When you feel you have no choice but to end it - a potential dumper's perspective

[1fish2fish]

You deserve better and you deserve to have a true emotional connection with someone who doesn't try to numb his emotions with his addictions.

As I'm discovering, thanks to this forum, addicts cannot feel and process emotions properly.

 

I fell in love with my ex-bf's potential. And he had so much, but I want a partner, not a project.

[Nothingtolose]

Haven't been here in a while, so thought I'd post an update and hopefully get some advice.

 

Bf and I moved out of our place together exactly a month ago. I got my own apartment and he went to live with his parents for a few months. We agreed to keep seeing each other and see if we could rebuild things, but to also take some space for the first few weeks (as in, see each other once or twice a week, but not a ton - so we could both work on the things that needed to be worked on for ourselves)

 

I was proud of the fact that he made the responsible decision to go live with his parents (a 3 hour commute for him every day), instead of moving in with his friend who lives close to his work but also sells weed and constantly has friends over who all drink/smoke/do drugs. He says he's been drinking and smoking a lot less, cause it's 'depressing to be drinking alone in his parents' basement' (not to mention his mom def keeps tabs on him). He also seems determined to use the money he's saving on rent to pay off some of his debt.

 

So he has made progress in some areas, which is good, however, he still has not booked a counselling session (which he told me he would do). Also, our first weekend together after moving out he was super sweet, loving and affectionate, asking me lots of questions and really listening to my answers (not his usual aloof self) etc. It made me realize he isn't that oblivious, he knows how to make me happy, he usually just...can't be bothered?

 

The following few weeks though, we kept seeing each other on weekends only, and instead of being happy/excited after not seeing me for a week, he was often grumpy and snappy for no reason. This isn't a new thing, he's always been very moody often for no apparent reason, but now that i go the entire week without seeing him, i can't put up with him being grumpy/moody on the one day of the week we're spending together.

 

So last weekend i snapped and we had a huge fight, almost a break up...and he said it's hard to enjoy time with me because I'm "still nagging" and feeling the need to "control his life". I'm NOT nagging him daily anymore, i never ask any of those things via text (we text daily still) but when we see each other on weekends i'll sometimes ask how his drinking is going, or if he drank a lot that week, or if he got his debt consolidated into one place to make it easier to keep track of what still needs to be paid off etc. To me, this is 1) checking in because I care, not nagging and 2) checking in because he promised me he would work on those things, and he knows the future of our relationship lies on keeping the promises we both made about things we'd work on. He said he'd go to counselling to work on his depression/the underlying causes of his addictions and moods etc, and I'd go to counselling to work on my self-esteem and insecurities, which I have been. He doesn't check in on that or ask me if I'm working on those things, but if he did, it wouldn't bother me at all.

 

Anyway, when I suggested breaking up he got very angry and said I was lazy and taking the easy way out...that he's working on all his **** and meanwhile I have not changed one bit, and continue to nag and control. Is checking in/asking a question 'nagging and controlling'? Especially when you're checking on something someone promised to work on, and I don't see him every day, so the only way to know if he's fullfilling that promise is to ask?

 

We agreed to not talk much this week, so we can take some space and clear our heads, then have a conversation on Sunday about things. I love him still and god knows why, I still don't feel completely ready to give up, even though I probably should. I feel extreme anxiety over the possibility that nothing will actually change, and the only way for me to relieve that anxiety is by checking in and asking him how he's tracking on those things. I'm not sure if I can stop that, and honestly I don't see why I should - if someone agreed to work on something and they are doing their part, why should it bother them that their partner is asking once a week about the progress of it?

[1fish2fish]

Oh honey. I feel for you, I really do.

 

But it's not your job to monitor his progress.

 

The only way he's going to make lasting changes is for him to do it because he wants to for himself, and that's a road he has to walk alone. At least, without you.

 

If, and when, he does all the things he said he was going to do, maybe then re-visit the relationship.

 

Right now, he's made *some* adjustments in quantity. But really, it's not enough, and they aren't true "changes". He's just doing less. He's an addict, and therapy is his only hope. It will take years post therapy for him to learn healthy mechanisms for dealing with emotions and stress, and he may become a completely different person.

