definitely over with MM [UPDATED: Just Friends?? Or impossible?]

May 4, 2017

The fact that he is stating that his wife is saying she will change and he is going to give her another chance speaks VOLUMES of the type of man he is. He is taking no responsibility at all for his marriage being on the rocks. I mean, maybe if he didn't cheat multiple times... because trust me, we can ALWAYS pick up on something. Maybe we can't put our finger on it, but there is something. And when we pick up on something, it will throw off that connection. And breed further problems in a marriage.

I wouldn't say this man loves you. Love is an action, you don't put someone you love through this much pain. He is addicted to you. He is scared of losing his wife. And of he loses his wife, he has you. And vice versa. Seems like this is a man who NEEDS his ego stroked. He sounds weak. Can't be alone. Etc.

First things first, take him off of that pedestal. He isn't that great.

When he told me what his wife said, he was just conveying what she literally said. He also talked about how bad he felt that she was saying that b/c no matter what, he did what he did for himself. Which is why he says he can't leave her right now. Because he did this to her, he is at fault and she is placing blame and pressure on herself thinking it was all her. He admits that he has been distant. That he stopped trying. Yes they had issues before me, but once I was in the picture, he didn't care to keep trying to talk to her about the issues. What they have is a communication problem and he absolutely contributes to that. But from what he says, the difference with them and us is that his wife is happy to keep things in and pretend everything is fine until she has had enough and just blows up. He can be the same way. Where as with me, all of our issues were confronted, talked about and dealt with. So yes, I can see where he was at fault for the marriage issues. Absolutely. I know he's not innocent. Nobody ever is.

I think the kindest thing he's done for me is let me go and Realize that I deserve better than to be in this back and forth situation. I think it's difficult for him but I appreciate him meeting with me and saying everything he said to me. He's human. He's going to slip up. It's up to me to keep that distance for myself. And I intend on doing just that.

I see his downfalls. I think being with his wife (married 2 years but together 6-7) for as long as they've been together is difficult to let go. I don't know if he's weak and afraid of being alone but I do know that there's an attachment. He cares for her. He has love for her. He should! I'd be more worried if he just walked away from her. I think he's overwhelmed. I think he's afraid to make a choice one way or the other. Is that b/c this is all so fresh or is it b/c he never will? I don't know. Too soon to tell probably. But thats not my problem. I have to do what's best for me. He is clearly doing what's best for him. I'll be fine. One day at a time.

May 4, 2017

The amount of pressure he puts on himself for the people he cares about? It has nothing to do with the people he cares about... It has everything to do with him. He is a weak, weak man. That is it. That is the bottom line.

It was good? So you mean to tell me, he was basically "cheating" your ENTIRE relationship, but it was good? I mean, my WH and I had some great moments while he was in the A, but I don't think of those moments as good at all. I don't care about all the good he was doing while he was in his A. While you may have been the OW, and you agreed to the situation, he was still with another woman. He was cheating.

I know it is so hard to see the reality. Trust me, I understand. But look at what you have going for you... you are an intelligent woman with a career. You got involved with a man who is weak. You don't have a life that is intertwined with him. Get out. Now. Don't waste your time on this guy. He isn't worth it.

Not saying he is a monster. He needs the validation from women. He is pathetic. Let him be someone else's problem (likely, many someone elses). Sounds like a guy that one person will never be enough for him because he isn't a complete person himself. He has some serious work to do on himself.

Girl, hold your head up. You are better than him.

May 4, 2017

I don't see the back and forth you're talking about. How is he going back and forth?

What I see is him, engaging in false reconcilliation with his wife ,while trying to keep you on board.

I don't think he's that confused at all. I would guess that what he wants is for things to go back to how they were: cake eating. Wife at home, you on the side and if you upset him, a ONS. He can't have that,hence all the drama.

He is not manning up and making a choice, he's trying to restore the old status quo.

Lostgirl, I know you're a bright woman and you keep saying you're not delusional but you spend an awful lot of time making up excuses for his pretty disgusting behavior.

He now has a golden opportunity to leave and be with you. He's not. He's notveven going back and forth. He is with his wife, while trying to keep you in his game.

