"If my child were to turn out gay, I'd disown his/her"

[Michelle ma Belle]

I don't even know where to begin.

 

I am currently dating a wonderful man for quite a while now. For the very first time since my divorce, I can visualize a very real future and a happily-ever-after with this man. Even...dare I say...marriage. I never thought the day would come where marriage would be something I'd ever consider again but there you have it.

 

Good, right?

 

I thought so, however, during one of our marathon chats yesterday afternoon, the topic of homosexuality came up in light of the Pride Festivals taking place across the country and the world.

 

I mentioned to my partner that my oldest niece (24 years old) is in love with a woman for the first time in her life and has never been happier. She does not now nor has ever identified as gay/lesbian and up until a year ago, had been engaged to marry a man she had been dating for 6 years which she broke off. She now has found herself madly in love with someone who happens to be a woman.

 

This weekend was her first time being at Pride Toronto and loved the whole experience.

 

I have a very close relationship with my niece(s) and although she's kept her dating a woman a secret to the rest of our family until just recently, including her parents (my brother), she revealed it to me very early on in their relationship. She feared no one would understand. Something I scoffed at thinking there wasn't a family more accepting than our own. As it turned out, she was right. Whatever beliefs and pride I had about our family being very liberal and open and accepting of people regardless of gender, race, religion or sexual orientation, came to a abrupt and disappointing halt as they all try to make sense of my niece and her new same-sex relationship. Calling it merely a 'phase' and have refused to acknowledge the relationship as sincere and legitimate.

 

 

I shared the story of my niece and my family with my man thinking nothing of it. Thinking he would lament along with me of what transpired despite it being a beautiful thing.

 

I couldn't have been more wrong.

 

To give you some background, my man is very well educated 6'2" strapping black man who holds a Masters in Computer Engineering, raised in the UK, worked all through Europe before moving to Canada a year ago. He comes from a Christian family although like me, no longer subscribes to any one particular religion and instead sees himself as very spiritual rather than religious. A match.

 

During that conversation, he revealed to me is own aversion to homosexuality. Not only that it makes him uncomfortable but that he would disown his own child if he/she revealed they were gay. To say I was was dumbfounded would be an understatement. I felt my heart drop into my stomach.

 

If that wasn't enough to send me reeling, he said that would never happen to his child as he would program his child to "not to be gay"!

 

Honestly, I had no words in that moment. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I couldn't get off the phone fast enough to try and process what I just found out. Needed time to figure out how I was going to handle this and how to move forward after hearing this bombshell.

 

It's one thing for a man to feel uncomfortable regarding gay sex, as if being okay with it somehow threatens their own sexuality , particularly a proud black man, or to not wish it upon your child if only because of the challenges that being 'different' brings in our society BUT to outright declare that a man would disown his own blood or that being gay is something you can easily fix with adequate programming is beyond disturbing to me particularly as someone who believes in and has championed for LGBT rights my whole adult life.

 

I just don't know how to move past this with him.

 

I was up all night thinking about things and if I could realistically be with someone whose opinions regarding homosexuality were so polar opposite to my own. This isn't simply a matter of me preferring pulp in my OJ and he preferring there weren't any pulp after all.

 

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is apart from just venting. Sorry about that. I know that I need to have a very serious conversation with him tonight. Hash it out and lay it all out on the table once and for all before making a decision about the future of our relationship.

 

My fear is that if we can't find a middle ground regarding this subject, I don't think I can continue with this relationship, and that is heartbreaking

 

I guess this just proves that being well educated, well bred, well traveled doesn't mean you can't also be completely and utterly ignorant.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Michelle ma Belle

[CautiouslyOptimistic]

Yikes. Tough one! Does he actually have kids? Would the two of you be having children together?

[Michelle ma Belle]

Yikes. Tough one! Does he actually have kids? Would the two of you be having children together?

 

We will NOT be having any children of our own but he does have a child from a previous long term relationship who is still very young.

 

Technically, his take on homosexuality as it relates to HIS child won't directly affect ME since we wouldn't be having any children together but it's the principal of the thing that I can't seem to overlook.

