Marriage on the rocks...again

[wmorris]

My wife and I have been married 4 yrs, we are in our 40's, we have a 13yo boy, whom is my step-son. My wife and have often had difficulties with communication. Over the course of our marriage she has considered the idea of divorcing probably 10 times, mainly when things are not going well in her personal life. She time and time again tells me we need to talk about a few things, it always ends up being the same conversation; we dont communicate well, we dont have enough sex, I dont respect her, I am always in a bad mood... Now I will say this, our sex life has changed mainly because of work schedules and simply being tired. The communication thing is another story, when we are home we talk, not in depth about anything in particular, however I ask how her day was and am genuinely interested, among other things has to say. When it comes to me, she shows zero interest in my day or really what I am doing in general. Often times I will text her during the day asking how her day is tell her I love her multiple times a day, I typically dont get a response except if she needs something. What I find interesting is she finds all the time in the world to text her friends or coworkers yet I get nothing back.

Now, the other thing is, she thinks I am not attracted to her and often pushes me away when I try to touch her or to be affectionate, she wants none of it. So, I am stuck in this loop of me being he reason our marriage is failing yet I am constantly trying to put in the work, she is not so much. Every three months or so this conversation will come up where she says she doesnt know what to do because we dont talk or have sex, she starts yelling, crying and simply loses it. I mainly try and let her finish, assuring her I love her yet she claims I do not and am a mean person that doesnt respect her. All of this false, I do everything for her and the boy, no I am not perfect I make mistakes often but I feel I am just being constantly threatened with divorce, it really sucks. She will not seek counseling with or without me. What do I do?

[Gaeta]

When you are stuck in a loop you need professional help.

 

You said it yourself you do not know how to communicate so who will teach you? You need to get outside help, someone that can teach you how to communicate, someone that will act as a refery when you speak about your issues.

 

All those attempt at fixing things without knowing what you're doing is like the blind leading the blind. Again, marriage counseling.

[wmorris]

Thanks for the reply, she will simply never go to counseling. I cant force her. I am openly communicating daily but I get nothing in return. Its almost as if she is projecting her own incapabilities on me. As stated, I make mistakes but I have certainly made efforts to explain in depth, numerous times, if there is no work put in, there will be no change.

[salparadise]

Gosh, this sounds exactly like my ex-wife.

 

- regular emotional blow ups (splitting episodes)

- never satisfied and blames the other

- black and white thinking/feeling, all good, all bad

- emotional reasoning

- emotional instability

- would not return calls as a passive aggressive way of disrespecting me

- believes other person needs to change based on her excoriating criticism

- refuses to go to counseling separately or together

- threatened divorce often to get the upper hand in arguments

- frequency of sex*

 

*I had the opposite problem here. My ex wanted sex when she wanted it, but that was only once a month, just before her period. Eventually I cut off her off because she rejected me all other times. A power struggle of sorts.

 

My wife is a high functioning BPD. I think you should take a look at Downtown's 18 Warning Signs and see how much of that describes your wife.

 

I eventually called her bluff on the divorce. She thought it was a perfect club and that she could use it as much as she wanted to control me. Wrong. I went to individual counseling myself and figured out just how miserable that relationship actually was. I withdrew emotionally and refused to engage or appease. I let do the miserable routine all by herself. It wasn't pretty but it was necessary. We finally ended up divorcing after quite a few years in a dysfunctional relationship.

 

For you... it's a process. Get into counseling asap. Change the way you deal with her and quit appeasing. Take care of yourself and don't buy into the it's-all-your-fault BS. Next time she throws a fit (called splitting), sit and watch without engaging, showing any emotion, or reacting in any way. It's only effective if you respond.

 

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I wish I could save you from it, but you have to work through the stages and decide what to do on your own. Definitely go to counseling. Tell us if the 18 Warning Signs strikes a chord with your situation.

