BettyDraper Posted June 14, 2017 Posted June 14, 2017 Women. Next time the man you want to marry says, I dont need to get married, its only a piece of paper....ask them, is your paycheck just a piece of paper? Why not burn it up. Is that mortgage you signed just a piece of paper? Why not tear it up? Its not just a piece of paper. Its a legal binding contract to protect both of you, and your kids. Its a financial contract. It protects the children, not only for each parent, but should something happen to either one, it gives them Social Security protection. If you are a stay at home Mom (a very valuable job) with kids and not married, you have no retirement Social Security. You deserve that. Women, dont devalue yourself. Dont let him call you his fiance, or even worse, his wife, if you arent married. He has to EARN the right to be able to do that. You are worth it. Women, dont move in, set up house, clean and cook, and even worse, have his kids, and then expect him to marry you. In doing that you have devalued yourself with no bargaining power at all. He wont marry you then, why should he? You've given him all that marriage gives him, with him not giving you anything. Why would you do that??? Women. Value yourselves! I agree with all of this. I don't understand women who give a man everything without being married and then complain when the men don't want to marry them. It's been proven that children have a better chance of thriving when their parents are married. One caveat is cohabitation as a step towards marriage. My husband asked me to move in on the condition that we both viewed it as a prerequisite to marriage. He proposed within less than 3 months of cohabitation. 1
Clockwork Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 It is just a piece of paper...............to the people who think it is a piece of paper. I never understood how this would catch on so well. In a way it is like a non-committed man's dream for women to eat this up. Now, as for me I married my wife after less than two years of being together. I didn't waste any time. But marriage mattered to me and to her, and still does. For the women that stick with the bum that can never commit despite the fact that they (the women) want marriage and children...........I'm sorry I don't get that guy. 4
Mrs. John Adams Posted June 16, 2017 Posted June 16, 2017 While I agree with your premise here, let's be honest with ourselves about what marriage really is today. It's not "to protect both of you", it's really to protect the woman. Most states today are no-fault, and, end of the day, it's about who earns more, which, statistically speaking, is usually going to be the man. Because of the lack of fault basis in D, the protection of a M is very one sided, it's protecting the woman from ANY actions, not just her husband's bad actions. Let me give you my personal situation. I make several multiples of my W's income. She's also a very high income earner and works very hard, so let me make sure not to take anything away here, but I just happen to be in a high paying field and make a lot more. She cheated on me last year. How did being married "protect me" in any way? She can still walk with 1/2, even though she was the "at fault" party. If I had cheated, that would be "fair", but, reverse situation, it's not fair at all, IMHO. Marriage today, for men, is a real dangerous game to play. You cheat, she leaves with 1/2, she cheats, she leaves with 1/2. And, in practice, 1/2 is typically a lot more than 1/2 for a lot of settlements. There's almost no advantage granted to men by marriage anymore and still a lot of advantages granted to women. It's not at all surprising that men aren't keen to marry given these "new rules", if you value yourself as a man, it's very difficult to enter into such a one sided contract. I didn't/couldn't and my W and I have a pre-nup to make things a bit more reasonable should we D. Because, let me tell you, the thought of her cheating and then filing for D and, through no fault of my own, me having to pay alimony to her so that she might maintain the lifestyle my income allowed us to live is simply not fair. I can't see how anyone would think that is fair. And yet, it's the law of the land, and many men today (and a few women, yes) are standing in court right now having a big settlement handed down to the woman who broke their heart by cheating on them. If the situation were reversed, we'd call it gender discrimination and it would be illegal. Things they are achanging. Even with no fault states...marriages less than 10 years in length generally do not get alimony or spousal support. Many folks now get prenuptials....which also protect assets....and most couples now get 50/50 custody of children which also means much of the time that even child support is not granted...unless one of the spouses makes a lot more than the other one. I work with a woman who actually pays her ex husband child support....and years ago that was never heard of. In your case....I seriously doubt your wife would get 50% except for the things you have accumulated together....since your marriage. In my case....I hae 45 years invested in this marriage...and he has always made much more money than i do. Is it not fair that i would get 50% ? I have been his partner since i was 17. In this day and age...it is becoming more common for the wife to make more than the husband...like with the girl i work with. My best friend divorced a few years ago....they had been married 30 years. He was unemployed and had cheated. He got half of her retirement. Just to show you....it is not always gender based anymore.
SmartDude Posted June 17, 2017 Posted June 17, 2017 Yes it is a peice of paper that is issued to you by the state. It informs the newlyweds that you can't just break up because you feel like it. You have to get permission from the government to end your relationship.
