GunslingerRoland Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 I think what I'm hearing is that the trip she went on is your ultimate dream. She was able to go on it, and you weren't. And you may never be able to, and if you do, it won't be the same because she's already done it. I'd argue that going on a vacation like that can go so many directions that there isn't only one way to enjoy it, and she can have just as much fun with you the next time. I'd also argue that your life doesn't stop at 26 and that you can have fun adventures throughout your life if you so choose. Anyway, it seems like this has very little to do with the actual sex. Maybe you need to talk to her, and tell her you have no problem with her having sex with other guys, but going on dates with them, is the line for you? 2
GunslingerRoland Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 Yeah, I've been thinking about that. I think the way I'm seeing it is that everyone has a day-to-day version and their more adventurous versions. Having only the day-to-day of anyone would be a glass half empty scenario for me. Maybe some people see it as a glass half-full. Honestly I think if you look at life, as a couple of once in a life time adventures, and then everything else is day to day monotony you'll hate life. You need to figure out how to get some sense of enjoyment into your day to day life. 1
Author DJOkawari Posted June 15, 2017 Author Posted June 15, 2017 I think what I'm hearing is that the trip she went on is your ultimate dream. She was able to go on it, and you weren't. And you may never be able to, and if you do, it won't be the same because she's already done it. I could go without her. I just wanted to do this stuff with her - that's where the options become limited. That's all. I'd argue that going on a vacation like that can go so many directions that there isn't only one way to enjoy it, and she can have just as much fun with you the next time. I'd also argue that your life doesn't stop at 26 and that you can have fun adventures throughout your life if you so choose. Yeah, I agree. It doesn't end now, but I rarely see people in their 30's or 40's hostel hopping and going on adventures. Even if I did it in that way, I wouldn't be meeting people my age - the experience would be completely different. I think maybe she could have just as much fun with me. She's seeing an entire region of the world, but there are many other regions that people travel to. Of course, I don't think she and I will have 4 months off that coincide but we can try to tackle them in smaller increments. As for repeat experiences, yeah I think in a person's mind they'll view an isolated island in Chile like an isolated island in Thailand - few are really considering the biological or geographical differences when they think of the experience they are having but maybe her experiences will make our experiences better. See how much dream backtracking I had to do there to make the conclusion "she could have just as much fun with me" true? Anyway, it seems like this has very little to do with the actual sex. Maybe you need to talk to her, and tell her you have no problem with her having sex with other guys, but going on dates with them, is the line for you? Well I think when conceptualized an open relationship, I was thinking of her going to concerts with other guys. I was thinking of her going to dinner with them. I was thinking of her seeing me later and us talking about these experiences. I was somewhat naive and didn't imagine her living out these fantasies with other guys. Though all of this discussion, I was unable to find out where the true issue was. I think this is it. Honestly I think if you look at life, as a couple of once in a life time adventures, and then everything else is day to day monotony you'll hate life. You need to figure out how to get some sense of enjoyment into your day to day life. Yeah. That really hits home. That's a good point. My reflex is to assure you that my life is enjoyable, but I'm going to ruminate over this more. Thank you for the idea!