 

I don't know how to be with someone who is even capable of such a thing.

 

Ugh.

[WhirlwindGuy]

Could it be that he was just being "blustery"...I know people like this that talk crap, but truly don't mean it...they sort of do it for reaction, play to their audience, etc..its an act in some sense.

 

 

Not that this would excuse it, but perhaps he was just being a blow hard in the moment and if he understood your aversion to this line of thinking, he would try and see your side and lighten his aversion some?

 

 

Just a thought...otherwise, I despise this type of personality myself and couldn't be with someone that held these viewpoints. I feel like someone who felt that strongly about this would have keyed you in with other deeply held convictions much earlier though. This is why I think it may be more of a blustery reaction vs. a real one.

[CptInsano]

[...]

I guess this just proves that being well educated, well bred, well traveled doesn't mean you can't also be completely and utterly ignorant.

 

I wouldn't call him utterly ignorant, it is one of the areas where religion and a conservative viewpoint will manifest themselves. My guess is that this won't be the only sore topic once you drill a little deeper into his worldview.

 

The question becomes whether you can tolerate somebody who has such a different frame of mind. I doubt it was just an outburst, you don't come up with the views for no reason.

[SammySammy]

 

I know what's going on here. Two things:

 

1) The church

 

Though your man does not adhere to any particular religion, the Black church has historically been a place of solace and a source of strength through difficult times. As such, it has a significant impact on Black families. In general, the Black church has taken a hard line against homosexuality often taking a strict biblical interpretation of it being abominable.

 

However, homosexuality has been a part of the Black community and even an intricate part of the church. Worship leaders, choir directors and such are often flamboyantly gay and - while the church has a hard line stance against homosexuality - they are tolerated and many times celebrated as an important part of the church.

 

It's very similar to the Japanese principle of honne and tatemae - outside face and inside face. What we say and what we really feel. Public stance and what we really do.

 

2) Hypermasculinity

 

Black men are often expected to be and are treated as if we are more masculine than other men. Many feel the pressure to live up to that standard. Which leads to something called hypermasculinity. Athleticism, toughness, aggression, and a host of other things that include a hard anti-gay stance. The toughest guys on the planet can't be gay, right?

 

What's interesting is, like with the church, there is an unspoken acceptance and tolerance of homosexuality. Many of those outwardly hard guys are secretly gay themselves. The phenomenon of the "down low brother". Honne and tatemae all over again. Outwardly hard, but probably has a gay brother or cousin who is treated like everybody else.

 

Of course, there are exceptions but this is what I think goes on in general.

 

I'm willing to bet your man has never discriminated against any gay person. Much less his own blood.

 

It's one of those cultural things you have to learn to understand.

 

It's not as serious as you're making it. Definitely not worth staying up all night over.

[Michelle ma Belle]

Could it be that he was just being "blustery"...I know people like this that talk crap, but truly don't mean it...they sort of do it for reaction, play to their audience, etc..its an act in some sense.

 

 

Not that this would excuse it, but perhaps he was just being a blow hard in the moment and if he understood your aversion to this line of thinking, he would try and see your side and lighten his aversion some?

 

 

Just a thought...otherwise, I despise this type of personality myself and couldn't be with someone that held these viewpoints. I feel like someone who felt that strongly about this would have keyed you in with other deeply held convictions much earlier though. This is why I think it may be more of a blustery reaction vs. a real one.

 

This is my hope as his admission was done in somewhat of a light/casual manner rather than one that is reminiscent of someone pontificating from their soapbox.

 

I already suspected he was somewhat uncomfortable with homosexuality and even more so with transgender based on previous conversations we've had but again, it was often lighthearted. I took his responses as being a typical male reaction on a subject that often makes men uneasy as I said in my opening post. I've known many men who talk like this but when push comes to shove as far as homosexuality and their own child, they would love them regardless.

 

I fear I may have misjudged his remarks and that scares the hell out of me.

