsible. I replied to that it was not logic, and gave an example of physical abuse. My parallel to physical abuse ends there. I am sorry if it derailed the thread. I am not, in anyway, saying this man will end up hitting her. What I am convinced of, because of the context of his yelling, is that OP's boyfriend will be controlling.

I would like to point also when we use the word *abuse* it does not mean all the time physical abuse. Controlling is abuse, manipulation is abuse, using fear is abuse, using power is abuse etc etc.

January 5, 2018

I don't think there's enough information here to know if the yelling is a sign of abuse. It's likely a sign that people in his family yell, which is prevalent in certain cultures, and he's just used to it as a communication style but doesn't mean anything aggressive by it. If that's not acceptable to the OP, she's not going to be able to completely change this after 2 months of dating.. so if it's a deal breaker and she feels in her gut that something isn't right, she should walk.

However. I'd also recommend speaking to a therapist. It doesn't necessarily sound like she's gotten over her past relationship and learned the tools to manage triggers, and that's baggage that will get in the way of new relationships, walls that will push away new partners even if they're more compatible. Yes, sometimes triggers are a good warning that something isn't right, and you should listen to your gut and leave. But other times, they are a leftover result of baggage and may be there because you have more work to do on yourself that's unrelated to the new situation. A therapist can help steer you towards which boundaries are helpful, healthy, and appropriate, and which are walls, not warnings, which may make your life harder.

January 5, 2018

Now, we need to redirect this conversation.

A poster said OP interrupted her boyfriend when he was speaking and he yelled at her so they are both responsible. I replied to that it was not logic, and gave an example of physical abuse. My parallel to physical abuse ends there. I am sorry if it derailed the thread. I am not, in anyway, saying this man will end up hitting her. What I am convinced of, because of the context of his yelling, is that OP's boyfriend will be controlling.

I would like to point also when we use the word *abuse* it does not mean all the time physical abuse. Controlling is abuse, manipulation is abuse, using fear is abuse, using power is abuse etc etc.

I understand and accept your explanation about the "violence" intention.

But I of course cannot agree with your rule "yelling is abusing", and in the same message "cutting him off" which means "not listening"is not abusing". I will go further on that.

Trying to establish an opinion on "who was abusive" (if at all) according to a single situation is rediculous. You heard only one side, and this side didn't eve discribe an extremely hard siuation. Yet it doesn't stop you to firmly recommend her to break up with him because he will probably be an abusive man, or at least a controlling man. And you know it out of a single event, hearing one side, who didn't even give details about the dialogue.

You may carry a "past", but when people come here, they are in a sensitive situation, and seek for insights and they might be easy to be effected.

BTW, I would never agree to be with any woman who expects me to walk on nutshells with her. If someone is sensitive to something (yelling, cleaning, nosie, or rock music) I will always try to respect it and take it into account, but never when it come in a shape of an ultimatum. You talk about abusing?

ultimatum is a very common element in abusive relationships. When someone says "I'm very sensitive with raising voices at me - because of my previous relationship", It is a very legitimate request. But when some says "If you raise your voice at me even just once, I will leave you" ,it's a form of an abusive action. And this abusive behavior is common with both genders.

Edited January 5, 2018 by lolablue17

January 5, 2018

Now, we need to redirect this conversation.

A poster said OP interrupted her boyfriend when he was speaking and he yelled at her so they are both responsible. I replied to that it was not logic, and gave an example of physical abuse. My parallel to physical abuse ends there. I am sorry if it derailed the thread. I am not, in anyway, saying this man will end up hitting her. What I am convinced of, because of the context of his yelling, is that OP's boyfriend will be controlling.

I would like to point also when we use the word *abuse* it does not mean all the time physical abuse. Controlling is abuse, manipulation is abuse, using fear is abuse, using power is abuse etc etc.

We have to be careful with our words. Abuse conjures up intent to harm, control, demoralize, etc... You're calling her boyfriend abusive. Based on what she said about his behavior before and after the argument, I don't get that same image. I get the image of two people whose stuff both got activated (as happens in relationships), experienced it out with each other (again, as happens in relationships), and it was dealt with. The greatest distress of it seems to be not in what actually happened, but how it was psychologically interpreted as a re-experiencing as past trauma. That's not abuse. That's a flashback. But suddenly labeling someone as an abuser, perpetrator, etc... based on your own flashbacks is not cool, and perhaps could even be classified as "abusive" itself, no? So yeah, we need to be careful with our words.

