swazzzz Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 I have been talking to this girl for the past month via instant messaging (we met online) and last night was our first date. During our online chats, she told me that she got married in November 2015 but due to irreconcilable differences, she had to ask for a legal separation and moved back in with her parents in February 2017. I did not ask her if I was her first date after the separation. She is extremely pretty and petite and I was really attracted to her when I saw her first walking towards my Uber. I did the usual things: holding the door open, shook her hand, made small talk. At dinner she spoke about how she met her ex and the circumstances that led to her asking for a separation. I was being a very good listener, evident from the fact that my food finished a lot quicker than her's. She spoke of pain points with her ex and I could not help but empathize with her and even said a few sentences in her support "oh I cannot believe he would say that to you", "Did he really want to dictate the type of clothes you wore to a gym?" etc etc. I really think we had a good connection and even though she did not want to have an alcoholic beverage, she joined me in having a glass of sangria and a rum & coke. On the way home, we spoke as well and it really was a great conversation. It was mainly me doing all the talking (like a counsellor or therapist, telling her that she did the right thing and that she is looking out for herself and her self esteem etc etc). I really wanted to give her a hug at the least though a kiss did cross my mind. But since we were in an Uber, once we reached her place, she said "I had a really good time" and got out of the car. I did not initiate anything else. I did ask her to text me once she got home safe. Once I got home, I texted her if she got home safe. She replied that she did and enquired the same about me. I gave her a call 30 mins later and she seemed to be in good spirits and seemed happy to speak to me. I asked her for a second date the next weekend and she said that she has a family engagement on Saturday which if it falls through, she can see me. I think that was a positive response. We chit chatted a bit after that, I told her that I could feel a genuine chemistry to which she replied "yes.....maybe". I do not want to read too much in to that. Her being a divorcee, makes it a bit complicated. How do women usually feel after they have gone through a divorce? Are they more vulnerable? Are they more prone to making rash decisions and just going out on random dates to bring up their self esteem? If I want to genuinely make a connection with her, do I be a bit more aggressive or do I have to wait till she begins to trust me?
PegNosePete Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 I wouldn't be too worried about her being a divorcee. It doesn't really mean much, especially such a short marriage. But then I am one myself, so I would say that. What I would be worried about a little, is the fact that she talked about her ex so much. That is definitely not first date material. The fact that she seems to be talking to you like a councillor suggests she sees you as a friend rather than romantic interest. Also backed up by her "maybe". Many women especially those with low self esteem, don't know how to say "no" especially on a live voice call. So yeah I'd say carry on and see where it goes, but don't put all your eggs in this basket. 7
GemmaUK Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 Divorcing or not she has clearly come out the other side of a controlling and likely emotionally abusive relationship and not long ago if she only moved out in February. I have no issue at all learning some about a date's past relationships as it gives me a better idea of the person. It doesn't sound like she was saying what a great guy he was but also from your post it doesn't sound like she was name calling (?). The only thing I would be concerned about is that she left him a very short time ago - which may not have given her time to learn about the kind of guy she was with, what to spot in that kind of guy and how to avoid that type in the future. You could end up being a short lived rebound.
elaine567 Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 Is she actually divorced or only legally separated?
Author swazzzz Posted July 31, 2017 Author Posted July 31, 2017 She is divorced, as in she has signed the papers and they have been countersigned by the husband. What is the difference between legally separated and divorced?
PegNosePete Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 She is divorced, as in she has signed the papers and they have been countersigned by the husband. Then she is not divorced. That just means a divorce petition has been signed. There's many more steps before the divorce is complete, and the marriage is legally dissolved. What is the difference between legally separated and divorced? Legally separated formalises the fact that they are no longer living together as husband and wife, but are still married on paper. Divorced is divorced. 1
act00 Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 Divorce can certainly take its toll, but some bounce back easier and some don't have the horrible background. There is a transition, and you worry about rebound, and depending on how bad things are, there can be immense baggage. There's really no guarantee if this woman is ready or not, and I hope the next date goes better. Here's what bothers me about this date - you felt like her therapist. She went into a gripe session about her ex and their marriage and relationship. That's really not something you do, not on a first date. You don't use your date to work through your breakup issues. It's also not cool to trash-talk, even if it's well-deserved. I, of course, wonder what the ex would and what his story is. It's normal to discuss some issues and reasons around divorce or breakup, but usually in the beginning it gets glossed over and is for the most part vague and not a main theme or topic. More comes out during more time spent together, but still, it's in the past and shouldn't be the dominating conversation. If you're being her sounding board as she works through her divorce, that's a bit of a red flag. This complaining session makes me feel like perhaps she isn't ready. She seems entirely too bitter and raw still. I hope future dates don't turn into you being her ear to bend as complains about her ex and their relationship. If I had to sit through that, and not necessarily a marriage/breakup issue, but any of life's dramas or ills to the point I felt like a therapist, I wouldn't want to pursue anything further. Granted, I might go for a second date, but if the date is still really intertwined in this past event, then they're probably not ready and still carry too much baggage. Everyone has baggage, but they really need to lighten the load before pursuing future relationships. 2
Art_Critic Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 What I would be worried about a little, is the fact that she talked about her ex so much. Yeah I agree PNP.. not sure I would have handled that during my dating years but most likely wouldn't have asked her out for a second date, nothing worse than being the first date after a separation and only a body to talk to while she gains her self esteem to date others. Since he has asked her out I would go for it but be careful to watch for her signs..if she breaks dates or the usual that might mean she is just being nice and doesn't want to date the OP.