I have no doubt that if you manage a clean,healthy extended period of NC you will gain new perspective to this whole mess. If you get past this, I think you'll be thanking your lucky stars for dodging a bullet. Seriously, there is someone so much better out there for you.

May 4, 2017

While reading your thread in the beginning you stated on 3 posts how you would never be the type to tell his wife but as soon as you found out the other girl had sex with him you gladly told his wife. You also stated how you were blocking him, was sorry for the pain you caused his wife in this affair but that didn't last long either. I doubt very seriously that the girl who told you they had sex just casually fell in bed with him. He more than likely told her things that made her think there was something between them and that's why she was clocking in for him and had the sex. He was very disrespectful by bringing her to you for a job and regardless of what she told you it probably wasn't the only time they had sex. You wondered why his wife wasn't more upset when she found out about the affair and something about she was actually laughing at their family function. I think it's because you nor the other girl are the only ones he has been doing but just 2 more of many and you would be smart to get tested for STDs. I doubt very seriously that the wife is the one begging him to stay but the other way around. It doesn't make sense that he he decides to stay though he's in love with you, has no children and is cheating with more than just one OW. He isn't a coward he's doing exactly what he wants to do and is exactly where he wants to be. The tears he sheds in front of you mean nothing and I'll bet his wife sees many of them followed with the ILYs. I hope that you will soon wipe the scales from your eyes and see this man for who he really is before you waste the best years of your life on nothing. When a man really loves a woman nothing can keep him from being with her. I hope you realize this soon.

I see his downfalls. I think being with his wife (married 2 years but together 6-7) for as long as they've been together is difficult to let go. I don't know if he's weak and afraid of being alone but I do know that there's an attachment. He cares for her. He has love for her. He should! I'd be more worried if he just walked away from her. I think he's overwhelmed. I think he's afraid to make a choice one way or the other. Is that b/c this is all so fresh or is it b/c he never will? I don't know. Too soon to tell probably. But thats not my problem. I have to do what's best for me. He is clearly doing what's best for him. I'll be fine. One day at a time.

He wouldn't be alone. He has you and sadly probably more he could be with if he left his wife.

Edited May 4, 2017 by stillafool

May 4, 2017

While reading your thread in the beginning you stated on 3 posts how you would never be the type to tell his wife but as soon as you found out the other girl had sex with him you gladly told his wife. You also stated how you were blocking him, was sorry for the pain you caused his wife in this affair but that didn't last long either. I doubt very seriously that the girl who told you they had sex just casually fell in bed with him. He more than likely told her things that made her think there was something between them and that's why she was clocking in for him and had the sex. He was very disrespectful by bringing her to you for a job and regardless of what she told you it probably wasn't the only time they had sex. You wondered why his wife wasn't more upset when she found out about the affair and something about she was actually laughing at their family function. I think it's because you nor the other girl are the only ones he has been doing but just 2 more of many and you would be smart to get tested for STDs. I doubt very seriously that the wife is the one begging him to stay but the other way around. It doesn't make sense that he he decides to stay though he's in love with you, has no children and is cheating with more than just one OW. He isn't a coward he's doing exactly what he wants to do and is exactly where he wants to be. The tears he sheds in front of you mean nothing and I'll bet his wife sees many of them followed with the ILYs. I hope that you will soon wipe the scales from your eyes and see this man for who he really is before you waste the best years of your life on nothing. When a man really loves a woman nothing can keep him from being with her. I hope you realize this soon.

He wouldn't be alone. He has you and sadly probably more he could be with if he left his wife.

There are a lot of things that I question or should question. However there is no doubt in my mind that these 2 never had anything going on. They worked together and were friends. She had a very serious boyfriend. He was the one that clocked her in and out. She did it maybe once or twice for him but as a "thank you" and not b/c he asked her to. I can believe almost anything else but when it comes to her, I know for a fact that it happened one time, at her insistence and he was weak and stupid and didn't say no or walk out. He then blocked her and completely cut her out. Which she admits. When she had no other way to contact him but through his work email, he told me about it. Their stories line up and she has no reason to lie for him or make herself look like the one who initiated it unless it were the truth.