Edited June 15, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[wmorris]

Unfortunately the link didnt work but I have considered this about her for some time. When she drinks she becomes an awful person to deal with, argumentative, cocky, makes horrible decisions, the worst comes to the surface. She binges on alcohol at times. I know this doesnt relater entirely to BPD but the behavior is there. Yes, her moods swing from all good to all things are horrible and it needs to end. Often when she is freaking out I just silently sit there and dont give her a response. My thought is, if I do this that anger and rage stays right there in front of her, she can have it, that way when she gets nothing out of me, she doesnt know what to think. Its an awful feeling. She also binge shops on Amazon or discount stores when shes alone. I honestly have no clue what she buys, I just see empty boxes in the recycling and when I ask her, she tells me its none of my business..ugh.

[preraph]

What first made her think you didn't find her attractive?

[wmorris]

Well, considering I have never cheated on her or have never had a need to consider it, I am not certain. Thats a great question. I think her insecurities lead her to many things. One night before we were married she went out with some friends and ended up not coming until 5 am. Not a huge deal except I found out she had been with another man, she claims they just kissed and passed out. Turns out, there was more because he called her phone so she could find it to come home, she told me she was at her friends house passed out alone, I am fairly certain she was at his house not far away. Next day, she had a few mesages on her phone from him which she showed me, well, over the next few days they exchanged over 200 messages while she was at work, she deleted them all except the ones I saw, which was 7, she denies it to this day. She claims she did it because she feels like she didnt deserve me, self-destructive action I guess.

Going back to the original question: everytime I tell her she looks nice or sexy, its the same response, "shut up, you dont mean it."

Edited June 15, 2017 by wmorris

[salparadise]

I meant to ask if she had any compulsions/addictions. Mine had a credit card habit. She preferred brick and mortar retail. We had closets full of crap we'd never need.

 

I paid off her cards several times with the agreement that she would cancel the accounts. She didn't. She would start charging again, transferring balances to new card offers for temporarily lower interest rates. Eventually it would get to where she couldn't afford the minimum payments. About the forth time I declined to fix it for her. I came home one day and there was a guy there from a mortgage company wanting me to sign forms –– she had applied for a home equity line of credit to pay off the cards. I refused to sign for that as well. Man, the sh*t hit the fan. She was livid.

 

I'm not sure why the link didn't work - I've copied links the same way many times. I'll just post the 18 Warning Signs again here. Keep in mind, these are NOT DSM diagnostic criteria. You can google those.

 

1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor comment or infraction;

2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"

3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;

4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude (e.g., not appreciating all the 3-hour trips you made to see her for two years) and a double standard ;

5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;

6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;

7. Low self esteem;

8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums or cold sulking that typically start in seconds and last several hours;

9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;

10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;

11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);

12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;

13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"

14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;

15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;

16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);

17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and

18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.

[preraph]

She knows the trust is gone and the relationship is gone with it. She may not get that you are attracted to her because if it was in reverse and you cheated and she lost trust of you, she might never want to have sex again, but guys aren't usually like that.

[Gr8fuln2020]

@wmorris.

 

I have to admit, I have zero idea what you found attractive about this woman to date and then marry her. I am also at a loss as to how you did not see some of the signs while you were dating. As for her discretion, that should have been enough for you to see that she was not worth continuing a relationship with.

 

I have to be blunt, but I do not believe she respects you nor ever had. I suspect her marrying you had little to do with love then convenience, perhaps? Helping with her child?

 

I have not reason to believe she has any legitimate diagnosis of any kind. Some of her behaviors can also be very calculated. I don't believe she wants to believe what you are really feeling and dismisses you b/c she doesn't want to be in the relationship. She may be intentionally pushing you away and creating angst to finally force YOU to make the decision to leave that she is unwilling, at the moment, to do. In the end, if YOU decided enough is enough, she will feel vindicated.

 

Sorry, but I believe she is trying to drive a wedge.

[wmorris]

Thanks for posting them. Yes, she does have addictions, however she keeps a lot of things to herself. I am sure I am not aware of all of them. It sounds your situation was insane, literally! Wow. She is up and down and up and down. When I come home from a long day at work I never know what to expect, I always walk on eggshells. Dont get me wrong, I stand my ground but when just when I let my guard down, its almost like she knows to get at me with something. She was once mad at me for days for not folding the laundry correctly. I know there is more to it but that set her off. I cant fet her to seek help, she is too stubborn and often times I feel she a single person who is married. I am useful in some ways and the. she pulls the "I am an independent woman, I dont need your help BS" making me feel absolutely horrible about trying to honestly help her with things. This **** is all over the place.