Maggie4 Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 1. open relationship not working for you. 2. you are not doing enough together if you're calling these activities "fantasies". I enjoy adventure travel, but I think people who have the most fun, are those who do it a lot locally, regularly. People go to museums and go horseback riding as tourists. But there are museums and horses nearby, yet some people only do fun things on vacation. Why? An older couple I know, compete as a team on scavenger hunts on the weekends. They still know how to have fun together. Not everyone can afford the time and money to travel to distant lands. You need to plan activities nearby. I just bought myself a kayak, hehehe... 2
Maggie4 Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 Oh and as for the relationship, remember loss of opportunities for sharing experiences is her loss too. But she isn't worried, and maybe that's at the heart of your discontent. This thing is supposed to cut both ways. If she was afraid to lose you, or if she feels a loss after you dump her saying "bye bye boring girl", she might think, oh he never got to know the fun side of me, he never got to see me in that outfit, never got to make treasured memories of us. But she isn't worried, even after you brought it up. 1
salparadise Posted June 15, 2017 Posted June 15, 2017 (edited) A lot of good points have been made. You have talked about not feeling special, etc. I won't get into the nuances of feelings, just a broader theory of why it doesn't feel right. Men are biologically hard wired to prefer a woman they can trust not to have sex with other men. This is true even though the man may desire variety. The reason is that women conceive internally, so if she has sex with other men it diminishes the odds of his genetic proliferation. Over time, men whose wives are exclusive produce more of their biological offspring, thus the preference becomes ubiquitous, as the inverse extinguishes. This is the same biological process that makes sex desirable to begin with... the genes of men who don't desire sex, and those that females do not find attractive, tend to extinguish. The same is not true when you reverse the genders. Females never have to worry about whether the offspring they give birth to are biologically their own. This is why men are more concerned with physical infidelity and women are more concerned with emotional infidelity. You have made a conscious choice to override your biological proclivities by allowing your partner to have sex with many other men, and she's naturally enjoying and taking full advantage of it. There is a conflict between what feels right to the amygdala vs. the cortex where the conscious decision to be okay with a non-mongaamous mate likely was made. It's being expressed through feelings of incongruence. In a practical sense, an open relationship is a better deal for the female. As you alluded, women can get as much sex as they want without even trying, whereas men have to expend tremendous effort and still may not have much success. The notable exception is the small number of males that all women want to sex, without regard for any kind of reciprocity. For those guys, the advantage of non-monogamy is on par with that of an average female. I think you are experiencing feelings and realizations which are simply the result of your experiment. If you love your partner, and if she's willing to practice monogamy, perhaps in time you could let go of how you're feeling now (therapy). If she's not interested in monogamy, or you believe she could not even if she tried, then perhaps it's time to integrate what you learned in your next relationship. I totally get how you're feeling. I could never do it. Edited June 15, 2017 by salparadise 3
Author DJOkawari Posted June 16, 2017 Author Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) 1. open relationship not working for you. 2. you are not doing enough together if you're calling these activities "fantasies". I enjoy adventure travel, but I think people who have the most fun, are those who do it a lot locally, regularly. People go to museums and go horseback riding as tourists. But there are museums and horses nearby, yet some people only do fun things on vacation. Why? An older couple I know, compete as a team on scavenger hunts on the weekends. They still know how to have fun together. Not everyone can afford the time and money to travel to distant lands. You need to plan activities nearby. I just bought myself a kayak, hehehe... Some valid points. I think I'm capable of an open relationship but the more I read here, the more I realize I am being neglected. And, yeah it would be ideal if we did more things like this, but she almost always just wants to study (she's done exceptionally well in life using this strategy, so I don't blame her). Also, a portion of our connection is academic - we aren't in the same fields but that's our approach to the world. Hence, the hyper-logical open relationship. We do go to warehouse parties, hang out with friends, art shows, and museums, but yeah I think riding on motorbike with her is entirely consigned to fantasy, let alone the abandoned islands, talking the night away, beach sunrises, etc. Oh and as for the relationship, remember loss of opportunities for sharing experiences is her loss too. But she isn't worried, and maybe that's at the heart of your discontent. This thing is supposed to cut both ways. If she was afraid to lose you, or if she feels a loss after you dump her saying "bye bye boring girl", she might think, oh he never got to know the fun side of me, he never got to see me in that outfit, never got to make treasured memories of us. But she isn't worried, even after you brought it up. Yeah, she just isn't concerned. That's a good point. From her perspective we'll "have fun" whenever we do get around to doing these things. Here's a micro example of