I once had a woman I dated several times. She was literally one of the best matches I ever came across. But we kept going on and off because she had a serious trauma history and over-reacted to EVERYTHING I did or said that her body spontaneously generated an unpleasant emotion around. She perceived offense and immorality easily, and was quick to criticize/judge others. I picked up on this in our second date and I became almost scared to say anything to her. But one day, I knew I had to say something. I finally fessed up and told her sometimes she came across as judgmental and critical, and I did so not to "hurt her" but because that was the next level of intimacy and honesty I felt we needed in our conversation to progress further as an item. She flipped out, and wouldn't you know that suddenly I was labeled by her as "a domestic violence risk," an "Asian fetishsizer" (because she is Asian), and "manipulative," and all her friends heard about this soon after. I ended it right there. I wound up giving her a second and then a third chance, knowing that she had a rough history, and I was willing to be understanding of it. But she simply wasn't willing to own her stuff, refused therapy, was emotionally distant, and gave me the silent treatment or got very passive-aggressive if she was in a bad mood. She saw no problem taking it out on me or others because "they are the bad ones." So, was I abused? If the situation were reversed, would my "abusive behavior" toward her be justified now because of my past and now it's not my fault? What role does gender play? I could go on...

Again, my point is that we are WAY too quick these days to throw around strong language, give polarized opinions or advice, without consideration that is rational and contextual. In cases of actual abuse, sure, this benefits those who require support and validation, but it's going to create a lot of problems along the way as we condition everyone to bail at the first sign of conflict and unpleasant emotion. I'm not sure we're really meeting halfway as men or women anymore because of discussions like this.

Edited January 5, 2018 by TunaInTheBrine

January 6, 2018

We have to be careful with our words. Abuse conjures up intent to harm, control, demoralize, etc... You're calling her boyfriend abusive. Based on what she said about his behavior before and after the argument, I don't get that same image. I get the image of two people whose stuff both got activated (as happens in relationships), experienced it out with each other (again, as happens in relationships), and it was dealt with. The greatest distress of it seems to be not in what actually happened, but how it was psychologically interpreted as a re-experiencing as past trauma. That's not abuse. That's a flashback. But suddenly labeling someone as an abuser, perpetrator, etc... based on your own flashbacks is not cool, and perhaps could even be classified as "abusive" itself, no? So yeah, we need to be careful with our words.

I once had a woman I dated several times. She was literally one of the best matches I ever came across. But we kept going on and off because she had a serious trauma history and over-reacted to EVERYTHING I did or said that her body spontaneously generated an unpleasant emotion around. She perceived offense and immorality easily, and was quick to criticize/judge others. I picked up on this in our second date and I became almost scared to say anything to her. But one day, I knew I had to say something. I finally fessed up and told her sometimes she came across as judgmental and critical, and I did so not to "hurt her" but because that was the next level of intimacy and honesty I felt we needed in our conversation to progress further as an item. She flipped out, and wouldn't you know that suddenly I was labeled by her as "a domestic violence risk," an "Asian fetishsizer" (because she is Asian), and "manipulative," and all her friends heard about this soon after. I ended it right there. I wound up giving her a second and then a third chance, knowing that she had a rough history, and I was willing to be understanding of it. But she simply wasn't willing to own her stuff, refused therapy, was emotionally distant, and gave me the silent treatment or got very passive-aggressive if she was in a bad mood. She saw no problem taking it out on me or others because "they are the bad ones." So, was I abused? If the situation were reversed, would my "abusive behavior" toward her be justified now because of my past and now it's not my fault? What role does gender play? I could go on...

Again, my point is that we are WAY too quick these days to throw around strong language, give polarized opinions or advice, without consideration that is rational and contextual. In cases of actual abuse, sure, this benefits those who require support and validation, but it's going to create a lot of problems along the way as we condition everyone to bail at the first sign of conflict and unpleasant emotion. I'm not sure we're really meeting halfway as men or women anymore because of discussions like this.

Well said!!

I know people that are complaining about their abusive partner, while for me, sitting near them and thinking that it's the other way around, and the one who is complaining, is the real abuser.

Today there are people who difine as "abuse" every situation in which they are insulted, or hurt, or frustrated. It causes real damage to our ability to spot real abusive relationships, and make it more difficult to help them.