 

(^^This is from my ex-husband, who when we married was 25 years sober and still called himself a recovering addict. )

Edited June 1, 2017 by 1fish2fish

[Bromeo]

Lots of girl power on this thread. I am going to present a contrasting opinion.

 

Op, the basis of any solid relationship is communication. You can read over 100 posts about how my ex acted, but it boils down to she refused to communicate, and did so in a punitive, punishing way.

 

She struggled with many of the same things yours does. Prior arrest, pot, smoked, drank heavily, no ambition, etc. I loved her anyway. From her I learned some valuable lessons about letting go, communicating, and being a better partner, mostly gained from the confusion and pain of the breakup.

 

And, just like you, our sex was amazing. Which is probably what kept me acting a fool long after I should have ran. Lol

 

From reading this thread, your man appears to be making demonstrable changes both for himself and your r/s. I disagree with the prevailing internet philosophy of "ZOMG HES NOT PERFECT BLOCK/DELETE/BYE FELECIA". Real change takes time and effort, especially in his case. Some posters here are all too quick to recommend ending things, which is reflective often of either prior hurt or a misunderstanding of the nature of things.

 

What he needs is time, patience, and love. From my perspective reading, during your time together he is seeking to forget about the struggles of the previous week. Just enjoy his company. I had to move home for a time to convalesce, and it does indeed suck.

 

Whatever you are feeling, communicate it. Ask him to do the same. If you are with him, be fully present with him. If not, cut and run.

[Nothingtolose]

From reading this thread, your man appears to be making demonstrable changes both for himself and your r/s. I disagree with the prevailing internet philosophy of "ZOMG HES NOT PERFECT BLOCK/DELETE/BYE FELECIA". Real change takes time and effort, especially in his case. Some posters here are all too quick to recommend ending things, which is reflective often of either prior hurt or a misunderstanding of the nature of things.

 

What he needs is time, patience, and love. From my perspective reading, during your time together he is seeking to forget about the struggles of the previous week. Just enjoy his company. I had to move home for a time to convalesce, and it does indeed suck.

 

Whatever you are feeling, communicate it. Ask him to do the same. If you are with him, be fully present with him. If not, cut and run.

 

Thanks Bromeo for offering your perspective. I understand it's been stressful for him - he could have easily moved into his friend's place and continued the lifestyle that was affecting his life and our relationship, but he chose the harder route, living far away from the city and all his friends, to be able to save some money and get out of debt and also work on his vices. I'm proud of him for making that choice.

 

However, I also worry that he has a long long way to go, and if I was in my early-mid twenties I may have been able to afford more time to shower him with love and patience while he goes through that growth...however, being 33 and wanting marriage and kids soon, I just don't have that luxury If we are going to stay together, I need these changes to happen faster, and I don't know how to just relax and not put pressure on him. I find it hard to not do that when those things are constantly in the back of my mind, giving me a ton of anxiety that my time is running out, my clock is ticking, I could be using this time to meet a man who doesn't have all these problems etc etc...it's really tough. The obvious answer would be to cut him off and move on so he can grow/ work on his issues at a pace he is comfortable with...but the thought of us not being in each other's lives anymore, him getting with another woman etc just kills me.

 

I would like to be able to enjoy our time together without all this anxiety about the future looming over my head, but I don't know how. Unless I get validation from him that he is making progress, I can't help but ask. It doesn't need to be a full weekly report, but I'd like for him to take initiative to share those things without me having to ask...like telling me "I'm really proud of myself, this week I only drank 3 nights" or "My debt is now 2K lower, it feels so good to see it going down" - just little snippets like that in conversation would help me put my mind at ease.

[Zapbasket]

I haven't posted on here in a while but your thread resonates strongly with me, and I hope I can be a voice of help the way others helped me.

 

Believe me when I say you are doing the RIGHT THING for both of you by leaving. There's some truth, certainly, in what posters have said about standing by a person you love who is going through a hard time, but the limit on that is when that person fails to take FULL responsibility for their situation and the steps to get out of it. Also when the person's psychological problems are clearly helping to create the bad situation and are more deep-seated than mere "growing pains." Both of these things are true of your boyfriend.