I pride myself on being extremely discerning regarding the company I keep and that includes being on the same page about important issues. This flies in the face of all that.

[Michelle ma Belle]

 

I know what's going on here. Two things:

 

1) The church

 

Though your man does not adhere to any particular religion, the Black church has historically been a place of solace and a source of strength through difficult times. As such, it has a significant impact on Black families. In general, the Black church has taken a hard line against homosexuality often taking a strict biblical interpretation of it being abominable.

 

However, homosexuality has been a part of the Black community and even an intricate part of the church. Worship leaders, choir directors and such are often flamboyantly gay and - while the church has a hard line stance against homosexuality - they are tolerated and many times celebrated as an important part of the church.

 

It's very similar to the Japanese principle of honne and tatemae - outside face and inside face. What we say and what we really feel. Public stance and what we really do.

 

2) Hypermasculinity

 

Black men are often expected to be and are treated as if we are more masculine than other men. Many feel the pressure to live up to that standard. Which leads to something called hypermasculinity. Athleticism, toughness, aggression, and a host of other things that include a hard anti-gay stance. The toughest guys on the planet can't be gay, right?

 

What's interesting is, like with the church, there is an unspoken acceptance and tolerance of homosexuality. Many of those outwardly hard guys are secretly gay themselves. The phenomenon of the "down low brother". Honne and tatemae all over again. Outwardly hard, but probably has a gay brother or cousin who is treated like everybody else.

 

Of course, there are exceptions but this is what I think goes on in general.

 

I'm willing to bet your man has never discriminated against any gay person. Much less his own blood.

 

It's one of those cultural things you have to learn to understand.

 

It's not as serious as you're making it. Definitely not worth staying up all night over.

 

This is what I was hoping to hear.

 

Thank you for shedding some light on this. I have come to understand that being in an interracial relationship means it comes with many challenges including the differences in each other's culture and how differently we were raised at home and in the church.

 

He is an amazing man with a huge heart and an incredibly giving spirit. The very things I found most attractive about him and love to bits! I wouldn't have ever given him the time of day had I not seen he had such beautiful qualities. Which is why this has caught me off guard I suppose.

 

This post has helped a great deal and will help when we talk this evening.

 

Thanks again!

[DKT3]

Michelle, you seem to grasp the black culture somewhat....what you have to understand is homosexuality is simply not widely accepted in our culture. Right or wrong.

 

Let me ask you a question, how many black men have you seen that you've questioned Thier sexuality? Very few right? Gotta run I will explain later

[Michelle ma Belle]

Michelle, you seem to grasp the black culture somewhat....what you have to understand is homosexuality is simply not widely accepted in our culture. Right or wrong.

 

Let me ask you a question, how many black men have you seen that you've questioned Thier sexuality? Very few right? Gotta run I will explain later

 

Indeed.

 

I look forward to your response!

[RecentChange]

Uggggggh my stomach would have dropped as well Michelle.

 

What I have a hard time believing... is that someone could be so, closed minded and ignorant on this subject, yet liberal / open minded / accepting when it comes to others. Maybe bigotry could be laser focused? Not in my experience.

 

This would send me reeling. Because while I always "pick my battles" and really do not enjoy arguing. This is not something I would be able to back down from, and I have a feeling would trickle over into other subjects.

 

Sorry to be a wet blanket but I would be seriously bummed out to learn something like this about someone I loved.

[Gaeta]

 

I know what's going on here. Two things:

 

1) The church

 

Though your man does not adhere to any particular religion, the Black church has historically been a place of solace and a source of strength through difficult times. As such, it has a significant impact on Black families. In general, the Black church has taken a hard line against homosexuality often taking a strict biblical interpretation of it being abominable.

 

However, homosexuality has been a part of the Black community and even an intricate part of the church. Worship leaders, choir directors and such are often flamboyantly gay and - while the church has a hard line stance against homosexuality - they are tolerated and many times celebrated as an important part of the church.

 

It's very similar to the Japanese principle of honne and tatemae - outside face and inside face. What we say and what we really feel. Public stance and what we really do.