[SammySammy]

Why do you tolerate this from her?

 

What makes you stay?

[wmorris]

@wmorris.

 

I have to admit, I have zero idea what you found attractive about this woman to date and then marry her. I am also at a loss as to how you did not see some of the signs while you were dating. As for her discretion, that should have been enough for you to see that she was not worth continuing a relationship with.

 

I have to be blunt, but I do not believe she respects you nor ever had. I suspect her marrying you had little to do with love then convenience, perhaps? Helping with her child?

 

I have not reason to believe she has any legitimate diagnosis of any kind. Some of her behaviors can also be very calculated. I don't believe she wants to believe what you are really feeling and dismisses you b/c she doesn't want to be in the relationship. She may be intentionally pushing you away and creating angst to finally force YOU to make the decision to leave that she is unwilling, at the moment, to do. In the end, if YOU decided enough is enough, she will feel vindicated.

 

Sorry, but I believe she is trying to drive a wedge.

 

So what you are implying is, her vindication is the ultimate ending? Perhaps you are correct. Since she never makes the final decision, it will have to be me. Such a sad and awful feeling this is.

[wmorris]

Why do you tolerate this from her?

 

What makes you stay?

 

I was always taught to never give up, its a blessing and curse. Letting go is losing the child I have come to grow and love too. I understand its toxic and I need to make a decision but these are huge decisions. I guess my patience has got the best of me.

[SammySammy]

I was always taught to never give up, its a blessing and curse. Letting go is losing the child I have come to grow and love too. I understand its toxic and I need to make a decision but these are huge decisions. I guess my patience has got the best of me.

 

But, you've given up on your happiness. Your peace of mind. Dignity. Self-respect.

 

You let those go a long time ago when you let this woman disrespect you and treat you like crap.

 

You deserve better. You deserve to be treated well.

 

You have to decide that's as important as a failing marriage. A marriage that she obviously doesn't care about.

 

I decided long ago that I'd rather be alone before I let any woman mistreat me. I'm responsible for my own well-being. And will not sacrifice it for someone who doesn't love or respect me.

 

You have to decide if you are important to you.

[wmorris]

Thank you, you are right. I just dont understand how somebody who is treated with respect can project all of their crap onto another person. She treats everyone else so kindly and well, but me, not so much. It puzzles me daily, hourly, by the second. I am not even claiming to be a victim , but I really dont know how else to describe it.

[JuneJulySeptember]

Gosh, this sounds exactly like my ex-wife.

 

- regular emotional blow ups (splitting episodes)

- never satisfied and blames the other

- black and white thinking/feeling, all good, all bad

- emotional reasoning

- emotional instability

- would not return calls as a passive aggressive way of disrespecting me

- believes other person needs to change based on her excoriating criticism

- refuses to go to counseling separately or together

- threatened divorce often to get the upper hand in arguments

- frequency of sex*

 

*I had the opposite problem here. My ex wanted sex when she wanted it, but that was only once a month, just before her period. Eventually I cut off her off because she rejected me all other times. A power struggle of sorts.

 

My wife is a high functioning BPD. I think you should take a look at Downtown's 18 Warning Signs and see how much of that describes your wife.

 

I eventually called her bluff on the divorce. She thought it was a perfect club and that she could use it as much as she wanted to control me. Wrong. I went to individual counseling myself and figured out just how miserable that relationship actually was. I withdrew emotionally and refused to engage or appease. I let do the miserable routine all by herself. It wasn't pretty but it was necessary. We finally ended up divorcing after quite a few years in a dysfunctional relationship.

 

For you... it's a process. Get into counseling asap. Change the way you deal with her and quit appeasing. Take care of yourself and don't buy into the it's-all-your-fault BS. Next time she throws a fit (called splitting), sit and watch without engaging, showing any emotion, or reacting in any way. It's only effective if you respond.