 

I was with someone for 3.5 years who didn't have any obvious problems like addiction or financial irresponsibility, but he was very stuck in his life, irritable, and enjoyed getting under my skin but would then blame me when I got upset. Like you I tried to be patient and to stand by him and even to try to help him, and like you I got called difficult, a nag, over-sensitive, etc. This really confused me at the time, and so I didn't leave. HE actually was the one to end it, saying he felt he was always two steps behind me and that he couldn't give me what I wanted. I was shocked, because I thought knowing a breakup was imminent would spur him to begin to address his issues, and instead he just gave up! I couldn't believe it.

 

Then I spent longer than I care to admit POSITIVE that he'd go off and work on himself and then get in touch, saying how much he wanted to be with me. I haven't heard or observed anything that would suggest he did any work, but then I'm not in his life so I don't really know. All I know is that he never contacted me.

 

And it still hurts; I did genuinely love that guy and I believe he did genuinely love me; I felt it. I was very invested in that relationship and my life got much more difficult before it started to get better after we broke up, and it's not at all like I rode off into the sunset toward "better pastures." I've been riding a wave of a lot of hard life lessons all at once.

 

But here's what became very clear to me: relationships don't work when one partner wants/needs the other to change for the relationship to be healthy and happy for both partners. The rule of relationships is that you must be able to take the person as-is, which doesn't mean you have to settle: it means that if you can't take the person as-is, if you try (and you have to do some work and try, which you HAVE DONE) and really can't, then the healthiest thing for both of you is to end the relationship. It really, really is.

 

Don't worry about him going off and becoming his best self with another woman. He might, but it's very unlikely. As another poster said, what's more likely is that he'll find someone who will put up with some version of exactly what he gave you. It won't be a healthy relationship, just one with less conflict. And if he goes and gets the counseling necessary to change those deep-seated self-sabotaging behaviors for good? And meets a great woman and is able to give her all he couldn't give you? Even so, it still was right for you to have left. It doesn't feel that way, I know, but sometimes the right things don't feel 100% right. It never feels right to leave someone you love. But that doesn't mean it's not objectively, "right."

Edited June 1, 2017 by GreenCove

[Bromeo]

Thanks Bromeo for offering your perspective. I understand it's been stressful for him - he could have easily moved into his friend's place and continued the lifestyle that was affecting his life and our relationship, but he chose the harder route, living far away from the city and all his friends, to be able to save some money and get out of debt and also work on his vices. I'm proud of him for making that choice.

 

However, I also worry that he has a long long way to go, and if I was in my early-mid twenties I may have been able to afford more time to shower him with love and patience while he goes through that growth...however, being 33 and wanting marriage and kids soon, I just don't have that luxury If we are going to stay together, I need these changes to happen faster, and I don't know how to just relax and not put pressure on him. I find it hard to not do that when those things are constantly in the back of my mind, giving me a ton of anxiety that my time is running out, my clock is ticking, I could be using this time to meet a man who doesn't have all these problems etc etc...it's really tough. The obvious answer would be to cut him off and move on so he can grow/ work on his issues at a pace he is comfortable with...but the thought of us not being in each other's lives anymore, him getting with another woman etc just kills me.

 

I would like to be able to enjoy our time together without all this anxiety about the future looming over my head, but I don't know how. Unless I get validation from him that he is making progress, I can't help but ask. It doesn't need to be a full weekly report, but I'd like for him to take initiative to share those things without me having to ask...like telling me "I'm really proud of myself, this week I only drank 3 nights" or "My debt is now 2K lower, it feels so good to see it going down" - just little snippets like that in conversation would help me put my mind at ease.

 

Here's the thing. You are putting your wants - being married quick due to some imaginary timeline, and your needs before him. People get married in their sixties. And some women never have children and lived completely fulfilled lives. By attempting to force that particular situation to fruition, you are disrupting the natural ebb and flow of relationships, and not allowing good things to happen to you at their own pace. It took me a very long time to learn this.

 

Additionally, needing validation is a slippery slope, and is often based in insecurities. Relationships are partnerships, based on communication, building memories, meeting each other's needs, and mutual respect. If your have a need such as this, communicate it to him in a loving way, that makes him feel valued. Your continued commitment to working on things should not be based on his reports of lowered debt, three cigarettes this week, or slipped up and had a joint.

 

That's called parenting.

 

For context, I created my ex a resume, helped her acquire several jobs, was helping her enroll in school, started her an exercise routine, and was assisting her with starting a family business.