which there are many for me (it's silly): naturally she has a very good physique. She never works out while she is here, but she still looks quite good (and I tell her this). Since she has more free time, she's been doing 30 minutes of yoga each day for over a month now. She's well exceeded that "very good physique" and I was complimenting her and she doesn't understand why I would feel like I'm missing out on something if she decides to stop working out as soon as she gets back. It's silly, I know, but yeah even that small perk is left to her other men and not me. Side note: she does do yoga here, but not consistently enough to get her vacation results. Side note 2: I work out every single day - this isn't a double standard. Though my condition would decay much faster than her's if I stopped. I think she does care about me, but clearly we're incompatible on a lot of these considerations. She doesn't find what I find important, important at all and a lot of what she has done has been at a level on insensitivity that I could not imagine. She's really quite empathetic normally - it's one of her hallmark features. I suppose she's somewhat forgotten about me. The notable exception is the small number of males that all women want to sex, without regard for any kind of reciprocity. For those guys, the advantage of non-monogamy is on par with that of an average female. I may fall into that category, but the amount of effort required remains. I'm too busy to date right now - I don't feel like it and so, I will not meet anyone until I make that change in my life. Plus, it isn't really about number of sexual partners, it's about having a meaningful relationship with her. I've seen lots of people argue that meaning is found in the intangibles of "connection" and "commitment" but the narrative we weave is important for me as well. Who doesn't care about the story of their romance? That point aside, I think you're spot on. I am not receiving something worth the "incongruence" I'm dealing with. The writing is on the wall. Edited June 16, 2017 by DJOkawari
mortensorchid Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 So you said you're in an open relationship yet I see in the short and long version what happens in every open relationship : jealousy. One person gets jealous of the other - in this case, you are jealous because whoever she is with on this trip is getting to both have her as well as the best version of who she is. You're jealous of that. And with that in mind, the jealousy is why open relationships do not work out. There is such a thing as doing some swinging here and there (LTRs where both parties are happy with each other yet bored) in order to keep the LTR fresh and exciting, but that's another thread... If you choose to stay in this path, it's only going to get worse for you. Fact.
Miss Peach Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 I've tried both and I feel I am more monogamous in nature. But I've found a lot of people on LS don't get non-monogamy when I've posted things regarding being in an open relationship. I've found the podcast Multiamory very helpful. They have one specifically on jealousy and one of the reasons they bring up is FOMO which is what I think you might be experiencing a bit of. It might be worth listening to to understand what you're grappling with. IRL I've men people who love that lifestyle and others who realized it's not for them. You may be realizing you're in the latter camp as I did. I can do it in a casual circumstance but it gets harder for me once more feelings are in play. 1
DKT3 Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 It's simple, this is a for now relationship, so for now enjoy it. This isn't your future wife. Envy, you're busting butt for your future and she's off living now. I believe that is the issue, nothing more no deeper meaning. Even if she woke up an hour before you put on full make-up and sexy night stuff you would still have this issue. 1
smackie9 Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 Ya if you were wealthy, could afford to travel to exotic lands, then you could have what she is having, and more of her as well.....but you are just some guy she is dating to have as someone who is reliable, waiting at home, convenient. You two sharing rent? You two are way too different....this is out of balance, and getting her in a tanned bikini clad body is not going to solve your problem. 1
Author DJOkawari Posted June 17, 2017 Author Posted June 17, 2017 So you said you're in an open relationship yet I see in the short and long version what happens in every open relationship : jealousy. One person gets jealous of the other - in this case, you are jealous because whoever she is with on this trip is getting to both have her as well as the best version of who she is. You're jealous of that. And with that in mind, the jealousy is why open relationships do not work out. There is such a thing as doing some swinging here and there (LTRs where both parties are happy with each other yet bored) in order to keep the LTR fresh and exciting, but that's another thread... If you choose to stay in this path, it's only going to get worse for you. Fact. Yeah, I agree with you on this. It is jealously, but it doesn't have to be. I'm posting to gain further understanding. I see no difference between myself and other people who successfully live this free, rewarding lifestyle beyond the fact that I haven't figured it out yet. I've tried both and I feel I am more monogamous in nature. But I've found a lot of people on LS don't get non-monogamy when I've posted things regarding being in an open relationship. I've found the podcast Multiamory very helpful. They have one specifically on jealousy and one of the reasons they bring up is FOMO which is what I think you might be experiencing a bit of. It might be worth listening to to understand what you're grappling with. IRL I've men