I have no way of knowing what's really going on in their home and it doesn't matter. What matters is what he's doing to be with me and right now that's nothing. That's what I'm going off of. His version is believable and is in line with the type of person I've known him to be. Other WS have said they have been in similar positions. Does that mean he's telling the complete truth? No it doesn't. Is it possible? Yes. But again that doesn't matter. What matters is what he's doing. Maybe I'm blind or maybe I see what's really there which can't be conveyed in words to LS. I don't know. All I can do is focus on me and do this NC thing for me. Everything else will fall the way it should.

May 4, 2017

The amount of pressure he puts on himself for the people he cares about? It has nothing to do with the people he cares about... It has everything to do with him. He is a weak, weak man. That is it. That is the bottom line.

It was good? So you mean to tell me, he was basically "cheating" your ENTIRE relationship, but it was good? I mean, my WH and I had some great moments while he was in the A, but I don't think of those moments as good at all. I don't care about all the good he was doing while he was in his A. While you may have been the OW, and you agreed to the situation, he was still with another woman. He was cheating.

I know it is so hard to see the reality. Trust me, I understand. But look at what you have going for you... you are an intelligent woman with a career. You got involved with a man who is weak. You don't have a life that is intertwined with him. Get out. Now. Don't waste your time on this guy. He isn't worth it.

Not saying he is a monster. He needs the validation from women. He is pathetic. Let him be someone else's problem (likely, many someone elses). Sounds like a guy that one person will never be enough for him because he isn't a complete person himself. He has some serious work to do on himself.

Girl, hold your head up. You are better than him.

Thank you

And yes, I'm working on getting out. I don't plan on reaching out. He hasn't tried to contact me today so that's helping. It's just difficult b/c it's still fresh.

And like I've stated before- I still don't see what we had or his feelings as being fake. Maybe I will later. Maybe they're not fake. I can't think about that right now- it's too much. All I can do is look at his actions and his actions are doing nothing to "choose me". So I'm doing what I need to do for me.

May 4, 2017

I don't see the back and forth you're talking about. How is he going back and forth?
What I see is him, engaging in false reconcilliation with his wife ,while trying to keep you on board.
I don't think he's that confused at all. I would guess that what he wants is for things to go back to how they were: cake eating. Wife at home, you on the side and if you upset him, a ONS. He can't have that,hence all the drama.
He is not manning up and making a choice, he's trying to restore the old status quo.
Lostgirl, I know you're a bright woman and you keep saying you're not delusional but you spend an awful lot of time making up excuses for his pretty disgusting behavior.
He now has a golden opportunity to leave and be with you. He's not. He's notveven going back and forth. He is with his wife, while trying to keep you in his game.
I have no doubt that if you manage a clean,healthy extended period of NC you will gain new perspective to this whole mess. If you get past this, I think you'll be thanking your lucky stars for dodging a bullet. Seriously, there is someone so much better out there for you.

I see what you're saying and thank you. But I do see him flip flopping at least with his thoughts. I see him torn between being with the person he loves and staying with the woman he made vows to and feels a moral obligation to "work it out" with. As stated before, I have no way of knowing what's actually going on and it doesn't matter. I can only go off what I see and I see no actions or moves being made to be with me. So I need to go. And that's what I'm doing. It has to end one way or another and I'm doing this for me and my sanity.

May 4, 2017

I see what you're saying and thank you. But I do see him flip flopping at least with his thoughts. I see him torn between being with the person he loves and staying with the woman he made vows to and feels a moral obligation to "work it out" with. As stated before, I have no way of knowing what's actually going on and it doesn't matter. I can only go off what I see and I see no actions or moves being made to be with me. So I need to go. And that's what I'm doing. It has to end one way or another and I'm doing this for me and my sanity.

His thoughts may be flip flopping, but his actions are not. He needs therapy.

May 4, 2017

I am not trying to bury my head in the sand and live a romantic fairy tale. I just can't accept that what he and I had was fake and he's some type of sociopath who does things like this all the time. It's not who I've seen. It's not who I know him to be. When I texted with his wife I didn't get the impression that she had been in this situation before. She said she thought they were happy. That she wasn't in a fake relationship for 6 years. She seemed to be in shock and I believe she still is. She hasn't wrapped her head around what happened.