 

None of that is occurring now. Additionally, I'll never make that same effort again. I have determined through this experience that it's a flaw in my selection criteria that in part led to my own mess, stemming for an insecurity of mine, resulting in my choosing "fixer upper projects". I would invite you to reflect in the same.

 

Be safe. And keep us updated.

[Whodatdog]

I know you see it as caring for him, but you are nagging him. And being his mommy. Checking up on him, asking him if he's done this yet, if he's stopped this yet.

 

You may think you love him, but I think you are loving what he can be if he did a. and b. and c. It never works. You cant care more about what he is than he does. Its a never ending battle. Either he wants to do it for himself, or he doesnt. Im not convinced, by what youve written, that he does.

 

You either have to accept him for what he is, and let him fight his own battles (if he even truly wants to), or realize it will just never be what you want.

[neowulf]

I don't think you understand love as much as you think you do. Love is complicated, people love each other in many different ways. You can love people and still have deep, serious problems with them that can't be resolved (look at some people's relationships with their parents, just for a start).

 

It's not as simple as "well, this relationship isn't 100% perfect so I guess it's not love, bye!" No relationship is 100% perfect, and the starry-eyed "I will be happy with absolutely everything about you, even if you are an axe murderer with a deadly contagious disease" phase of crazy limerence is not lasting love.

 

Every relationship has its good and bad points and everyone has to make their own decisions about when the problems are too much to go on.

 

There's "My relationship isn't perfect", then there's "My relationship has giant red flags that will give a high chance of failure and heartbreak".

 

Let's list them out shall we?

 

1) Substance abuse issues (Alcoholism)

2) Debt

3) Poor financial prospects

4) Poor communication skills (Constant name calling / arguments)

 

These are giant, glaring issues.

 

Love isn't always enough. The person you're choose as your life partner has *MASSIVE* ramifications for your success, health and future.

 

I swear, people spend more time worrying about what house they'll buy than about the person they breed with ?!?

[Bromeo]

There's "My relationship isn't perfect", then there's "My relationship has giant red flags that will give a high chance of failure and heartbreak".

 

Let's list them out shall we?

 

1) Substance abuse issues (Alcoholism)

2) Debt

3) Poor financial prospects

4) Poor communication skills (Constant name calling / arguments)

 

These are giant, glaring issues.

 

Love isn't always enough. The person you're choose as your life partner has *MASSIVE* ramifications for your success, health and future.

 

I swear, people spend more time worrying about what house they'll buy than about the person they breed with ?!?

 

And yet, love persists. The choice is for op to make. There's a reason love conquers all. Logic sucks.

 

And I disagree, success, health, and future are individual to the person. Relationships should enhance your life, not be the reason for it.

 

If op chooses to remain, then she has to work with her partner on the above.

[basil67]

This thread is breaking my heart.

 

All this talk about spending *years* hoping and waiting for our partners to get their lives together. About love being a patient. Or ending it being Lose/Lose.

 

It's such a waste of your life! I've left a marriage because of a husband who wouldn't address his issues. I'd run out of patience. There was no lose on my end. It was a good decision and my life is so much better for it. I now have a good man and a life which makes me very happy.

 

Do you know how many better men are out there? Just don't make the mistake of hooking up with another loser.

[neowulf]

And yet, love persists. The choice is for op to make. There's a reason love conquers all. Logic sucks.

 

And I disagree, success, health, and future are individual to the person. Relationships should enhance your life, not be the reason for it.

 

If op chooses to remain, then she has to work with her partner on the above.

 

I know that's a romantic notion to have and you're welcome to your opinion.

 

But they have actually done studies into this stuff.

 

I'm telling you, for every 1 couple that "overcomes all for love" there are hundreds that crash and burn.

 

Of course it's the OP's decision. But don't sugar coat the situation.

 

Or you put it another way.

 

What if she dumps this guy and goes on to find a healthy, successful attract guy to fall in love with? Would that be so terrible? Why does the OP think this "project" is worth her time?

[neowulf]

This thread is breaking my heart.

 

All this talk about spending *years* hoping and waiting for our partners to get their lives together. About love being a patient. Or ending it being Lose/Lose.

 

It's such a waste of your life! I've left a marriage because of a husband who wouldn't address his issues. I'd run out of patience. There was no lose on my end. It was a good decision and my life is so much better for it. I now have a good man and a life which makes me very happy.

