Frustrated!!!

[hestheone66]

Very interesting discussion.

 

It is very tied to our biological inheritance.

 

Men are less likely to forgive a transgressive female as he can never be sure of the paternity of his offspring and therefore unwilling to invest further (financially or emotionally or sexually) in this environment.

 

Women are programmed to require support - emotionally and financially, and within their life may rely on more than just their prime social relationship for this support.

 

As we have become a more nuclear family and less 'village' based, womens need for emotional connection and practical support (while having responsibility for child-raising) used to be found among other women in our groups. This has diminished with the majority of women in western countries working during their childrearing life.

 

The alienation that the nuclear family living in a community that is not truly communal means that women often lack the support that they crave and if their husband is not particularly present either emotionally or practically, their loyalty to that bond is eroded or lost.

 

The current situation that allows for greater interaction between the sexes and we can avoid being answerable to anyone. Previously the village didn't allow it to be as easy, and women were very severely punished for adultery.

 

It is clear as previous posters have said that women's adultery has more devastating consequences (I'm a female adulterer - had a beta male who wanted to forgive me. I knew I was wrong and was deeply shamed.. I also confessed within a few weeks of starting affair so no trickle truths etc. I looked at it as I had broken the marriage contract and it must therefore be dissolved, and I couldn't have respected any man who would have taken me back - the divorce though sad was amicable and I gave him the full 50% without going for child support/alimony etc)

 

I agree with Overtaxed who said affairs are worse for women. this was my case, in the first 20 years post divorce. he went on to marry and have more children and has built a successful business on the back of the settlement. Where i struggled in a variety of low paid jobs to keep food on table, and I don't have a 'family home' as I rent. The man I thought was my soulmate turned out very soon to be a complete A----le

 

Having said all that.. i come back to my initial point.

Monogamy for life is a situation that is a social construct that doesn't suit the majority of people.

How many people know married couples who are truly happy.. it does happen, but I believe it is very rare and should not be put on everyone as the 'best way'.

 

For years I have thought that the concept of 'renewable leases' rather than lifelong contract seems more appropriate for a condition that seems so fraught with emotional and financial danger. I can see that my wonderful BF and I can be together every single day of our lives.. The fact that both of us don't want to promise to be together 'forever' makes it possible to enjoy every day, make the most of our time together and not take each other for granted.

 

In fact he once asked me what i would say if he asked me to marry him and I replied "but I thought you loved me' There is a lot to be said for choosing to be with someone despite having an open door, rather than a trap door forcing us to 'mate in captivity'

[Mrs. John Adams]

Very interesting discussion.

 

It is very tied to our biological inheritance.

 

Men are less likely to forgive a transgressive female as he can never be sure of the paternity of his offspring and therefore unwilling to invest further (financially or emotionally or sexually) in this environment.

 

Women are programmed to require support - emotionally and financially, and within their life may rely on more than just their prime social relationship for this support.

 

As we have become a more nuclear family and less 'village' based, womens need for emotional connection and practical support (while having responsibility for child-raising) used to be found among other women in our groups. This has diminished with the majority of women in western countries working during their childrearing life.

 

The alienation that the nuclear family living in a community that is not truly communal means that women often lack the support that they crave and if their husband is not particularly present either emotionally or practically, their loyalty to that bond is eroded or lost.

 

The current situation that allows for greater interaction between the sexes and we can avoid being answerable to anyone. Previously the village didn't allow it to be as easy, and women were very severely punished for adultery.

 

It is clear as previous posters have said that women's adultery has more devastating consequences (I'm a female adulterer - had a beta male who wanted to forgive me. I knew I was wrong and was deeply shamed.. I also confessed within a few weeks of starting affair so no trickle truths etc. I looked at it as I had broken the marriage contract and it must therefore be dissolved, and I couldn't have respected any man who would have taken me back - the divorce though sad was amicable and I gave him the full 50% without going for child support/alimony etc)

 

I agree with Overtaxed who said affairs are worse for women. this was my case, in the first 20 years post divorce. he went on to marry and have more children and has built a successful business on the back of the settlement. Where i struggled in a variety of low paid jobs to keep food on table, and I don't have a 'family home' as I rent. The man I thought was my soulmate turned out very soon to be a complete A----le

 

Having said all that.. i come back to my initial point.

Monogamy for life is a situation that is a social construct that doesn't suit the majority of people.

How many people know married couples who are truly happy.. it does happen, but I believe it is very rare and should not be put on everyone as the 'best way'.