Popsicle Posted June 17, 2017 Posted June 17, 2017 It is just a piece of paper...............to the people who think it is a piece of paper. I never understood how this would catch on so well. In a way it is like a non-committed man's dream for women to eat this up. Now, as for me I married my wife after less than two years of being together. I didn't waste any time. But marriage mattered to me and to her, and still does. For the women that stick with the bum that can never commit despite the fact that they (the women) want marriage and children...........I'm sorry I don't get that guy. This sums up how I feel about it too.
Woggle Posted June 17, 2017 Posted June 17, 2017 Yes it is a peice of paper that is issued to you by the state. It informs the newlyweds that you can't just break up because you feel like it. You have to get permission from the government to end your relationship. But people do divorce all the time just because they feel like it. If a relationship really is over then splitting should be easy with very little hassle. If you need the government to keep you together you don't have much of a relationship in the first place. 2
MJJean Posted June 17, 2017 Posted June 17, 2017 Marriage is a total commitment spiritually, socially, and legally. It's far from a mere " piece of paper". Partial commitment wouldn't be enough. As a friend said " I am not a long term girlfriend." 2
Dirt Posted June 18, 2017 Posted June 18, 2017 A marriage license is a secular contract between the 2 parties and the government. Nothing more and nothing less. Any other meaning added to what is a marriage is not enforceable by the government. 2
aurelius99 Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 Women. Next time the man you want to marry says, I dont need to get married, its only a piece of paper....ask them, is your paycheck just a piece of paper? Why not burn it up. Is that mortgage you signed just a piece of paper? Why not tear it up? Its not just a piece of paper. Its a legal binding contract to protect both of you, and your kids. Its a financial contract. It protects the children, not only for each parent, but should something happen to either one, it gives them Social Security protection. If you are a stay at home Mom (a very valuable job) with kids and not married, you have no retirement Social Security. You deserve that. Women, dont devalue yourself. Dont let him call you his fiance, or even worse, his wife, if you arent married. He has to EARN the right to be able to do that. You are worth it. Women, dont move in, set up house, clean and cook, and even worse, have his kids, and then expect him to marry you. In doing that you have devalued yourself with no bargaining power at all. He wont marry you then, why should he? You've given him all that marriage gives him, with him not giving you anything. Why would you do that??? Women. Value yourselves! Marriage protects women, not men. Men have all the liabilities in a legal marriage. Even the children don't benefit as much from marriage as women do. Not sure what you're talking about.
Arieswoman Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 A99, Marriage protects women, not men. Men have all the liabilities in a legal marriage. Even the children don't benefit as much from marriage as women do. I disagree. Marriage protects children not women. I earned more than my exH and paid most of the bills. We had no children. When we divorced because of his cheating I still had to give him half of everything, which really stuck in my craw. Marriage didn't protect me or my hard-earned assets did it?
lucy_in_disguise Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 Marriage protects the lower-earning spouse and any children. It is pretty ignorant to assume that is always the wife. Men are still out-earning women (if you want to talk about discrimination, consider starting with that) but marriages where the wife has a higher income are no longer a rarity to be ignored, but a significant minority. The purpose of child support and alimony is to recognize that decisions made within a marriage- such as which careers to pursue or how much time for one of the spouses to stay at home with the kids- are joint decisions, the benefits and costs of which should be jointly shared. Not sure why this is such a difficult concept for some to understand. Even with the "pro-women" divorce laws, there are many studies that show divorce has a higher negative financial impact on women, especially women with children. If you have issues with the concept of a partnership in which decisions are made jointly and costs and assets are shared- don't get married. Or if it's specifically your own future assets you're worried about- pick a partner who earns more and has no interest in staying home to raise kids. 4