As for the OP - I trust people who lose their temper once in a while, much more than people who are able to repress their natural behavior and can fake a behavior that suites demands. When you forbid someone to raise his voice (no matter your reasons), I'll tell you what you might miss:

Men with high value in the market, with high confidence, high self esteme, men who are succesful and doing well, these men won't tolerate any women who will try to limit their natural behavior, and will never agree to any color of ultimatums or unequivocal rules.

So by this rule you create a bad filter. Do you know who will get through your filter? Only men that have very little options, men with low value, men that have the ability supress themselves to live a fake relationshipo under unequivocal rules for a long time.

But here's the catch, it's not forever - Some day their real nature will show up. And than you will get a lot of resentment and raising voice will be your last problem. WHen you let people being themselves, you have a much better chance to meet a long term relationship material.

Edited January 6, 2018 by lolablue17

January 6, 2018

I can't comment on abuse as I'm still waiting to hear what exactly was said before his outburst.

Given the context of the conversation, the whole thing doesn't make sense. Either the OP is downplaying how she behaved prior to the outburst or he's just a complete nutter.

January 6, 2018

I agree with Basil in that I can't necessarily comment as I'd need to know context.

The only 'actual things we know is that the OP interrupted (did OP over-talk him?) and he raised his voice in response.

Over-talking can be a sign of someone who has potential to be controlling too so until we hear context this seems pretty equal especially as the OP has admitted she wasn't clear about her boundary when expressing it to him - all of which has now been made clear and discussed.

January 6, 2018

jigitties 53#

FWIW.. a guy whose natural tendency in his personality is to raise his voice isn't going to change just because you have boundaries.

^^ True, but boundaries aren't put there to try and change other peoples' behaviour, they are to protect the individual.

January 6, 2018

Men with high value in the market, with high confidence, high self esteme, men who are succesful and doing well, these men won't tolerate any women who will try to limit their natural behavior, and will never agree to any color of ultimatums or unequivocal rules.

So by this rule you create a bad filter. Do you know who will get through your filter? Only men that have very little options, men with low value, men that have the ability supress themselves to live a fake relationshipo under unequivocal rules for a long time. l.

But is that not part of the problem, that so called "high value" men are allowed to yell, are allowed to dismiss people, are allowed to stomp all over everybody, are allowed to cross other people's boundaries, and people (and women especially) are just supposed to put up with it as it is not abuse, no, it is just the way they are...

How dare she cut across him and give her opinion, she better not do that again... Of course he was annoyed and showed it, she is not supposed to challenge his authority...

Yelling (verbal aggression) is about a show of power, it is about intimidation, it is designed to shut people up and make them scared.

I am not sure where the "high value" really comes in to it.

January 6, 2018

Men with high value in the market, with high confidence, high self esteme, men who are succesful and doing well, these men won't tolerate any women who will try to limit their natural behavior, and will never agree to any color of ultimatums or unequivocal rules.

So by this rule you create a bad filter. Do you know who will get through your filter? Only men that have very little options, men with low value, men that have the ability supress themselves to live a fake relationshipo under unequivocal rules for a long time.

Urgh, you've just planted a vision of total users and abusers in my head. The guys who do what they gonna do and don't care at all how their actions affect anyone else. It's all about them. Trample on anyone who gets in their way.

I like to think that the men who get through the filter are genuine men who have the same morals and ethics as their partner. The kind of men who will accept the idea of respecting bonds of marriage.

January 6, 2018

But:

Over-talking someone (verbal aggression) is about a show of power, it is about intimidation, it is designed to shut people up and make them subdued because what they are saying is not important.

So I need context and to know whether the OP interrupted because eg. a glass was about to fall off the table and break or whether the OP over-talked him.

January 6, 2018

But:
Over-talking someone (verbal aggression) is about a show of power, it is about intimidation, it is designed to shut people up and make them subdued because what they are saying is not important.

So I need context and to know whether the OP interrupted because eg. a glass was about to fall off the table and break or whether the OP over-talked him.

Over-talking may be viewed as verbal aggression yes, but yelling is on a different level.

In any discussion there is usually over-talking to an extent as both try to put their point across.

Watch any political debate, and see how all overtalk each other, but no-one starts actual yelling, do they? If they did, we would all be expecting the punching to then start.

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He crossed a boundary. Should I forgive him?

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