 

For years I have thought that the concept of 'renewable leases' rather than lifelong contract seems more appropriate for a condition that seems so fraught with emotional and financial danger. I can see that my wonderful BF and I can be together every single day of our lives.. The fact that both of us don't want to promise to be together 'forever' makes it possible to enjoy every day, make the most of our time together and not take each other for granted.

 

In fact he once asked me what i would say if he asked me to marry him and I replied "but I thought you loved me' There is a lot to be said for choosing to be with someone despite having an open door, rather than a trap door forcing us to 'mate in captivity'

 

Thats some strange stuff you got going on there

 

My children are indeed my husbands

and we are very happy after infidelity

 

I have no idea what you just said...but whatever

[MidnightBlue1980]

Good post. This is what I think is happening.

 

MOST women are emotionally involved with one man (if she is in a relationship and is faithful) or two men (if she is cheating). The reason why this doesn't mean that the same can be said for men is that (I suspect anyway) there are a lot of men out there who are involved with a PLURAL of women. As in the man is in a relationship and is cheating but with more than one woman besides his primary relationship, OR he is single and is hooking up with several women. As there are about an equal number of heterosexual men and women, the math would balance out by a larger number of "Forever Alone" guys than FA women.

 

i.e., it may go something like this: Say Chad, Jason, and Timmy are stuck on an island w Jessica, Jennifer, and Sarah. Then likely all 3 women are having sex and maybe each w only one person, but it's going like this: Jessica and Jennifer are having sex w Chad, and Sarah and Jason are in a relationship, while poor Timmy isn't getting w anyone.

 

I think anyway, I don't have data to back it up. But it does make a lot sense...as you (HereNorThere) said, getting dates and sex does tend to be something that not every guy can do. So those who can, have the whole buffet laid out for them and many really keep going up for extra helpings LOL.

 

So to get back On-Topic, maybe more women are in extramarital affairs (or maybe not), but the women who ARE in one, are cheating w ONLY one person. The men who are in extramarital affairs however, may be more likely to be cheating with MORE THAN one, making up the difference.

 

I will back you up. What you say is true. I'm in a weird world since I own a business and interact with a lot of men. 100% they are either completely committed to their wife or they have a lot of women and LIE to everyone.

 

One guy, his wife lost interest in sex, same old story that you read about here. He considers himself better as he does not lie to women, he pays for it. He goes to a place weekly for sex. He is aware that if his wife finds out, she will divorce him. He is okay with this and is honest that he will just be alone and never marry again. At the same time, he is a hypocrite as he DOES sleep with a woman he may meet, who likes him - and he tells everyone about it afterwards, it's just a big joke to him. He has zero feelings, zero commitment to these women, it's purely nothing to him.

 

Another guy, he is divorced and having an affair with a woman whose husband is very sick with a terminal illness. This woman thinks he loves her (because he tells her so) and she thinks they are "exclusive" (again, because he tells her so) but he is out there, screwing anything that gives it up - dates, exes - whoever - and he lies to the MW, she has no clue. He does tell me he loves the woman but he is not sure if will work out as he is not sure he wants to be with someone who can do that to her sick husband. 4 months ago he was telling me he was in love with someone else. It's just a game for these guys - plus he has no soul, he feels no conscience at sleeping with a woman whose husband is dying. It is not his marriage, he says.

 

Another guy, still married and living at home has a girlfriend. He is actually getting a divorce. But from time to time a woman will offer it up and he will go for it. He was married for a long time and I can't really blame it, at last he took my advice and stays away from married women, but his girlfriend has no idea.

 

Moral of the story - men lie and generally don't feel bad about it.

 

Side note - I know a lot of you guys think being friends with guys is a bad thing for a former WS but I am telling you, not so much as it is like knowing you all in real life. I hear the real story, the truth. It's pretty scary.

[BluesPower]

I will back you up. What you say is true. I'm in a weird world since I own a business and interact with a lot of men. 100% they are either completely committed to their wife or they have a lot of women and LIE to everyone.

 

One guy, his wife lost interest in sex, same old story that you read about here. He considers himself better as he does not lie to women, he pays for it. He goes to a place weekly for sex. He is aware that if his wife finds out, she will divorce him. He is okay with this and is honest that he will just be alone and never marry again. At the same time, he is a hypocrite as he DOES sleep with a woman he may meet, who likes him - and he tells everyone about it afterwards, it's just a big joke to him. He has zero feelings, zero commitment to these women, it's purely nothing to him.