 

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I wish I could save you from it, but you have to work through the stages and decide what to do on your own. Definitely go to counseling. Tell us if the 18 Warning Signs strikes a chord with your situation.

 

Why did you marry her?

[salparadise]

Why did you marry her?

 

I was young and naive, both about her issues and my own. We had been together several years and it seemed like the right thing at the time. We were at that age (early thirties). We were strongly attached to one another. The disorder doesn't look the same in the beginning. They idealize and intuitively know how to give you things you need. You know something's not quite right. There's a care-taking aspect for the non-BPD person. You feel that their issues are based in not having been loved properly (which is true), and you believe that you can love them enough that it will be okay. There is enmeshment. Not stuff you're consciously aware of until things change a few years later and you start studying psychology to figure out what the hell is going on.

 

Downtown can probably add to this.

[Gaeta]

Wmorris: There is no dignity and honor in staying in a bad marriage.

 

My ex-husband was controlling and abusive. His abuse started 1 year after our wedding, he first hit me I was 8 months pregnant. I divorced after 15 years because I felt I was honoring my vowes by staying.

 

I divorced him 18 years ago and I still regret giving 15 years to this marriage. I really wasted the best years of my life being miserable.

 

4 years is enough. Wasting another 4 years will only keep you, keep her, and keep that child in a miserable environment.

 

My daughter was 12 when we divorced, she adapted just fine and grew up to be an intelligent kind young woman.

 

You are responsible of your happiness. Leave.

[Downtown]

WMorris, I agree with Sal that you are describing many of the classic warning signs for BPD. Importantly, Sal and I are not claiming that your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit strong traits of it. I caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy).

 

At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums.

 

I never know what to expect, I always walk on eggshells.

If she is a BPDer, the slightest infraction (real or simply imagined) can result in you being reclassified from "all good" to "all bad." The result is that you will oftentimes feel like you're walking on eggshells around her to avoid triggering her anger. This is why the #1 best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused partners) is called Stop Walking on Eggshells.

I am just being constantly threatened with divorce.

It is common for BPDers to berate and threaten a spouse with divorce -- but be unwilling to leave permanently. Indeed, this is so common that the #2 best-selling BPD book is titled, I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!

 

I mainly try and let her finish, assuring her I love her yet she claims I do not.

If she is a BPDer (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum), she is filled with self loathing that she's been carrying inside since early childhood. Until she learns how to love herself, she cannot believe that YOU love her. Even if you convince her for a few days that you love her, she will be convinced that your love will vanish as soon as you discover how empty she is on the inside.

 

I am not certain [of why she thinks I find her unattractive].

If she is a BPDer, she is incapable of trusting you for any extended period of time. Until she learns how to trust herself, she will be unable to trust you. Moreover, this means you can never trust her -- because she can turn on your at any time, as you've seen on numerous occasions.

 

I cant get her to seek help, she is too stubborn.

If she exhibits strong and persistent traits of BPD, the problem is not her stubbornness but, rather, her lack of self awareness. By their very nature, BPD and the other PDs almost always are invisible to the people suffering from them. This is why BPD is said to be "egosyntonic," which means it is in such perfect harmony with the needs and desires of the ego that the BPDer sees nothing wrong with this distorted way of thinking. And this is why it is rare for a high functioning BPDer to seek therapy.

 

Her moods swing from all good to all things are horrible and it needs to end.

As Sal already explained, this all-or-nothing view is called "black-white thinking." If your W is a BPDer, she is too immature to be able to handle strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, and other gray areas of interpersonal relationships. Hence, like a young child, she will categorize everyone close to her as "all good" (i.e., "white" or "with me") or "all bad" (i.e., "black" or "against me"). And she will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in just ten seconds -- based solely on a minor comment or action.

 

She was once mad at me for days for not folding the laundry correctly.

Like I said, a BPDer will recategorize you from one polar extreme to the other -- in just ten seconds -- based solely on a minor action (real or imagined). Because a BPDer has been carrying enormous anger and hurt deep inside since childhood, you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Instead, you only have to say or do some trivial thing that TRIGGERS the anger that's already there. This is why BPDers can flip from one mood to the other in just ten seconds.