 

2) Hypermasculinity

 

Black men are often expected to be and are treated as if we are more masculine than other men. Many feel the pressure to live up to that standard. Which leads to something called hypermasculinity. Athleticism, toughness, aggression, and a host of other things that include a hard anti-gay stance. The toughest guys on the planet can't be gay, right?

 

What's interesting is, like with the church, there is an unspoken acceptance and tolerance of homosexuality. Many of those outwardly hard guys are secretly gay themselves. The phenomenon of the "down low brother". Honne and tatemae all over again. Outwardly hard, but probably has a gay brother or cousin who is treated like everybody else.

 

Of course, there are exceptions but this is what I think goes on in general.

 

I'm willing to bet your man has never discriminated against any gay person. Much less his own blood.

 

It's one of those cultural things you have to learn to understand.

 

It's not as serious as you're making it. Definitely not worth staying up all night over.

 

What a great post.

 

My boyfriend is a black man. I have heard things come out of his mouth that made me pause then ask are you homophobic? He believes being homosexual is a choice, that people get up one morning and decide to be gay. Of course it's ridiculous but it's so deep ingrained in him since childhood I cannot deprogram him. He's also a man that is cultivated that traveled the world and lived in very liberal cities like Geneva and Paris, you'd think he worked passed that already, but no.

 

He's not my first black boyfriend and they all have this same phobia in common for the reasons you are listing here.

 

Michelle: I think your boyfriend would think twice before disowning his children. It's one thing to say it and another to do it. Your boyfriend is programmed to be homophobic and what comes out of his mouth does not necessarily comes out of his heart. Many of us have said *I would never accept this and that* and when finally we are faced with those events we take a different route. The route of acceptance.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Gaeta

[Michelle ma Belle]

Uggggggh my stomach would have dropped as well Michelle.

 

What I have a hard time believing... is that someone could be so, closed minded and ignorant on this subject, yet liberal / open minded / accepting when it comes to others. Maybe bigotry could be laser focused? Not in my experience.

 

This would send me reeling. Because while I always "pick my battles" and really do not enjoy arguing. This is not something I would be able to back down from, and I have a feeling would trickle over into other subjects.

 

Sorry to be a wet blanket but I would be seriously bummed out to learn something like this about someone I loved.

 

Exactly!!

 

And this is the reason why I have been up all night worrying and thinking about how to handle this.

 

It's a subject I absolutely cannot sweep under the rug.

 

And that goes for how my family is reacting to the news about my niece too! Out of respect for my niece I am holding my tongue with my family for the moment as this is HER fight, not mine, but it's eating me up inside as well and am terribly disappointed in all of them.

 

The whole idea that they all put on this great face and show of support for people over there but when it's happening in their own family they suddenly turn into the very people they've spent years criticizing and condemning. I feel like I don't even know them anymore.

 

I can't even begin to express how much I despite such hypocrisy.

[Poutrew]

It always amazes me when I see an attitude which I can only, kindly, call hypocritical. Here you are, so tolerant of something - and really, it can be anything, not just homosexuality. And, now you are ready to leave your 'love' because he doesn't agree lockstep with your own beliefs. Seriously, Michelle, after you have a more serious talk about this with him, and he tells you how serious he is, you are going to walk, aren't you? There is no live and let live with divergent attitudes and beliefs, is there? Perhaps you should just do non-serious dating, as there is always going to be something serious popping up eventually...

[rushed]

When you told him the story about your niece did he have any sympathy for her like, "Oh, man, that must have sucked for your niece," or did he go straight into his homophobic, "If my kid were..."?

[Michelle ma Belle]

What a great post.

 

My boyfriend is a black man. I have heard things come out of his mouth that made me pause then ask are you homophobic? He believes being homosexual is a choice, that people get up one morning and decide to be gay. Of course it's ridiculous but it's so deep ingrained in him since childhood I cannot deprogram him. He's also a man that is cultivated that traveled the world and lived in very liberal cities like Geneva and Paris, you'd think he worked passed that already, but no.