niji Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) Marriage protects the lower-earning spouse and any children. It is pretty ignorant to assume that is always the wife. Men are still out-earning women (if you want to talk about discrimination, consider starting with that) but marriages where the wife has a higher income are no longer a rarity to be ignored, but a significant minority. THIS. It's about protecting the spouse who earns less, presumably because they've sacrificed their earning power to contribute more to raising children. I don't know how pertinent it is to make it a male/female issue. Maybe in 2017. But I doubt it will be as pertinent in 2027, 2037, or 2117. At my workplace ~2/3 of my male coworkers' wives work full-time and have similar salaries as theirs. Two of my female coworkers' husbands are full-time stay-at-home dads. I know all too well the dynamics of male/female earning will take a long time to balance out, but I'm optimistic that eventually it will. In an ideal world where all people can just do whatever they're capable of, I don't see why women should be expected to stay at home more than men (see my real-life observations above - this is also true for many women in my field, their husbands stay home with the kids). Many people will say that's just an unrealistic expectation, but in the Western World not too long ago, it was unthinkable that women and people of minority races could vote - how dare they That's why posts like this no longer ring true for women, only for the lower-income party. As women, please encourage your daughters to pursue her own career before settling down with a man; it is so much more liberating. If all females earned as much on average as males, we wouldn't even have this topic in the first place, but it's rather, "He needs to convince me to marry him. What's in it for me?" Ever since I was little, I could never imagine depending on a man's income, seeing how many women have suffered because of it (I grew up in a country with no laws protecting anybody in a marriage). Edited June 19, 2017 by niji 2
sandylee1 Posted June 19, 2017 Posted June 19, 2017 Good advice OP. I totally agree. The number of women who are miserable with a man who won't commit, then they have kids with them and play the part of a wife is crazy. What always gets me is the "I'm not quite ready for marriage yet", but then he's happy to have a child. The very least a woman should do if she has a child whilst not married, is give the child her own surname. It saves a lot of hassle later on. I hear so many saying they only gave his surname, because marriage was discussed and agreed. Yeah right! Bottom line is... If you aren't getting what you want from a relationship... End it. Simple! 4
wmacbride Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 I'm an aficionado of "vintage", and one of the things I enjoy is watching old social guidance films from the last century. There are some about marriage that explain how it is more than just a piece of paper, and how both the future husband and wife should do a lot of soul searching to make sure they were ready for all marriage entails, and also if their choice was the right person for them. I really believe that couples can get so caught up in the whole "wedding" excitement that they forget that the wedding is just one day out of thousands. They spend months planning their wedding, but barely give a moment's thought to the thousands of days that will come afterwards. 1
Gaeta Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 Women. Next time the man you want to marry says, I dont need to get married, its only a piece of paper....ask them, is your paycheck just a piece of paper? Why not burn it up. Is that mortgage you signed just a piece of paper? Why not tear it up? Its not just a piece of paper. Its a legal binding contract to protect both of you, and your kids. Its a financial contract. It protects the children, not only for each parent, but should something happen to either one, it gives them Social Security protection. If you are a stay at home Mom (a very valuable job) with kids and not married, you have no retirement Social Security. You deserve that. Women, dont devalue yourself. Dont let him call you his fiance, or even worse, his wife, if you arent married. He has to EARN the right to be able to do that. You are worth it. Women, dont move in, set up house, clean and cook, and even worse, have his kids, and then expect him to marry you. In doing that you have devalued yourself with no bargaining power at all. He wont marry you then, why should he? You've given him all that marriage gives him, with him not giving you anything. Why would you do that??? Women. Value yourselves! Sounds like a speech from the 70's. Why do you assume all women want a marriage? Why assume all women earn less than men? A smart woman does not need marriage. She needs a good notary. I earn more and have more assets than my BF. A marriage would jeopardize all of it. Would you tell my BF to insist on marrying me otherwise I don't respect him? or I devalue him? Let me tell you how a woman respect and value herself and it has nothing to do with marriage. A woman that respects herself gets herself an education! she gets her own job, her own financial security and her own assets. 3
JuneL Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 For me, getting married is the ultimate commitment that you want to be with each other for the rest of your lives (as long as you stay married). Of course, it comes with a bunch of legal rights.