 

She binges on alcohol at times.

Most people exhibiting an alcohol use disorder do NOT have full-blown BPD. Having full-blown BPD, however, greatly raises the risk of abusing alcohol. A recent randomized study found that 57% of full-blown BPDers have an alcohol abuse disorder during their lifetimes. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

 

She also binge shops on Amazon or discount stores when she's alone.

As with binge drinking, binge shopping is a warning sign for BPD because "Impulsive and often dangerous behaviors" is one of the 9 defining symptoms for BPD.

 

She pulls the "I am an independent woman, I don't need your help BS" making me feel absolutely horrible about trying to honestly help her with things.

Because BPDers have a weak, unstable self image, they don't have a strong sense of who they are. They therefore seek out partners having a strong, stable personality who can provide the missing self identity. Yet, when you do exactly that -- i.e., provide the stability, grounding, and sense of direction -- the BPDer quickly starts feeling like you are controlling and suffocating her.

 

Hence, even when you are trying to help, a BPDer will feel you are trying to control her. Indeed, my BPDer exW felt that way whenever I would give her a surprise present. She felt I was controlling her by being the one to decide WHAT to buy. I tried to correct the situation by surprising her with a purchase she had earlier said she wanted.

 

But then she resented me for being the one to decide WHEN we bought it. Hence, I resorted to giving her a generous monthly allowance (4 times what I was spending on myself) so she could decide both what and when to purchase. The result, of course, was that she resented me for insisting on a monthly limit for HOW MUCH was spent on nonessential items.

 

As occurred with Sal and his W, my W was a hoarder. She accumulated $15,000 worth of fabric bolts and sewing machines -- together with a $3,500 piano. None of it was actually used. It thus served only to validate her false notion that she somehow was "the seamstress" and "the musician." In 15 years, she managed to make only one vest, one dress, and a cat collar with the 3 sewing machines. And she played the piano less than 5 hours total.

 

She has considered the idea of divorcing probably 10 times.

The repeating cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back is one of the hallmarks of a BPDer relationship. A BPDfamily survey of about 460 such relationships found that nearly a fourth of them (23%) went through 10 or more complete breakup/makeup cycles BEFORE finally ending for good. About 40% of the BPDer relationships experienced at least six breakup/makeup cycles before ending. And 73% had three or more breakup/makeup cycles before finally ending. See "Results" at BPDfamily Breakup/Makeup Poll.

 

What do I do?

If you're not ready to divorce her, I join Sal and Gaeta in recommending that you obtain professional advice. Specifically, I suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your stepson are dealing with. Moreover, if most of the 18 warning signs sound very familiar, I suggest you read my more detailed description of them in Rebel's Thread -- and read Sal's insightful description of what it's like to live with a BPDer wife for 23 years in his March 2016 post. If those descriptions raise questions, I would be glad to join Sal and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, WMorris. Edited June 16, 2017 by Downtown

[salparadise]

If you're not ready to divorce her, I join Sal and Gaeta in recommending that you obtain professional advice. Specifically, I suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself

 

I think, actually as certain as I am of my own name, that it's critically important for you to get into therapy immediately. Choose an experienced LPC (PhD) with knowledge and interest in dealing with BPD relationships. Ask someone in the profession for several names. Don't go light on this –– you need help whether you realize it or not right now. You give up pieces of yourself in these relationships and become significantly diminished. You need to start getting your mojo back right now, independently of her. It's a process of individuation wherein you exit from the enmeshment and start to become whole again.

 

Reading helps too, but nothing is going to get you back on track without therapy, imho. Based on all that you written, I think it's safe to say that this is what's going on. It parallels my experience with amazing consistency and detail.

 

There are a lot of threads on here about BPD; use advanced search to find Downtown's posts and you'll learn a lot. Buy the book Stop Walking on Eggshells.

 

Understand that this isn't just HER problem. You've changed as a result of being trampled, and you almost certainly have some codependency to have gotten into this to begin with. The focus needs to shift away from her behavior (you can't fix it) to reestablishing YOUR sense of self. Therapy is critically important.