 

Do you know how many better men are out there? Just don't make the mistake of hooking up with another loser.

 

^ This. So much this.

 

Why does the OP think so little of herself that this loser is the person she want to bank her hopes and dreams on.

 

What is it about women that make them put up with so much crap from men like this?! I'm never going to understand it.

[Zapbasket]

What is it about women that make them put up with so much crap from men like this?! I'm never going to understand it.

 

I think partly because it's still the expectation for girls that they self-abnegate; the idea of being a "good girl" still is to put others' needs before her own. And then when girls grow up and are in romantic relationships, their first thought is, "I must support him / be nurturing / help him / etc.," and not, "I must think of myself first here."

 

Not saying EVERY woman, all the time...but I do think it saturates our society in subtle and not-so-subtle ways.

 

All of us, men and women, need to love ourselves first. It's not a bad thing to be selfish. Be kind to strangers. Help in causes that benefit others. But give your love, time, intimacy, and ongoing investment to those who also give it to you. Love only really works between two people who love themselves; I learned this the hard way.

[Nothingtolose]

Here's the thing. You are putting your wants - being married quick due to some imaginary timeline, and your needs before him.

 

You're right, I am. And why shouldn't I be? He's not going to put me/my needs first, so I need to learn to do this for myself (clearly I'm not doing a good job of it either, because I'm still sticking around )

 

You guys have offered a lot of good advice and insights, and it does break my heard to read through this thread too because deep down I know you are right. I spoke to our counsellor today (we don't go to him together anymore, I go on my own now to do individual counselling and work on my own issues), and I said to him I don't know why I'm still not at the point where I'm ready to walk out the door, after all the fights, and the drama, and the waiting for a change that may never happen. I feel like I'm getting closer to reach that 'had enough' stage, but I'm not there yet, and I'm afraid of breaking up before having fully reached that point and then end up that pathetic person who can't really move on and keeps reaching out to the ex etc. If I'm going to end it, I want to be ready to put a stop to it and move on and not look back. Some days I can't believe I'm not there yet.

 

I think this is related to me loving him yes, but obviously there is more...my daddy issues, abandonment issues, lack of self-esteem and confidence in myself, the need to fix someone to get some type of validation of my own self-worth...obviously I'm not rationally thinking any of these things, but I know these deep rooted issues are there and that I need to unpack them and work on them with him or without...otherwise this will continue to impact my life and lead me to the wrong relationship yet again.

 

I think partly because it's still the expectation for girls that they self-abnegate; the idea of being a "good girl" still is to put others' needs before her own. And then when girls grow up and are in romantic relationships, their first thought is, "I must support him / be nurturing / help him / etc.," and not, "I must think of myself first here."

 

This is also true. I know the small changes he has made so far may be small in my eyes and your guys' eyes, but I'm sure they're big to him...so here's a guy who's attempting some kind of progress, albeit not fast enough for me, and I feel extreme guilt over the thought of leaving him instead of continuing to provide patience, love and support. I've always had the mentality that you don't give up on the people you love, and this is such a difficult mind frame to break out of. I am trying to work on loving myself more, and putting my own needs first, but it's not always easy. I have invested so much emotional energy into this/us, that giving up almost feels like I swam, swam, swam, just to end up dying at the shore.

 

Greencove, I related so much to everything you said in your earlier post, it's crazy. I went and read some of your past threads and I swear I could have written some of them myself. It appears it's now been close to 4 years since your break up - how do you feel today?

[Bromeo]

^ This. So much this.

 

Why does the OP think so little of herself that this loser is the person she want to bank her hopes and dreams on.

 

What is it about women that make them put up with so much crap from men like this?! I'm never going to understand it.

 

"Men like this". I completely understand that this board is full of hurt, lonely, and sad people. It is sometimes very difficult for me not to be bitter towards my ex, but I know it's her and not women en masse.

 

In this case, ops partner has turned inward to cope, and has made demonstrable changes due to obviously caring about her. If op still cares, than the onus is on her to be patient and allow him to find his peace in his time. And it is very difficult. Her "biological clock" has to partner with his needs. Plain and simple.