Author Whodatdog Posted June 20, 2017 Author Posted June 20, 2017 Sounds like a speech from the 70's. Why do you assume all women want a marriage? Why assume all women earn less than men? A smart woman does not need marriage. She needs a good notary. I earn more and have more assets than my BF. A marriage would jeopardize all of it. Would you tell my BF to insist on marrying me otherwise I don't respect him? or I devalue him? Let me tell you how a woman respect and value herself and it has nothing to do with marriage. A woman that respects herself gets herself an education! she gets her own job, her own financial security and her own assets. Do you have reading comprehension issues? No where did I say all women want marriage. I said "Next time the man you want to marry says". Nowhere did I say I assume all women earn less then men. 1
JuneL Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 Do you have reading comprehension issues? No where did I say all women want marriage. I said "Next time the man you want to marry says". Nowhere did I say I assume all women earn less then men. I think your original post should have been gender-neutral. I know of a woman who wouldn't want to marry her long-time boyfriend for financial reasons (she's the one with more money, obviously). Some people who don't know their situation call her Mrs. [her boyfriend's last name]. 1
Gaeta Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 Do you have reading comprehension issues? No where did I say all women want marriage. I said "Next time the man you want to marry says". Nowhere did I say I assume all women earn less then men. In first paragraph you address your thread to WOMEN. Your second paragraph starts with: WOMEN, don’t devalue yourself Your fourth paragraph starts with: WOMEN, don’t move in And you end your thread with WOMEN value yourselves. I have excellent reading comprehension. Instead of telling women to value themselves by demanding marriage about you tell them to value themselves through personal and professional accomplishment. I was married for 15 years and it did not value me. It actually gave me nothing when we divorced because we had nothing. If I had valued myself I would have put my butt into University before marrying. Here I am years later as a professional who has obtain for herself assets and financial stability. Marriage is no longer a way to value myself and it should not be for any modern woman! Marriage should be a promise between 2 EQUAL partners, not for the sake of protecting one. It might be too liberal for you to read but does not mean it's not valuable for other women of this forum. 4
Author Whodatdog Posted June 20, 2017 Author Posted June 20, 2017 I think your original post should have been gender-neutral. I know of a woman who wouldn't want to marry her long-time boyfriend for financial reasons (she's the one with more money, obviously). Some people who don't know their situation call her Mrs. [her boyfriend's last name]. My post is not about people who DONT want to get married. Its about women who DO want to get married. And being gender neutral doesnt fit the theme of my post, since last time I looked men couldnt have babies. Tho times, they are a changin.... 1
Author Whodatdog Posted June 20, 2017 Author Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) Its threads like these that prompted my original post. They drive me crazy: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/getting-married/383073-won-t-marry-me-won-t-leave http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/92401-frustrated-my-so-doesnt-want-get-married http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/getting-married/209636-same-old-story-together-forever-but-no-ring http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/getting-married/377018-why-wont-he-marry-me Edited June 20, 2017 by Whodatdog
basil67 Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 For me, getting married is the ultimate commitment that you want to be with each other for the rest of your lives (as long as you stay married). Of course, it comes with a bunch of legal rights. Interesting how differently people feel about this stuff. For me, having children was the ultimate commitment. My previous marriage was just a blip on the radar, easily deleted. But having children with my now partner was a whole different level of commitment.
basil67 Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 Its threads like these that prompted my original post. They drive me crazy: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/getting-married/383073-won-t-marry-me-won-t-leave http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/92401-frustrated-my-so-doesnt-want-get-married http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/getting-married/209636-same-old-story-together-forever-but-no-ring http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/getting-married/377018-why-wont-he-marry-me Yes, these people made mistakes. Hopefully they will learn from their mistakes. People will always make mistakes. If other people's mistakes make you crazy, perhaps a hanging out with people who are writing about their mistakes is not a great place for you to be. 1
Gaeta Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 Its threads like these that prompted my original post. They drive me crazy: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/getting-married/383073-won-t-marry-me-won-t-leave http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/92401-frustrated-my-so-doesnt-want-get-married http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/getting-married/209636-same-old-story-together-forever-but-no-ring http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/getting-married/377018-why-wont-he-marry-me All these threads have one thing in common, they all claim to have a wonderful relationship. If they do then what is the problem? If it's a matter of being protected in case of death then go to a Notary and have a will made and take life insurances on each other. If it's a matter of protecting your assets then again go to a notary and have a trust set up. All of the security a marriage can give you, you can obtain while not married if you visit a Notary. At some point those women have to decide, do they want to spend the rest of their life with the man they love or they want to split over a technicality. Some of these women will also never be fully happy even after a wedding. It will be soon something else, and something else, a better car, a bigger house, more travelling, name it. When you spent 9 years with someone, like one of those threads, it's ridiculous to end a perfectly happy relationship over getting married. If being married is more important than being with the love of your life, something is wrong with your judgement. 2
EZNona Posted June 20, 2017 Posted June 20, 2017 My post is not about people who DONT want to get married. Its about women who DO want to get married. And being gender neutral doesnt fit the theme of my post, since last time I looked men couldnt have babies. Tho times, they are a changin.... Listen, you're post was 100% on point! And let's be real. We all know the type of relationships you were addressing in your OP. It's the internet and there will always be folks that want to be contrary to prove they don't fit in the mold described when the post is not about them and their situation anyway. More and more nowadays, the situations you described in your OP are increasing. I worked at a non-profit for 7 years, and I can't tell you how many times I have had this type of conversation with a young female that got herself 'stuck' in a predicament like what you described.
Recommended Posts