 

He's not my first black boyfriend and they all have this same phobia in common for the reasons you are listing here.

 

Michelle: I think your boyfriend would think twice before disowning his children. It's one thing to say it and another to do it. Your boyfriend is programmed to be homophobic and what comes out of his mouth does not necessarily comes out of his heart. Many of us have said *I would never accept this and that* and when finally we are faced with those events we take a different route. The route of acceptance.

 

Thanks Gaeta,

 

So is this a matter where you both agree to disagree then? What else do you find yourself on opposite sides with no meeting in the middle?

 

I'm not an unreasonable person at all. And like RecentChange, I have learned a very long time ago the value of picking my battles so as to avoid unnecessary conflict about the little things. As far as I'm concerned, this isn't a little thing particularly since I have a niece in a same-sex relationship as well as have many homosexual friends.

 

It's not exactly something we can run away from or avoid.

[Timshel]

Hypocrisy, Lord have mercy....Michelle come on, we'd have to shoot everyone and then ourselves.

 

Trouble at hand, don't fret over what your family does or does not do for your niece. You do, you're ok with it so make it ok with her.

No need for an uprising as usually in these situations it is only a domino effect and so it will stop with you.

 

As for your bf, as much as I want to tell this sob to hit the pavement (joking)...the truth is, he will be alright.

 

There isn't any way he cares that much unless you ask his opinion and then he's full on. He doesn't care, or let me put it this way...he cares as much as you do.

 

It's amazing how much a man will have some decency when he is expected to.

[Michelle ma Belle]

It always amazes me when I see an attitude which I can only, kindly, call hypocritical. Here you are, so tolerant of something - and really, it can be anything, not just homosexuality. And, now you are ready to leave your 'love' because he doesn't agree lockstep with your own beliefs. Seriously, Michelle, after you have a more serious talk about this with him, and he tells you how serious he is, you are going to walk, aren't you? There is no live and let live with divergent attitudes and beliefs, is there? Perhaps you should just do non-serious dating, as there is always going to be something serious popping up eventually...

 

I'm well aware of the fact that we will not always agree on every bloody thing. In fact, that would be insanely boring. I'm not an unreasonable idiot. Don't patronize me.

 

I rarely start threads about an issue I need help with so the fact that I'm here pouring my heart out in great detail should show you that I'm desperately looking for advice and insight on how to keep this relationship going even if my partner holds steadfast on his views about homosexuality.

 

But thanks for your compassion and understanding

[Gaeta]

Thanks Gaeta,

 

So is this a matter where you both agree to disagree then? What else do you find yourself on opposite sides with no meeting in the middle?

 

I'm not an unreasonable person at all. And like RecentChange, I have learned a very long time ago the value of picking my battles so as to avoid unnecessary conflict about the little things. As far as I'm concerned, this isn't a little thing particularly since I have a niece in a same-sex relationship as well as have many homosexual friends.

 

It's not exactly something we can run away from or avoid.

 

Yes some topics we have to agree to disagree. If it's not something directly affecting our lives then we just agree to not discuss it. Even though my bf has some pretty homophobic opinions he has homosexual friends (males) whom he visits and enjoys socializing with. As long as his opinion does not become gestures of prejudice toward other people and it remains *his personal opinion* we'll be ok.

 

We find ourselves on several opposite ends of the spectrum. Often it's a black versus white debate. Example the gay parade this weekend in Toronto, it was all over the news. He'll go on and on about why do they need to have a parade, etc. Then the gay parade was disrupted by members of black lives matter but that's ok to him, The blacks should have a parade but not the gay.

 

How long have you been dating?

[preraph]

I could never move past that. It hurts my feelings when I think about all the sweet gay guys I used to know who all died young and that I miss so much and were such wonderful friends. I guess we are all intolerant about something, but I mean, how does this hurt him? If he's that threatened by it, he may even have some fears about his own sexuality. To me, this is even worse than someone who hates animals.