I've met his best friend and the first and only person who who knew about us for a while and he said he's never known him to do anything like this. This friend has cheated before and even talked about how MM gave him so much crap about it and even distanced himself. He said MM was nothing like him. I saw the struggle MM had to make time for me and balancing the W and I. I saw so much that makes it difficult for me right now to accept that it was fake and I was fooled for so long. Sure it's possible. But right now, I can't see that. It seems impossible to me. I'm focused on not speaking to him to end this flip flopping. That's all. Whatever comes from this space will come and I'll worry about it then. I have to take it one step at a time b/c otherwise I will end up losing my mind.

May 4, 2017

His thoughts may be flip flopping, but his actions are not. He needs therapy.

I agree with you. The thoughts are what are flip flopping and he does need therapy. He can't sort this out himself. But that's not my problem :-/ I can only focus on me and whatever he does is on him.

May 4, 2017

I agree with you. The thoughts are what are flip flopping and he does need therapy. He can't sort this out himself. But that's not my problem :-/ I can only focus on me and whatever he does is on him.

It is all just one giant mind ****. I'm the BS on the other side of the coin. With promises to change and that it is over and he wants nothing to do with her. I heard that before and he talked to her again. So whose to know what is real and what is not. The tears, the begging... I have seen it all before.

These men are pros at it. And it screws with us all. I have been married for 20 years. I thought I knew him. I thought I was absolutely certain he was done and would never speak to her again. I saw his pain when he realized the pain he caused me. I know this man... been with him for 2 decades. I know him. I was wrong.

I know I may be projecting on you, but I just see you with as someone with not as much invested... And I promise it can be so much worse. When they show you the person they are, believe those actions. That IS who they are. Don't spend your life with someone who can do this.

May 4, 2017

Sure it's possible. But right now, I can't see that. It seems impossible to me. I'm focused on not speaking to him to end this flip flopping. That's all. Whatever comes from this space will come and I'll worry about it then. I have to take it one step at a time b/c otherwise I will end up losing my mind.

The whys or what ifs don't matter to you right now, and honestly, they may never because why live in the past? It is what it is. All you need to do is focus on you, your life and staying NC, as you've said.

It's time to put YOU first. What he does is not your concern anymore. It's a huge load off your shoulders.

May 4, 2017

I just revisited your first post on this thread and I urge you to go read it again.

From what you wrote, to my eyes it appears that from September, this was all about him trying to end things (apart from a booty call in January that is) and you refusing to take no for an answer. YOU called his bluff (If you love me, you will leave your wife) and he didn't like it one bit.

He is a weak man, probably a people pleaser, a man not wanting to disappoint anyone and a man merely going with the flow and avoiding conflict, and taking what he can along the way, BUT finally he has had enough courage to split with you and qualified it with -

i texted him asking more questions and that I didn't mean to press and he said "yes you do b/c you always press even when I ask you not to" and I eventually asked "all i want to know is if you're dedicated to making it work with her" he said "yes". I said "so you're done with me? and just want her" he said "yes"

And now you think he doesn't really mean it...

I guess he does mean it and you need to move on, there is IMO nothing for YOU here. OW are in the main, supposed to stay in their box and not get ideas about replacing the wife, you, I guess, crossed the line and paid the price. Forget any "love", it is easy to say.

I guess though if you do accept the OW role, he will be fully on board with you again...

Go into NC with the mindset of getting over this affair.

If you go into NC with the mindset that he will see the error of his ways and choose you, then this will not work out well for you. It will merely prolong your agony.

Sorry...

(BTW the "pity play" is seen as the hallmark of the sociopath - be careful what you wish for)

May 5, 2017

I just revisited your first post on this thread and I urge you to go read it again.

From what you wrote, to my eyes it appears that from September, this was all about him trying to end things (apart from a booty call in January that is) and you refusing to take no for an answer. YOU called his bluff (If you love me, you will leave your wife) and he didn't like it one bit.

He is a weak man, probably a people pleaser, a man not wanting to disappoint anyone and a man merely going with the flow and avoiding conflict, and taking what he can along the way, BUT finally he has had enough courage to split with you and qualified it with -
And now you think he doesn't really mean it...