 

Let's flip the switch a bit. What advice would be given to a man who desperately loved a woman who wasn't meeting his needs? Or had turned inwards to cope? There is board after board of women abandoning seemingly decent relationships, monkey branching, and demolishing relationships in spectacular ways. In those instances, the standard advice of NC and work on yourself applies. I don't see the same girl power there, and I gently help to avoid bitter misogyny on those threads, although often the conduct - from the woman, is deplorable.

 

Having said that, before the flame war begins, I understand we only see the hurt partners thoughts and perspective. In my own case, I presented facts to avoid subjectivity.

 

Therefore, this circumstance is not gender specific, it's person specific.

 

This situation requires more analysis and introspection due to apparent commitment that ops partner has displayed. She has to do the internal work and make the decision.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Bromeo

[Zapbasket]

This is also true. I know the small changes he has made so far may be small in my eyes and your guys' eyes, but I'm sure they're big to him...so here's a guy who's attempting some kind of progress, albeit not fast enough for me, and I feel extreme guilt over the thought of leaving him instead of continuing to provide patience, love and support. I've always had the mentality that you don't give up on the people you love, and this is such a difficult mind frame to break out of. I am trying to work on loving myself more, and putting my own needs first, but it's not always easy. I have invested so much emotional energy into this/us, that giving up almost feels like I swam, swam, swam, just to end up dying at the shore.

 

I understand. It's a huge mind-f*ck especially when you are a very loyal person, as you seem to be. The important thing to recognize though is that these feelings of guilt and that you're not "seeing all your investment through" are the result of the huge imbalance you have accepted in this relationship. You've been picking up the slack, hoping that doing so will create two whole people forming a whole and balanced relationship. But it doesn't work that way. It's just you choosing to live life with a 300-pound barbell on your shoulders all the time. It's as futile as that, only unlike actual fitness weight-lifting, you don't get stronger over time, you buckle.

 

The other thing is that in this instance, you're not "helping and supporting" your boyfriend. You are enabling him. The line between being supportive and being an enabler is really hard to discern. One clue is being called things like a "nag" when you're simply asking someone to be an adult and carry his weight in a relationship. As soon as you must abnegate your basic needs to keep a relationship going, you enter the territory of co-dependency and enabling.

 

Greencove, I related so much to everything you said in your earlier post, it's crazy. I went and read some of your past threads and I swear I could have written some of them myself. It appears it's now been close to 4 years since your break up - how do you feel today?

 

This relationship really did a number on me. But really I think it just finally exposed some deep-seated abandonment and self-worth issues that needed to be brought to light if I ever had a hope of having a fulfilled and authentic life.

 

He disappointed me terribly; I've never been so disappointed in another person, and it still hurts. But that's the thing about spending too long in these kinds of relationships: nothing about them feels good or does you (or the other person) any good. It's hard to see that when you're in it, and then you don't want to leave it because you find yourself faced with NO good option (the situation you're in right now), and it seems like you MUST MUST MUST see it through to that hoped-for result of realized potential because otherwise you must face the very empty hand you have been dealt.

 

I had to finally face that empty hand. And what made that most painful is that when I started to face the empty hand of the relationship, I had to face the emptiness in myself. But luckily I found a good therapist at the beginning of this whole nightmare and he has helped me address the things about ME that I needed to begin addressing.

 

I could tell you to save yourself a lot of heartache by being firm in your decision that moving on is best, and to not feel guilty but GOOD--for you and for him--that you recognized the dead end this relationship is for both of you in its current configuration and took the necessary actions. It seemed, in your earlier posts in this thread, that you were doing this and I felt so much admiration for you. But I know from my experience that it's necessary to go through some guilt and some delusion that you left too soon and that he is only a few changes away from being the man you felt you saw beneath his issues. Know that each time you feel that, it says something about YOU that you need to examine and address.

 

And you must, must, must be very loving to yourself through all of this. You already have shown yourself, in this relationship, to be a loving, loyal, caring person capable of deep love for another person. This will serve you very well in life going forward; believe that. Now you just need to work on your feelings of self-worth, and the deep-seated stories you're telling yourself (perhaps you're not even aware of it yet) about your unworthiness. You need to be confident in yourself that you are worthy of, and should hold out for, real love that meets your core needs for mutual respect, care and trust. And the way you get THERE is by learning to give it to yourself. The very fact that we end up in relationships like this is proof that we have some learning to do in this department.