[GunslingerRoland]

This is a tough one, because even though it seems like common sense that all people's sexuality should be their own private decision, the fact is that for hundreds, thousands of years it wasn't that way, and it's only started to move towards that in very recent years.

 

People don't just magically become tolerant and change their beliefs overnight. Especially if they haven't had exposure to something different themselves.

 

It always amazes me when I see an attitude which I can only, kindly, call hypocritical. Here you are, so tolerant of something - and really, it can be anything, not just homosexuality. And, now you are ready to leave your 'love' because he doesn't agree lockstep with your own beliefs. Seriously, Michelle, after you have a more serious talk about this with him, and he tells you how serious he is, you are going to walk, aren't you? There is no live and let live with divergent attitudes and beliefs, is there? Perhaps you should just do non-serious dating, as there is always going to be something serious popping up eventually...

 

Being tolerant of intolerance doesn't make you a more tolerant person. And yes I know how hard that sentence is to read.

[Michelle ma Belle]

Yes some topics we have to agree to disagree. If it's not something directly affecting our lives then we just agree to not discuss it. Even though my bf has some pretty homophobic opinions he has homosexual friends (males) whom he visits and enjoys socializing with. As long as his opinion does not become gestures of prejudice toward other people and it remains *his personal opinion* we'll be ok.

 

We find ourselves on several opposite ends of the spectrum. Often it's a black versus white debate. Example the gay parade this weekend in Toronto, it was all over the news. He'll go on and on about why do they need to have a parade, etc. Then the gay parade was disrupted by members of black lives matter but that's ok to him, The blacks should have a parade but not the gay.

 

How long have you been dating?

 

Very interesting. Thanks again Gaeta.

 

I'm starting to believe this is could be a black vs white debate more and more. I suspect it will be one of many since he does possess many of the characteristics both you and MidnightDream outlined in your previous posts regarding black men and their culture.

 

Apart from a handful of casual relationships with black men, I've dated and been in serious relationships with very liberal, very open minded very white men which means we've always been on the same side of some very controversial and hot topics.

 

I haven't ever had to agree to disagree about big issues before with someone I love deeply so this is definitely a new experience for me.

[Art_Critic]

I think most people never have to deal with facing the reality of having a gay son or daughter and have the belief that they would handle it this way or that way... but....

 

In reality they don't know how they would handle it, (including yourself) until you are face to face with an issue like that. We all would hope, (including myself) that compassion would win out in the end...

 

I would like to add however, a person is allowed their own beliefs about any subject.. including your BF.. who is to say what he feels is wrong and should change and do an about face to meet your feelings on the subject ?

 

He hasn't pushed his belief on this issue onto you and making you change the way you feel, so why is it okay that he change the way he feels about this subject ?

 

I think in the end you are both 2 different individuals and have totally separate thoughts about all kinds of things, who gets to decide who is right or wrong and who gets to compromise.

 

I hope you work this out, dating is about finding out what you like and dislike in a potential partner and if this item is a deal breaker then I'm sorry..

It seems to me that unless he has dealt with it then you don't know how he will truly handle it and it would be a shame to throw away something because you think he will say or do something you can't tolerate in some future date that may never come.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Art_Critic

[Timshel]

The only way to have any impact on intolerance is to be tolerant.

Some people may have a light bulb moment and think.....umm, they didn't like my thoughts, so now I'll change.

 

The only way to transfer love is to give it. I know, shenanigans, let their fool azz figure it out.

If love is present then it moves....it moves.

[SammySammy]

Black masculinity is something most people don't have to deal with and don't have to try to understand. Something that is not easily explained to others who don't face the same societal forces.

 

The importance of the appearance of masculinity. In many ways, it's a self-preservation issue and best understood when looked in a historical context.

 

Everything is not so cut-and-dried when other factors are at play. When there are nuances to behavior. When things may not be what they seem.

 

Do what you feel is best.

 

Just don't be surprised when he meets your neice and he treats her well though he may have said something completely different.

 

Actions speak louder than words. Which is helpful to know when we delve into why people do the things they do and why they say the things they say.