 

Another guy, he is divorced and having an affair with a woman whose husband is very sick with a terminal illness. This woman thinks he loves her (because he tells her so) and she thinks they are "exclusive" (again, because he tells her so) but he is out there, screwing anything that gives it up - dates, exes - whoever - and he lies to the MW, she has no clue. He does tell me he loves the woman but he is not sure if will work out as he is not sure he wants to be with someone who can do that to her sick husband. 4 months ago he was telling me he was in love with someone else. It's just a game for these guys - plus he has no soul, he feels no conscience at sleeping with a woman whose husband is dying. It is not his marriage, he says.

 

Another guy, still married and living at home has a girlfriend. He is actually getting a divorce. But from time to time a woman will offer it up and he will go for it. He was married for a long time and I can't really blame it, at last he took my advice and stays away from married women, but his girlfriend has no idea.

 

Moral of the story - men lie and generally don't feel bad about it.

 

Side note - I know a lot of you guys think being friends with guys is a bad thing for a former WS but I am telling you, not so much as it is like knowing you all in real life. I hear the real story, the truth. It's pretty scary.

 

Wow Midnight... That is a poor group of men that you know. What percentage of guys is that from the total group I wonder.

 

BTW, this is an interesting topic in a variety of ways.

 

There are just so many angles here. For me, it took me so long to figure out that my wife was not a good person in general. And man I tried everything to make that crap marriage work. I took her back after 2 affairs, and I never should have. I took care of her and raised my kids as a single dad for the most part when she was "Sick", read hidden drug addiction, and on and on. In many ways I was just a fool, young in some of the circumstances and just generally stupid. But foolish in general.

 

I had all of these ideas about honor, and duty, and you stay married no matter what. You take care of your family even if it kills you, and it almost did. You never get a divorce no matter what. I think adherence to these types of ideas the way that I did is just stupid, stupid, stupid. So this is the reason that some of us stayed.

 

BTW, she was a SAHM and never ever had to work a day in her life when she was married to me.

 

As for some of the other points... as society emasculates men and empowers women there are just a ton of unconfident men out there and I think they never get laid. If they get into a relationship they are going to stay because they may never find another woman.

 

After I realized that my marriage was never going to work I started cheating, a lot and I went through a ton of woman, for a while. I was still trapped in the marriage because she was "Sick" so that was another problem. And I did the same after the divorce.

 

And as a practical matter, I just want to say that dating many women at once sounds great and it is a lot of fun, after a while it just gets old and tedious.

[Overtaxed]

Read what Midnight and Blues are saying and BELIEVE it. This is the SOP for men. "Oh he's different". Not if he's in an A with you, he's showing you, in fact, he's NOT different.

 

Wow Midnight... That is a poor group of men that you know. What percentage of guys is that from the total group I wonder.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Midnight and I probably run in similar circles. Maybe not, but this sounds really similar to what I see in the circle of wealthy and typically attractive men. Basically, these men are the kind of men that women "want to marry" or date and because of that, they easily slip into affairs. They have a massive sense of entitlement because of their wealth, their wives don't sleep with them often, and, to fill the gap, they have A's. They also travel frequently for work which makes it "easy" to have ONS's.

 

In my total group of associates, what percentage fall into this category? Probably about 50%.

 

One guy, his wife lost interest in sex, same old story that you read about here. He considers himself better as he does not lie to women, he pays for it. He goes to a place weekly for sex. He is aware that if his wife finds out, she will divorce him. He is okay with this and is honest that he will just be alone and never marry again. At the same time, he is a hypocrite as he DOES sleep with a woman he may meet, who likes him - and he tells everyone about it afterwards, it's just a big joke to him. He has zero feelings, zero commitment to these women, it's purely nothing to him.

 

The most typical type of male cheater I know. Wife had kids, no more sex at home, add in girls on the side. "Loves" his wife to death, can't stop talking about her and the kids. But cheats all the time and, honestly, doesn't feel the least bit bad about it, at least not to his friends.

 

Moral of the story - men lie and generally don't feel bad about it.

 

Please, ladies, believe this statement. Men lie for sex under good conditions. When they are already married? The lying approaches 100%. It's not even that we don't feel bad about it, it's that's what almost all of us need to do to have sex with a new woman. We've been socialized to lie about our feelings to have sex; I'm sorry, I really am, but it's the way it is. We have a dramatically higher sex drive than women, and we have no compunction about lying to get it when we see it at "harmless". Honestly, it's not even that, it's more like a "social grace". We expect that you expect us to lie; kind of like when you ask a cancer patient "how you doing" and they respond "fine". It's a social grace, we all know that patient is lying, but we all accept that answer as the "polite" version. "I love you" is the polite version of "I'd like to sleep with you" for most male/female sexual interactions.