elaine567 Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 She is still far too involved with her ex if you felt like her therapist. That is not good "chemistry", so I am surprised that you thought it was. She spends the entire time talking about her ex and then you go off on a discourse about what she should do to sort out her life... A free therapy session. Then she uses the word "maybe" which is not exactly a word that fills one with hope... Sounds like she is nowhere ready to date anyone and yes you can stick around and help her heal and then watch her move onto someone else once she gets her self esteem and confidence back, or watch her move right back in with the "abusive" ex when he promises to change, leaving you lost and heart broken... 3
amaysngrace Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 She sounds like a hot mess but if you really like her and want to go there then do these two things: take it slow and let her know you'd be content to just be her friend if that is what will be She'll be so attracted to you you won't even understand why. But you'll like it!
d0nnivain Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 She is still in the healing stage. Her divorce probably won't be finalized for another year. Even once the legalities are resolved, that does not mean her heart will be healed. Breaking up a marriage should mean more then ending a dating a relationship. But then again her marriage barely lasted a year. As judgy as it is, that short term makes me question her decision making abilities. She is on a dating site & did agree to go out with you twice, The fact that she's still talking about her EX & it hasn't even been six months since she moved apart from her husband tells me she is still moving too fast & she's looking for a guy to fill in the empty space left by her husband. 1
CautiouslyOptimistic Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 She is still far too involved with her ex if you felt like her therapist. So true. My last relationship was 10 months with a man who was not at ALL over his ex and her betrayal and I would be a very, very wealthy woman if I had a dollar for every hour I spent listening to him about it.....about the same things over and over and over and over...... In the beginning I thought, "Wow this guy really knows how to communicate his feelings well!" Then it became, "Holy crap, he won't stop talking about his ex and all the ways he was wronged and he is a terrible listener!" ETA: When we started dating his divorce was not finalized yet. They had only been living apart for a few months when we met. 1
Author swazzzz Posted July 31, 2017 Author Posted July 31, 2017 Thank you all for your insights. I really appreciate them. Here are a few of my points: 1) The reason I was playing the therapist is because in our society, a divorce is quite a taboo subject and she has not been able to speak to anybody about it. Not even her friends know that she is separated. I could understand the trauma that she is going through and I really wanted to be helpful to her, without any ulterior motives. 2) It had been an arranged marriage (typical in the Indian culture) so the trauma and taboo is due to the heavy involvement of the parents and the rest of the family. This culture is a bit difficult to explain to someone in a Western culture but I hope you all understand how significant of a role our families play in an arranged wedding. 3) If I had ONE motive, it was that I play the therapist/counsellor/sounding board so that she can see that I am exactly the opposite to her ex and she would see the good in me and possibly be attracted to the fact that I am willing to listen and advise wherever I can. 4) I don't think she is looking for a rebound because she is getting claustrophobic at home and wants to move to the United States for a masters degree. Since I have studied in the US and worked there for over 8 years, she wanted to discuss options with me in terms of lifestyle, costs, job opportunities, education standards etc. 5) She has just come out of a lifeless marriage and I am not expecting her to start being romantic with me right away. I understand that there is a lot of baggage but I am so smitten by her that I genuinely want to help her. 6) But in me wanting to genuinely help her, how do I avoid being friend-zoned? 7) It is true that when two people are able to talk a lot during first dates, it does give a butterfly feeling in the stomach. Which I had. In fact, I regularly complimented her (you have a lovely smile, I like the perfume that you are wearing etc). But if she continues to harp on about her ex, then would you guys advise on me playing the shrink and understanding the foundations of her feelings and trying to correct those foundations? Sounds like a project for a long haul 8) @elaine567 you have very valid points and I may have been putting words in her mouth when I mentioned chemistry. But please understand that I insisted she talk about her ex. There were numerous moments in the conversation where she wanted to ask about me but I ignored that and continued talking about her ex. The time I talked about myself and my life was during the last 30 mins during drinks where I told her about my life, my family etc. I did not want to monopolize the conversation by talking about me and I wanted her to be able to talk it out with someone. Let me know what you guys think
Art_Critic Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 It isn't your job to help her, it's your job to date a healthy her. By helping her and being her therapist you are automatically friendzoned. Why are you so intent on fixing her and helping her, is that a pattern of yours in dating ? 4
kortz Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 Next time you see her make it a date about the both of you, and not about her ex. Make her see what a great guy you are and not what a great councillor you are. As she's going through a divorce, no matter how short of a time she was married, you need to take things a slow and not put pressure on her. Telling her you felt chemistry or anything like that after a first date is not a good idea. Just enjoy your time together and let things develop naturally and then in time you can have a more serious conversation about your relationship if it gets that far. Remember that she has a lot going on in her life causing her stress, dealing with a divorce and family fall out from that is not easy, so any added pressure or stress from you and she'll pull away quickly. 2
Author swazzzz Posted July 31, 2017 Author Posted July 31, 2017 It isn't your job to help her, it's your job to date a healthy her. By helping her and being her therapist you are automatically friendzoned. Why are you so intent on fixing her and helping her, is that a pattern of yours in dating ? That is a very correct inference. I always tend to be the "listener" and have this feeling that women want to be with a listener who they can share things with. Now it can go either way: I can either be a boyfriend or just a "close friend". It is a risk for sure. But I somehow cannot get out of this therapist/listener mode ever.