I guess he does mean it and you need to move on, there is IMO nothing for YOU here. OW are in the main, supposed to stay in their box and not get ideas about replacing the wife, you, I guess, crossed the line and paid the price. Forget any "love", it is easy to say.
I guess though if you do accept the OW role, he will be fully on board with you again...

Go into NC with the mindset of getting over this affair.
If you go into NC with the mindset that he will see the error of his ways and choose you, then this will not work out well for you. It will merely prolong your agony.
Sorry...

(BTW the "pity play" is seen as the hallmark of the sociopath - be careful what you wish for)

No he hasn't tried to end this since September but remained b/c I refused to take no for an answer. Yes we have taken "breaks" but we've ended up back on. But he comes back and resumes the "relationship" b/c he wants to. Not b/c I refuse to take no for an answer. You can't FORCE someone to be with you in any capacity. I'm not saying that we did was right or healthy but it was both of us. Not just me. This time however, we haven't done the whole sex thing. We talk and meet for lunch. But that's over too.

In reference to the part you quoted, he called me right after and apologized and said he spoke out of anger and frustration. I have tried to end it. Even by telling his wife what was going on and blocking. He's the one that brought all of this crap back with the tears and the drama. And I'm not innocent b/c I didn't have to speak to him but I did. Neither one of us is innocent and neither one of us has followed through with ending it and not speaking. The only thing I can kind of give myself some points for is to not have resumed the sexual component of our relationship. It's been almost 2 months.

And yes that IS the mindset I am going into NC with, as stated in many of my most recent posts.

FYI he did call today and I didn't answer. It's not much but it's a start.

May 5, 2017

It is all just one giant mind ****. I'm the BS on the other side of the coin. With promises to change and that it is over and he wants nothing to do with her. I heard that before and he talked to her again. So whose to know what is real and what is not. The tears, the begging... I have seen it all before.

These men are pros at it. And it screws with us all. I have been married for 20 years. I thought I knew him. I thought I was absolutely certain he was done and would never speak to her again. I saw his pain when he realized the pain he caused me. I know this man... been with him for 2 decades. I know him. I was wrong.

I know I may be projecting on you, but I just see you with as someone with not as much invested... And I promise it can be so much worse. When they show you the person they are, believe those actions. That IS who they are. Don't spend your life with someone who can do this.

Stories like yours remind me of how much worse things could be. I am so sorry! Thank you for your post. I'm sure it's not easy to read a story like mine as a BS. Knowing someone like me is at least partially responsible for the way you're feeling

I wish you all the best!

May 5, 2017

The whys or what ifs don't matter to you right now, and honestly, they may never because why live in the past? It is what it is. All you need to do is focus on you, your life and staying NC, as you've said.

It's time to put YOU first. What he does is not your concern anymore. It's a huge load off your shoulders.

That's my exact mindset! me me me. All me. I owe it to myself. The last year has been all about him. And her. And adjusting my life around his schedule. UGH.

May 5, 2017

Stories like yours remind me of how much worse things could be. I am so sorry! Thank you for your post. I'm sure it's not easy to read a story like mine as a BS. Knowing someone like me is at least partially responsible for the way you're feeling

I wish you all the best!

I just read stories like yours and others with the MM saying all these things and promising everything... And I just want to scream at everyone.... save yourself, RUN!!! Because if you get your prize... are you really winning? He's a cheat. Multiple times over. I'm saying, don't let yourself be like me.... 2 decades invested, kids, house, assets, finances, etc. Then you have so much more to consider than just whether to answer his messages or not call him. I envy the OW in our case, she gets to walk away. Yes, she is in anguish and crushed and upset, but I am all those things plus an entire life. Don't let yourself get an entire life with a known cheater.

Thanks for the well wishes... same to you.

May 5, 2017

FYI he did call today and I didn't answer. It's not much but it's a start.

You can always block him from calling you.

May 5, 2017

You can always block him from calling you.

No i can't. He calls from a blocked number.

May 5, 2017

No i can't. He calls from a blocked number.

I have learned the only way to truly get away from someone like this is to change your number. Which is a crap process, but even blocking private numbers doesn't stop it. There are apps that will give you a different number.