[Zona]

I think it is pretty easy to see why more women are cheating; there is just more opportunity, it has become less taboo, and it is even socially acceptable in some feminist circles.

 

Most women work, and workplace affairs are the most common type of cheating women get involved with. Facebook is another biggie where it is really easy for women to contact old flames, or to get entangled emotionally with other men they know.

 

Don't expect this trend to end any time soon. Divorce rates will climb and birthrates will continue to plummet.

[niji]

I think it is pretty easy to see why more women are cheating; there is just more opportunity, it has become less taboo, and it is even socially acceptable in some feminist circles.

 

Sadly I think this is true, and extremely frustrating. As a woman, I despise this line of thinking, "We've been oppressed for so long; now it's our chance to do what they've been doing to us for centuries - let's go out and cheat". If you truly feel empowered as a woman and would like to have casual sex, then go out and do JUST THAT. Have casual sex. But don't be in a committed relationship then use "female empowerment" as an excuse to be selfish so that you can lie and deceive. One has nothing to do with the other.

 

I remember someone (maybe Overtaxed?) said that women these days have the same power as men but aren't held up to the same moral standards and accountability, and I think that's true to a certain extent. Many women still have the "woe is me" attitude. I've been sacrificing for so long, that now I'd like to be selfish and deserve to have some enjoyment on the side I also don't understand how you can demand equality while still demand a double standards from men (eg. huge diamond as a proposal (a totally made up concept to support De Beers), men need to work their behind off to support me, men need to pay for all my spending, etc). How on earth do these double standards support feminism? They don't. On the other hand, OT, I believe just as many women have "extremely high IQs" as men, but they don't have the same opportunity to expose those IQs as men - I'd like to think in the next century, we'll be able show that But hey, I digress.

[Zona]

OT, I believe just as many women have "extremely high IQs" as men, but they don't have the same opportunity to expose those IQs as men - I'd like to think in the next century, we'll be able show that But hey, I digress.

 

Yes, I am married to a successful doctor. She doesn't need feminists to tell her that she can do anything she wants, she just does it!

 

Women can be successful without being jerks, and most do just that, but there is a growing minority that chose to cheat on their spouses. Also our society devalues masculinity which is creating a generation of wimps. Don't see how that is going to help anything.

[MidnightBlue1980]

Read what Midnight and Blues are saying and BELIEVE it. This is the SOP for men. "Oh he's different". Not if he's in an A with you, he's showing you, in fact, he's NOT different.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Midnight and I probably run in similar circles. Maybe not, but this sounds really similar to what I see in the circle of wealthy and typically attractive men. Basically, these men are the kind of men that women "want to marry" or date and because of that, they easily slip into affairs. They have a massive sense of entitlement because of their wealth, their wives don't sleep with them often, and, to fill the gap, they have A's. They also travel frequently for work which makes it "easy" to have ONS's.

 

In my total group of associates, what percentage fall into this category? Probably about 50%.

 

The most typical type of male cheater I know. Wife had kids, no more sex at home, add in girls on the side. "Loves" his wife to death, can't stop talking about her and the kids. But cheats all the time and, honestly, doesn't feel the least bit bad about it, at least not to his friends.

 

Please, ladies, believe this statement. Men lie for sex under good conditions. When they are already married? The lying approaches 100%. It's not even that we don't feel bad about it, it's that's what almost all of us need to do to have sex with a new woman. We've been socialized to lie about our feelings to have sex; I'm sorry, I really am, but it's the way it is. We have a dramatically higher sex drive than women, and we have no compunction about lying to get it when we see it at "harmless". Honestly, it's not even that, it's more like a "social grace". We expect that you expect us to lie; kind of like when you ask a cancer patient "how you doing" and they respond "fine". It's a social grace, we all know that patient is lying, but we all accept that answer as the "polite" version. "I love you" is the polite version of "I'd like to sleep with you" for most male/female sexual interactions.

 

It's true. These are not lowlifes, these are pretty successful men. They are a lot of fun to be around and it's weird for me because they are really not bad guys. In all cases, they really just wanted their wives. They wanted their families. They did not want the divorce at all and they allowed complete humiliation at the hands of the wives. They allowed themselves to be treated like a piece of human garbage. I was there. The rejection eventually got to them and changed them. They just all use women now and they do not feel bad at all because as they all tell me, the women know upfront the facts and if they choose to believe otherwise, that is on her.

 

It has helped me in my own situation as when I told them, they said, you have got to be kidding me, you fell for that? and so on. But they don't judge me and actually think I am lucky as I have my family, which is all they wanted and could not keep.