Author swazzzz Posted July 31, 2017 Author Posted July 31, 2017 Next time you see her make it a date about the both of you, and not about her ex. Make her see what a great guy you are and not what a great councillor you are. As she's going through a divorce, no matter how short of a time she was married, you need to take things a slow and not put pressure on her. Telling her you felt chemistry or anything like that after a first date is not a good idea. Just enjoy your time together and let things develop naturally and then in time you can have a more serious conversation about your relationship if it gets that far. Remember that she has a lot going on in her life causing her stress, dealing with a divorce and family fall out from that is not easy, so any added pressure or stress from you and she'll pull away quickly. Does me talking about her getting an education and supporting her give her "relationship" vibes or "friend vibes"? You are right I do not want to pressurize her but I definitely don't want her to think of me as a counsellor only.
elaine567 Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 . But I somehow cannot get out of this therapist/listener mode ever. Has it worked for you in the past? If so, then you may be good at balancing "listening" with also being good bf material. If however you are continually being friend zoned and can't get past one or two dates then it maybe time to reassess your whole approach. 1
d0nnivain Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 If she has no one else to talk to because she hasn't even told her closest friends, she is no where near ready to date. If she can't even tell people she's divorcing she can't possibly be ready to date. She has a lot to work out before she can be a healthy complete partner. If you like fixer upper projects get involved in flipping houses. Don't try to fix people. It never works. 1
SevenCity Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 A few things you did wrong for future reference: 1) You acted like her therapist and let her talk about her failed RL. Is this what you want her to remember you as? Next time steer the conversation to happier topics. 2) You told her to call you then called her. This is the hallmark of a controlling guy who can't wait. Give her time to process. 3) You barfed your feelings all over her. Feelings are a woman's department. Let her tell you there was chemistry. You had a great time, fine share that. But let her start talking about feelings first. 4) You accepted a "maybe" date. You're a busy guy with other options (or should act like one). Don't act like a guy waiting around for her to maybe make up her mind. Instead say "Oh no problem. Give me a call when you know your schedule and we'll plan something then". But bottom line is she is not ready to date. Even if the divorce was only a breakup she is too focused on it. How would a woman react if you talked about your ex the entire date? But if your intent is to have sex with her then back off a bit and let her come to you. Be cool and have fun. Keep your mouth shut and let her talk but change topics if she is using you as an emotional tampon. In her mind she is seeing controlling tendencies in you already (even if that is not who you are). 2
Author swazzzz Posted July 31, 2017 Author Posted July 31, 2017 A few things you did wrong for future reference: 1) You acted like her therapist and let her talk about her failed RL. Is this what you want her to remember you as? Next time steer the conversation to happier topics. 2) You told her to call you then called her. This is the hallmark of a controlling guy who can't wait. Give her time to process. 3) You barfed your feelings all over her. Feelings are a woman's department. Let her tell you there was chemistry. You had a great time, fine share that. But let her start talking about feelings first. 4) You accepted a "maybe" date. You're a busy guy with other options (or should act like one). Don't act like a guy waiting around for her to maybe make up her mind. Instead say "Oh no problem. Give me a call when you know your schedule and we'll plan something then". But bottom line is she is not ready to date. Even if the divorce was only a breakup she is too focused on it. How would a woman react if you talked about your ex the entire date? But if your intent is to have sex with her then back off a bit and let her come to you. Be cool and have fun. Keep your mouth shut and let her talk but change topics if she is using you as an emotional tampon. In her mind she is seeing controlling tendencies in you already (even if that is not who you are). Great insights!! All I did today was sent her an email about masters programs in the US and sent her a text saying "hope you had a good day today" and she replied "yes but a long one". I sent her a smile emoticon and that was it. I really did not want to give off controlling tendencies, am sorry that I did. As of now, there is no second date because it will only materialize if her family engagement on Saturday does not work out. Do you think I should ask on Friday or Thursday for a confirmation? I will be cool, I promise. Did I really barf all my feelings to her by saying she has a beautiful smile or that we had a chemistry? Damn! What next for me? Don't want to push a physicality aspect to her but yes, I would like to be intimate with her at some point and not in some distant future. Please do not judge me but this is a thought that I had: she is recently divorced, possibly vulnerable, having loads of baggage. Is she someone that is easier to date or is she worse than someone playing hard-to-get?