May 5, 2017

The tears are nothing but pure manipulation and he is doing the same thing with his wife. I was involved with someone who was separated (supposedly) and he did all the same things - crying, calling, showing up at my apartment outside, a lot of hysteria and promises that he was going to get divorced. Anger at me whenever I tried to let go. I waited 3 years. Guys like this don't easily let you go. I had to change jobs and literally move to break away. And then when I met my now husband months later, he was bitter about it and blamed me for not giving him enough security to get divorced.

Whatever. BTW - that was 12 years ago and the guy is still married/separated or whatever.

It's all an act.

May 5, 2017

He showed up at my job today.

Today is our last day in this location and next week we will be in a new bigger office (yay for growth!) that is further away from MM's office so our lunches will no longer be possible.

Let's remember that this is a fairly new job and the people hwre don't seem to know about the affair rumors and I'm hoping to keep it that way. Well he shows up and asks to go to lunch. I was afraid of a scene so I agreed with a smile b/c I do NOT want anyone asking me or inquiring about anything. I live in a large city but the legal community is small.

In a nutshell, he asked me for more time. He asked me to stick it out with him just a little longer. He says this is all brand new (the affair being out) and he doesn't know how to handle it and without me things make even less sense. He said he can give me space if that's what I want but he wanted to be clear that he has no intention on giving up on "us". He said this was a very hard time for him, acknowledged it was hard for me too and said there's a reason why we're both still here.

I didn't agree to give him more time. I told him I've given him enough time. That's when he said "ok I can't ask you to wait and I don't want to hold you back. I just want you to know that this is real. I'm not confused about us. I don't know how to leave right now with everything being so volatile". I said I can understand the difficult position he is in but I'm in a difficult place too. I asked him to give me time too. That his constant back and forth and professions of love with no action have really messsd with my head and I don't know what's real anymore. I told him I have started going to therapy (ok just 1 session but still) and he became upset and asked "so is that what I've driven you to? Now you need therapy?" I told him not to flatter himself and I'm doing it for me and the things going on in my life. Not him. He then asked if he could join. I said he should probably go on his own but I can give him some names if he needs one.

I said it was probably best if he just focused on himself/his marriage and if it doesn't work out then he can divorce and come find me and see if we can work but before that, this would be pointless b/c I know what I want and continuing to be his mistress is not on that list. He said he would agree to give me space and let me think without him breathing down my neck. I hope he keeps his word. He didn't try to call after work so that's good. I'm not going back on what I said: I need to not talk to him and work on ME. Now with us being even farther away I know there won't be another surprise visit.

Surprisingly I'm ok. I'm enjoying the fact that as far as he's concerned, I'm being pretty strong. He doesn't have to know that yesterday was a rough day for me. One day at a time is the only way to get through this.

May 6, 2017

You handled it well. Thankfully you didn't fall for his same old boring song and dance.

However, you can now reset your NC calendar. You probably feel "suprisingly good" because you got a little "hit" from seeing him.

BTW, mine also gave me the "I won't ask you to wait." How noble of them. Give me a break. As if he holds the control of what you do or don't do? He probably was waiting for you to say you'd wait. And the bit about therapy because of him? This is quite telling. All of his actions and now his words, show how he thinks the world and everyone in it operates around and for HIM. Selfish. Not love. I think you both love the same person the most. HIM.

He hasn't changed his modus operandi.

Back to STRICT NC if I were you.

May 6, 2017

Agree with Eight completely. Also, donuts to dollars, his offer to go to therapy with you is also selfish. It's not motivated by a desire to help and support, but because deep down, he knows any good therapist will advise you to run not walk away from the affair. He's worried about losing control of you.

May 6, 2017

You feel surprisingly ok and strong because you are still heavily involved in this affair and you are still feeding your addiction and allowing him to stroke your ego. It's like saying "I feel surprisingly good since I gave up smoking" while smoking a cigarette.

You won't move on until you stop seeing and talking to him and guess what? It's going to hurt. You will have days when you will feel surprisingly awful but those days wont last, they will become fewer until one day when you will realize you really are over him and you really have moved on and you really do feel surprisingly ok. However to get there you have to really end it. Stop making excuses for dragging this out and continuing to engage with him.

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