people who love that lifestyle and others who realized it's not for them. You may be realizing you're in the latter camp as I did. I can do it in a casual circumstance but it gets harder for me once more feelings are in play. Thanks for the podcast! Yeah, I think this got a lot more challenging when she began to travel and I was stuck doing work. Before that, we would both go on dates and see others but we were in the same city, we'd see each other a lot. I think I am currently in the camp that this is really hard for me, but I'm don't feel restricted by that label, I think I could figure this out. It's simple, this is a for now relationship, so for now enjoy it. This isn't your future wife. Envy, you're busting butt for your future and she's off living now. I believe that is the issue, nothing more no deeper meaning. Even if she woke up an hour before you put on full make-up and sexy night stuff you would still have this issue. Yeah, you're right, you're right. All of this is accurate. You probably get this, but I'm much more existentially happier finishing my work and achieving my goals than I'd be on the beach. So, I don't think I made the wrong choice in not going. And, yeah, I was getting ahead of myself relationship-wise. We've never considered getting married or anything of the sort. Some other girl will be the one I consider "special". Ya if you were wealthy, could afford to travel to exotic lands, then you could have what she is having, and more of her as well.....but you are just some guy she is dating to have as someone who is reliable, waiting at home, convenient. You two sharing rent? You two are way too different....this is out of balance, and getting her in a tanned bikini clad body is not going to solve your problem. To be honest, I could be there. I choose to work on my thesis - I have the funds and inclination. I think I will go travel when I have time and I'll have some great experiences too. We don't share rent. It's somewhat the opposite, I was travelling for a while, while doing my work and I met her and we really hit it off. I was just travelling around, visiting friends, and doing my research and she liked me enough that she offered me to sleep at her place regularly so we could see each other. In that sense, she was paying my rent Also, we're pretty similar. I guess the biggest difference is that she doesn't feel like these experiences she's having will dampen them when we have them together. Maybe that's a big difference.
Author DJOkawari Posted June 17, 2017 Author Posted June 17, 2017 (edited) Thank you everyone for helping me through this. My thoughts have really progressed a lot from the conversation and ideas here. Here is where I am at now, I'd be grateful if I got a bit more help: As I've been over, my gf is invited to do tons of free and exciting things when she show up places. I've realized part of being a male who is interested in females is that, I'll never be invited to do any of those things. No one wants to give me free things, show me cool things, or tries to blow my mind sexually upon meeting me. I can only have the adventures I create for myself. For example: I could get the equipment to camp on the beach and invite a girl. I could pay to stay at a resort and spoil some random girl but never will I get an experience I didn't plan out. No girl will try to woo/give me amazing experiences like guys do for my gf. Is this something other people have realized? I'm pretty jealous of the idea that I'll never have that entire category of experiences. I can't see how I won't compare poorly (in some aspect) against all of these people and experiences she's having. For example: an incredible erotic oil massage this guy gave her. I've given her oiled massages before, but she's made a point of telling me how much more incredible the one she received recently was. I would like to continue to give "oil massages" but it's demotivating to think you're pretty bad at it compared to what she has had. I don't particularly feel inferior to guy in general, I'm pretty great - I'm specifically talking about not feeling like giving an oil massage to my gf now (which is obviously analogous to a lot of activities). I guess I should just ignore that feeling? How do people deal with this? Given, that I can go travel while she won't be able to over the next 6 years, I shouldn't feel guilty and I should just go and essentially do whatever I feel like. I think she would endorse this. It's freeing to think that. My point isn't that I should "get back at her", my point is that I shouldn't think of my relationship or the context of my actions when doing them. It seems callous, but I think that's what an open relationship is about. Here is my final conclusion: Rather than be concerned with what I cannot do compared to anyone ( compared to the guys and what they do with my gf and also compared to my gf in general) I should just be excited about what I can experience. Similar to the Ultimatum Game - I'm being offered $30 and I should grab it, regardless of how my partner or someone else is getting $70. That's still $30 more than I would have had. I should concern myself with only myself. If it is my first time doing an experience with her, I should appreciate it as the experience in the context of my life, rather than noticing she's not that amazed at what is occurring. If I'm giving her an oil massage, I should not focus on how she thinks it is inferior to the one she received a while ago but rather on if I am enjoying myself as I give it. Essentially I should embrace quantity of experience (with whomever, however, and without context), rather than quality. If I wanted to do these things with a particular person, I should be in a monogamous relationship (and accept fewer total experiences in that case) Is that how people think in open relationships? Edited June 17, 2017 by DJOkawari
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