rightondude Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 man, your experience is so familiar. Reading it as an uninvolved 3rd party gives me clarity on some things I've done wrong in the past. There's nothing wrong with listening, It's my best trait and women absolutely love it. What they don't love is advice (in my experience). That's what gets you in the friend zone. Listen, empathize, acknowledge, but don't tell them what they should do. I don't think you barfed your feelings. It's fine to comment on the smile. Remarking about chemistry; keep it light. BUT you must stop trying to advise, save, or rehabilitate. Be available but not overbearing. 1
SevenCity Posted July 31, 2017 Posted July 31, 2017 Great insights!! All I did today was sent her an email about masters programs in the US and sent her a text saying "hope you had a good day today" and she replied "yes but a long one". I sent her a smile emoticon and that was it. I really did not want to give off controlling tendencies, am sorry that I did. As of now, there is no second date because it will only materialize if her family engagement on Saturday does not work out. Do you think I should ask on Friday or Thursday for a confirmation? I will be cool, I promise. Did I really barf all my feelings to her by saying she has a beautiful smile or that we had a chemistry? Damn! What next for me? Don't want to push a physicality aspect to her but yes, I would like to be intimate with her at some point and not in some distant future. Please do not judge me but this is a thought that I had: she is recently divorced, possibly vulnerable, having loads of baggage. Is she someone that is easier to date or is she worse than someone playing hard-to-get? Dude, you sent her two communications already? In her mind she's thinking "wow, wtf is wrong with this guy?" Back off! You have no date to confirm. She is acting like a girl who is not interested. You are lobbing balls over the net and not giving her a chance to hit them back. Assume you don't have a date and make other plans. I can almost assure you there will be no second date. I know you're excited because she's hot but she is not excited about you. Let it go. If she reaches out the. Ask her about a date, otherwise don't do anything. 2
Author swazzzz Posted July 31, 2017 Author Posted July 31, 2017 man, your experience is so familiar. Reading it as an uninvolved 3rd party gives me clarity on some things I've done wrong in the past. There's nothing wrong with listening, It's my best trait and women absolutely love it. What they don't love is advice (in my experience). That's what gets you in the friend zone. Listen, empathize, acknowledge, but don't tell them what they should do. I don't think you barfed your feelings. It's fine to comment on the smile. Remarking about chemistry; keep it light. BUT you must stop trying to advise, save, or rehabilitate. Be available but not overbearing. Even if the advice is not related to her ex husband? My approach was strictly "go girl, power to you for standing up for yourself, he treated you like you did not exist and you came out of a lifeless marriage in great time because you stood up for yourself". My advice was only on how she should pursue studying for her masters after a gap of 6 years and talking about universities and job prospects etc. But maybe I should hold off on the advice part for now. I should just let her talk to me now and maintain a friendly air from now till Friday? Man what I hate is how you go through this infatuation phase when you go on a first date and you are absolutely smitten by her. It is like I cannot wait to hear from her and I am constantly checking my phone. I am 29 years old but am behaving like a teenager. Any pointers? I so wish she would just call me and tell me just how amazing I am and that she can't wait to see me. Man I could really use a feel-good factor right now
Author swazzzz Posted July 31, 2017 Author Posted July 31, 2017 Dude, you sent her two communications already? In her mind she's thinking "wow, wtf is wrong with this guy?" Back off! You have no date to confirm. She is acting like a girl who is not interested. You are lobbing balls over the net and not giving her a chance to hit them back. Assume you don't have a date and make other plans. I can almost assure you there will be no second date. I know you're excited because she's hot but she is not excited about you. Let it go. If she reaches out the. Ask her about a date, otherwise don't do anything. I don't think 2 messages is over-kill. And am fairly certain that she will let me know when she would like to go out on a second date. I did not give off any creepy, WTF vibes trust me! I am not waiting for her, I have enough on my plate. I do understand that I should ease on the texts for now, but when is a good time for me to ask if we are "on" for this coming weekend?
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